Why Asians Hit The Bamboo Ceiling In The Medical Industry Too

A new study shows that there are a lot of Asian doctors, but not a lot of Asians at those leadership positions in the hospitals. So once again, we are seeing a big Asian leadership gap, a.k.a. bamboo ceiling. And a lot of people are wondering, David, this is taking place in the medical field. So is it still racial prejudice or possibly is it that Asian culture is missing something? Yeah, we got to talk about it. This article was really well written. It's linked down below. The title is Asian-American doctors overrepresented in medicine and are largely left out of leadership. And you can see they provided a lot of data. And Asians experience a sharp, sharp decline. The higher levels of leadership they go in the medical world. 23% of doctors in America are Asian. Asians only make up 7% of the population. So heavily overrepresented at the entry level of doctor. But it drops all the way to 11% the higher you go up in the ladder. And no other race sees that marginalization. Guys, this got a lot of comments and there's a lot to unpack here. So please hit that like button and let us know if you guys enjoy the news and the commentary we provide here. We're going to go through the article real quick. There's a couple interesting excerpts, and then we're going to go into the comments section and our own takeaways. All right. Long story short, Andrew, anytime you see some sort of phenomenon like this, it's like a reason pizza, right? And there are different slices. But unlike a regular pizza, Andrew, the slices are all different sizes. Right. Yeah. And I think that obviously the bamboo ceiling, the idea of it is nothing new. It happens all in corporate America. OK, C-suite Asians, not in C-suite for the tech industry, right? For the tech financial industry, everything. But I feel like a lot of Asians will always push into the medical field because they were told it was a meritocracy and maybe to become a doctor. It is a pure meritocracy to enter the entry level of a doctor. But when it comes to leadership, which maybe there's different metrics for what you determine to be a leader, it is not a meritocracy. It's more political. It's not about who's got the smartest brain. It's not about who's just the pure best surgeon. It's probably about a lot of other things. Do people want to do people feel inspired by you? Can you manage different personalities? Are you a good face of that hospital or of that department? Would you look good on a brochure? Possibly. But yeah, I'm sure there are a ton of reasons, internal things that the Asian-American community needs to address themselves, as well as societal things that are good to useful to point out, but are a little bit obviously and with less in control and in terms of like Asians being able to control it. Right. Well, I mean, what are some things that I guess Asians can't control? And some of the things that Asians can't control? All right. Well, I guess one of the things that Asians cannot control is whether or not a group of people or a high level person sees them as a perpetual foreigner. Right. And this might be like maybe if you have a Chinese name or you're born in China and you're a doctor. Obviously, China is the rival enemy right now. So that doesn't help. Heidism is really big in the US. I think heidism is bigger over here than it is in Asia. Asians, let's be honest, stereotypically are going to be at a shorter median height than for sure, like white people. Right. I mean, I think anecdotally we would say that this is true. Right. Right, right, right. So but there's other things that I guess we are and are not in control of. For example, how well did you assimilate to American like pop culture? Like that comes into play. Not not when you're like a medical researcher and not when you're a quant in the tech world, but when you want to be like a cool CEO, bro. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, also, it comes down to networking. Right. Who do you know? Do do you get promoted by somebody who you had a prior, you know, connection with also your experience? Yeah, you're right. Can you schmooze? Yeah, it comes. How likable are you? All these different things, right? It's not just your brainpower. I'm sure there are a ton of other reasons, but we got to get into some excerpts from the article. And of course, we're going to get to the comments section and give our own takeaways. Andrew, they interviewed an Asian surgeon in the article, and he said that the most obvious parallel was the NFL, where the vast majority of players are black Americans, Andrew. But there are very few black head coaches and even fewer black team owners. Right. And obviously that's even that way in the NBA as well, for the most part. But I would also point to this quote from the article. And this kind of relates to the whole like lack of leadership and the whole drop off. It says this doctor was like, I've been struggling to get any kind of leadership roles. I've been told that many times that I have all the talent and the whole package, but I'm just not the right person. Now, how could this be? It's crazy to think that you could be told you have the talent and the whole package. Maybe this guy's even a fit. Maybe he's five foot ten, so he's not short. You know, he's not bad. Or maybe he's short and bald and he has glasses. And everybody knows how Asian, you know, men with their short bald with glasses get perceived in America. Right, right. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying if I had to provide a rationale. Right. And it's so weird to think about leadership because I know it's it's a lot of politics, man. It's not just when it gets to that. I think, again, you can work your butt off to become a doctor. As most people probably have all the information in your head. But but when it comes to leadership, I guess it comes down to so many other things. And it can be prejudiced. Yeah, I would say, though, that I actually know a lot about sports. Andrew, African-Americans are actually five X overrepresented in NFL and NBA, which is even more than Asians as doctors. Asians are three X overrepresented based off, I guess, U.S. population size. So right. I'm moving on to enter. Somebody said this is another issue in tech as well. In the article, 25% of the U.S. tech workforce is of Asian descent, but just 15% of the executives. Wow. David, this part said, you know, there's an old trope that even started in the 1990s. Asian-Americans are good at tests, but they're not good with people. This trope still exists, sadly. And obviously, to be honest, there it probably was driven from at least some volume of truth initially. This has to. So this is my thing, is that I think racial prejudice and cultural prejudice, let's say that I think is part of it. I think we can all agree it's definitely a factor. Now, what percentage of the pie does it make up? I think people can debate. But I also think that Asians do need to focus on the things that they can control. And I do think that and it has been noted on our channel and we've talked about it and through many articles. And this is not a mystery to anybody, that there are certain Asian cultural values that may not play as well in the West. Are you talking about Confucianism and deference to authority? Extreme deference to hierarchy. Exactly. Not being as assertive, not being loud. Maybe even your command of the English language doesn't allow you to do that as well. Right. So there's all these different factors that are playing against us when it becomes when it comes down to leadership. No, when it comes to leadership. I mean, and this sounds silly, Andrew, even laughing like this versus like, ha, ha, ha. Which was the laugh of a leader? No, that's see. And if all you did was laugh, but I can tell which leader, which manager I want and which manager I don't want because I'm a Western person. Yeah. This also said that here is the elephant in the room. Asian-Americans are overrepresented in medicine, while other people from other non-white racial and ethnic groups are struggling to gain entry even into the entry levels. For example, black, Hispanic and indigenous physicians, as well as native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders. So they are actually over. They're underrepresented, even just getting into medicine initially. So the fast career path of Asian-American physicians, specifically East Asian ones rising up the ladder, may seem less urgent or perhaps not important at all in comparison to the struggles of other groups. OK, so do you think that that is supposed to help explain why the chart goes downward for Asians versus going up? I don't know. Yeah, I think there is not what they're trying to do. It's basically just saying that it's just not a main concern that people are trying to address within medicine when there's other groups that aren't even becoming entry level doctors to begin with. Basically, East Asians getting fractionated at the from the low to the mid and the mid to the high tier of leadership within medicine is not a concern because they're already in at the entry level in such a high volume. Right, right, right. OK, OK. Also, there's this thing that says a comment from somebody on the Internet said, isn't it interesting that I never see the term overrepresented used for any other person of color group except for Asians? Asians are always Asians overrepresented. Yeah, I mean, it's overrepresented, specifically like educated East Asians. I really think about 60% of people do not consider them POC. Yeah, so for so this comment, even though it's technically right. I just know functionally in society, maybe 60 to 65% of people. I don't know. You know, it's tough to put a quantitative number on these things. Just don't even consider like a nerdy East Asian with glasses, whether it's a guy or a girl, even a POC to begin with. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And that is weird because sometimes the Asian group sometimes in certain surveys or studies will get grouped with the white group. Yeah, yeah, it's somebody. I mean, in the article, it says we've got several strikes against us. We're not getting credit for being a minority. We tend to be shorter and we just tend to do our jobs. Be quiet and not complain. That combination makes us easy to overlook. OK, so maybe shorter. You can't change. OK, and minority, you can't change. But as far as like just doing our jobs, putting our head down and not being assertive and not speaking up, obviously, those are things that you can change. They're tough if you didn't grow up doing it. But at some point, you have to say that is within my reach of making an adjustment and evolve. Do you think the aggressiveness in America means that like only, for example, Indian Americans are aggressive enough to rise up? Because, for example, Andrew, I believe what was Obama's surgeon general was Sanjay Gupta, for example, right? But in Canada, their top doctor is Dr. Teresa Tam. So they have an East Asian as Canada's like equivalent of like top doctor. But in America, it's like we could still have an Asian, but it would have to be an Indian, because obviously we've done videos in the past. And I've talked a lot about it with my Indian comedian friends or even stem Indian friends. They're just like, yeah, well, our culture is more argumentative. We are more able to handle the the the the Western American gladiator field in terms of verbal jousting, at least possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, we did a whole video about that, about Indian CEOs. You guys can watch it down here at that link. But yeah, I mean, I think that there is I think that there is something to be said, for sure. The next comment, Andrew, was basically blaming Asian doctors for not being loud enough and not adapting to the right tone or charisma needed. So basically, this guy was like, no, I do not think it's racism about how East Asian doctors look. It's really more just a lack of information, possibly a lack of access to certain circles. It's just a lack of knowledge base for minorities in general. Do you think this comment did come from a white guy? And I think he was like maybe moderate left or moderate right. It's a very moderate comment, though. So he's like saying it's not your guys' genetic phenotype in your double helix. It's more just like what you do or you don't know in terms of how to act in any given situation. Yeah, I mean, of course, I think somebody who's not a minority is going to be more likely to say that. Like I said, man, between these two reasons, whether it's being Asian physically and culturally or just how you act and behave. Between those two factors in a pie, people can argue whether it's 50, 50, is it 60, 40, is it 70, 30? He's arguing that lack of knowledge base or lack of information is a third slice, because technically that doesn't really fit in either of those. I don't know. I don't know what he means by lack of information. But I would say I guess if I had a I'd be saying it's a different type of coaching you get when you're Asian and it's a different you get a different type of coaching when you're young. Yeah. Within your family, from your immediate local society. And then, of course, your larger macro narrative of the people who look like you in the country. Yeah, I think it is for the benefit, in my opinion, that Asians move forward acknowledging that racial and ethnic and cultural prejudice is a thing, but not believing that it's most of the reason. Now, whether it is, in fact, I don't think anybody can really tell and do like the math, but I'm saying as a person, almost you. It's better to just almost focus on what you can change and move forward and maybe acknowledge that there's always racial prejudice. You're saying trick yourself, overlook or underrated, I'm saying. And I think I'm just saying that's going to breed the best results. I'm not saying that is even more accurate, but sometimes being too accurate. It gets in the way of you moving forward and just improving. But of course, like I understand, I'm Asian. Like I, you know, we feel underrated in certain ways or there's certain things that we were raised doing. I always feel like our comedy is underrated. It doesn't penetrate outside of a certain sphere. Yeah, but maybe we're not talking about the same things as white comedians are. You know what I mean? Right, right. But no, it's true. Our topics are very different that we cover on this channel. Somebody said, oh, OK, Mr. White guy, just blame the victim. Put no onus on the bias of the gatekeepers. Must be nice to have such a simple mentality. Yeah, I just I don't know, David, I guess. This bamboo ceiling exists in a bunch of different industries, right? But if we're talking about any, I would say any industry, maybe in general, but lucrative industry, certainly like here, I think everybody's always thinking about STEM fields or high earning fields like old world finance. You know, tech medicine. But I think it could exist even in something for sure. Like I got a friend who's upper mid to low high tier in construction. He said he's got to act super masculine and super not Asian when he's talking to like get construction contracts. Dude, I think the only industry that there is not a clear evidence for a bamboo ceiling, David, for Asians, the only industry. Yes, I already know what you're going to say. Being a chef, Asian food, F&B, Asian food, F&B. That is the only thing that I've never heard of an actual bamboo ceiling. But is that because they actually generally would want an Asian to head like an Asian brand or an Asian restaurant? At least I don't know. I don't know, guys, but every single other industry sports, despite it's supposed to be supposed to being a meritocracy. Jeremy Lin got overlooked. Maybe that doesn't happen as much anymore now that Jeremy Lin has broke through. I know D1 scholarship. Right, right, right. OK, finance boom, medical boom, tech boom. Anything that's corporate boom. But did you think it's interesting that Asians are able to use the meritocratic system to get in the entry level and potentially maybe even breach the mid level? But once you get to upper mid and high level, which is more like the politics of it, the smoothing, the networking, the fraternity to fraternity of it all, the old boy networks, then the numbers dwindle dramatically. David, I don't I'm going to end off. I'm done with my thoughts here, but I'm just going to leave this here. Does this at all relate to the whole admissions thing about Harvard saying that Asians don't have good personalities? Like almost doesn't this help their argument or hurt their argument? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, here's the truth, especially for I believe what the article is referring to is a lot of really educated, focused, quote unquote, model minority overachiever type East Asians. Typically, you're if you are one of those people, you're going to come from a family that's also very Confucian. And, you know, there's this Korean guy who became one of the only lead heads of a medical school in the whole and in America over like a 20, 20 year span. And you know who he credits to learning his personality from? The son of a Hong Kong billionaire that he went to medical school with. He said that that was the guy that he tries to channel that guy's confidence all the time, because Hong Kong was more westernized for a long time. So so they spoke English for since birth. And that guy was the son of a billionaire. So he was super charismatic and like, you know what I mean? Like cool to Western people. Right. And this Korean guy said, yeah, I just knew him in medical school and I just tried to imitate him. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, but but how can every Asian from these like Confucian families where everybody's like, just yeah, yeah, just go be a doctor. Go be a doctor. How can you channel the energy of a billionaire son if you're not a billionaire son or if you've never been around it? Interesting. I don't know, guys. You let me know in the comments down below. Again, you know, we're just here to talk about it, obviously. You know, I want to see more doctors in leadership positions, but it's just happening in every industry. So we got to ask the tough questions. Anyways, guys, let me know in the comments down below. Thank you so much for watching. And let us know if you obviously, guys, you know, a lot of reasons for a lot of things are like reason pizzas with a lot of different slices. Is the slice where it's on the Asian-American community's behaviors and knowledge base a bigger slice or is it more the societal perception from the outside, a.k.a. racism? What do you think the percentage breakdown is? 50, 50, 60, 40, 70, 30, 90, 10. I don't know. Let me know. Until next time we out. Peace.