Michael B. Jordan & Charlize Theron | Actors on Actors - Full Conversation

Michael, tell us a little bit about just the phenomenon of Black Panther and just being involved in that and how that started. Did you, I mean, obviously you have a relationship with Ryan. Yeah, it's, you know, Ryan's like my guy. You know, we kind of started out in the film industry doing, you know, Fruitvale Station, The Creed, The Black Panther. And when he first gave me the call about playing a villain for the first time, you know, or antagonist, I like to call him because he's a little more complicated than a typical villain. You know, I was really excited, you know, to kind of have that conversation once he told me what the movie was going to be about and the kind of thematics and the themes that he wanted to put into it. I was really, really excited about it and watched the movie kind of grow and take a life of its own, you know, to kind of like... When did he bring it up to you? When was the first time you heard about it? Once I knew that Black Panther was going to be a part of the Marvel Universe and they were getting ready to do a standalone film and I knew Ryan was up for the job. As soon as he got it, he called me. Yeah, he gave me a call and it was just pretty much like... That is so nice. I got this role for you. I think you should, I think you should do it. I think it'd be a good move for you. And it was, it was a no brainer for me. Did you say yes before you read the script? Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's kind of how we work. You know, I know he wouldn't like offer me anything that wouldn't be like a good look, you know, in the long term. And our shorthand is incredible and our relationship is there. So it's like, it's super unofficial, like, not the traditional way. That's kind of my relationship with Jason Reitman, except for he won't let me play anything other but miserable, a miserable woman. Is that what it is? That's it. Yeah. He just, he just loves it. He's like, I just love seeing you miserable. Well, I mean, you make people feel like, what was it? Miserable? No, you make people feel like, it's an empathetic quality that I think you have to make people like just lock in with whatever emotions you're going through at the moment. People just seem to feel exactly what you're what you're going through. Are you okay? Yeah. Oh, it's milk. I make milk. What was your prep like on telly? I just ate. That was pretty much it. I just ate a lot. I, you know, from the time that Jason works really fast. So from the time that we pretty much got the first draft from Diablo Cody, we were on set three months later. So his prep is really quick and he likes to work fast. And I weirdly like that too. Like I, I think there's this strange thing. I don't know about you, but sometimes I feel like I look at relationships with me as an actor and a director is kind of like a marriage. Not that I've ever been married before. So I don't know if I should go by that, but where you have to meet your partner in the middle sometimes, right? Like you might not work the same way or there, there might be a way that you like to do it more than you're a filmmaker, but then you realize you have to do that in order. You can't just have it your way. No, not at all. It's definitely like that middle ground with Jason. There's no middle ground with Jason. It's like we work exactly the same way we like, like we're like the same person on set. It's very strange. Um, so it was, it was pretty quick. I mean, I, from the time that it's a little bit like your story with Ryan, where he heard the idea from Diablo and called me immediately. So it was one of those things to where I, you know, I said yes, before I even looked at the script because I knew what Diablo was going to do exactly would be great. And then the, knowing the idea and the concept around it, it wasn't so much that I had to like prep for it. It really kind of just came from a mixture of my own journey as a mom. My, my second one was, uh, when Jason pitched this to me was a newborn. Um, and so I was, I was literally in Marlo's world when this idea came to me and when, um, Diablo was writing. And then I also just have really, really close girlfriends who, who had a really hard time with postpartum depression. And it's. Well, isn't that weird? Like somehow, like when the moment, like where you are in your life and you get a project that, that speaks directly to you, it's like where you're at, like what you're going through emotionally or mentally that it almost doesn't seem like work. So when somebody was like, well, what was your process and getting into this? Actually, I was just being me at the moment. I was just living life in front of the camera. Did you, what project was that for you where you felt like it just kind of like was your life at that moment? I think for me that would, that was probably creed one, creed one for me. Um, just kind of like wanting to come into my own, you know, at the time I think I was like 26, 27, uh, and wanting to feel validated as an actor. I feel like, you know, um, to myself though, you know, I kind of wanted to like have that self-confidence that I could, you know, carry a film that, that I could, you know, um, be completely believable and, and, and, and just all the little actor insecurities that we have, that I kind of put everything, um, into that first film, into that character. And it seemed like, you know, the decisions that Adonis was making throughout that film, I personally had thought about at one time or another. So to kind of see that kind of like, I don't know, to have that outlet at work was, uh, was, was fun. It was, it was needed. It was like a therapy session, I guess. You're so good in those movies. So good. Thank you. Thank you. That is, I mean, that's a, that's a crazy physical, I mean, you're in great shape, but you look like a boxer. It's insane. And that's the thing. Thank you. You look more like most a boxer than most boxers. Thank you. No, it's the truth. I'll, I'll take that one. I wanted to live like a fighter too. That's why I just hung out with like all boxers. You know, I went through their daily routine. Like I probably, I basically told him like, don't treat me like an actor. Like, please just like, don't take it easy on me whatsoever. I needed to feel, you know, the bruises. I wanted the, you know, the calluses on my hands. I needed, I needed to feel that. So when I stepped on in that ring, there was no doubt in my mind that I didn't get the work in to be that person. So it helped out a lot. Helped out a lot. Awesome. But you don't think I could beat him? Is that what you're trying to say? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, I'm not going to be here forever. And what's that supposed to mean? It means you got to do some smart thinking. Oh, you want to talk about smart decisions, Rock? You in this house all alone. Question. So being from South Africa and, um, you know, and having a daughter that's from there as well, like what type of, I don't know, like, how did you feel like if you saw a black panther at all? I'm not sure if he did. No, no, no, no. But like what type of impact did that have on you? Like when, like, I don't know, like what did that make you feel? So yeah, I was born and raised in South Africa during the apartheid era. And I am very much a white African who lived and, and, and thrived under a tremendously dark circumstances. And that really marks you as a person, whether that's your ideology or not, you're living in it. And you know, when you're young, you don't know anything different. And then you grow up and you see the rest of the world, you're lucky enough. Like I was lucky enough to see the rest of the world. You know, something is wrong, but you don't necessarily understand the, the broad strokes of it. And I was, you know, I was a young girl, so I was 15 in 91 when, uh, when apartheid was dropped. So I didn't realize until I think in my late twenties, thirties, how much anger I had inside me and guilt for just living my life circumstantially in a place that I didn't necessarily choose. Um, and weirdly it was the thing that drove me for the first time. Cause I've had some tragedy in my life, but it's the, it was this thing that draw that took me towards therapy very unawarely, like a therapist had to point that out to me. And I was like, why do you keep asking me these questions? And she's like, I think you have a tremendous amount of anger about all of this stuff. So for me to watch black Panther as the person that I am, and I know this sounds crazy to a lot of people, but as a very emotional thing, it was a very emotional thing for me to watch it. Yes. I have two young girls, two young, beautiful black African-American girls. Um, not from South Africa. No, no. I wish they wouldn't give me a baby, but I, I had a very emotional reaction to it. I still do when I think about it because I cannot wait to share that movie with them. I had this like weird reaction watching it when I, I said to myself, I cannot wait for my girls to be big enough to share this with them. Wow. That's amazing. Because it's so much more than just whether you're from Africa or whether you're African-American or it's a, it's such a bigger thing than that. That movie broke so many glass ceilings across the board. Not just the fact that there are women in power and that they're black, beautiful, strong African-American women, African women. I know that you guys shot with a lot of South Africans as well. We did. We did. And that my children are going to benefit from that. But that I got something very cathartic out of that. Yes. You know, really, really cathartic out of that as an African woman, as a woman, just in general. I mean, it's so empowering to watch that movie. No, that's incredible. I never thought about that perspective. That's, that's pretty. Yeah, that's, that's, that's very moving. My pop said Wakanda was the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen. He promised he was going to show it to me one day. You believe that? What did you think when you were either making the movie or after you saw the movie? What did you think the impact was going to be? Was it anything close to what it ended up being? No. Across the board. I think when I first. Did you know you were working on something this as special? I knew we were working on something special. Yeah. After reading the script. Knowing what the cast, who the cast were going to be. Knowing Ryan's going to be telling the story. Yeah. You kind of know what you're going to get from him. It's going to, it's going to mean something that's going to be very grounded, no matter how fantastic and how big the world is. It's going to, it's going to really like hit home. And while we were filming it, you know, we had moments on set where we all kind of looked at each other like, wow, that was really powerful because the process of, of, of, of the conversation that we were having in rehearsals and figuring out what each character wanted from that perspective. Like I found myself having a conversation. I didn't know I needed, you know, being, being African-American and, and still feeling disconnected from Africa. Yeah. It's a complicated thing. And in hearing stories about Africa before I had a chance to go visit, you know, from your elders, from people who, you know, you know, my mom, my grandmother, you know, you know, elder family friends, but they've never been to Africa either. So this is from an outside perspective. So to be able to kind of have conversations with people from Nigeria and from Ghana, you know, and, and, and from South Africa and actually hear what it, what their perspective on us is as African-Americans, I was like, man, wow, this is some, this is very, very complicated. It made me question identity, you know, and where I, where, where I came from. And so anyway, getting back to when we were filming it, I knew there were, I did a lot of growing, so it meant a lot to me and I knew it was going to be special, but I had no idea how the outside world was going to like, really like look at it and how it was going to impact them. So once I started, you know, obviously you see the, it goes viral, you know, you see all the memes and the social media element, you kind of, you kind of know that, you know, the culture, you know what I'm saying? And this generation is really picking up on it. But when you start, you know, seeing, you know, church groups and community centers and, you know, they're taking, you know, boys and girls club, they're going to take, you know, at risk youths, you know, to go see this film and you just see the entire community kind of get together and go see this film and support this film, breaking all the records, all that other good stuff is awesome. But when you see the cultural impact and you see the impact of other nationalities, other ethnicities that have the same visceral reaction to it, a sense of pride of where they come from. And during the press tour of that movie, seeing the journalists come in and like the traditional garbs and like hearing stories about how this movie encouraged them to kind of get back in contact with their roots and where they come from, it gave everybody a sense of pride. And I was like, wow, this movie is like global. It's not just, you know, the African experience, that's what it's framed in, but, you know, it gives everybody else access to that same type of self-discovery. And I think that's when I really started to realize the impact that it was going to have. And then of course, during Halloween, you know, you see all the costumes of, you know, the little like killmongers with the permanent marker beards drawn on their face and the little girls dressed up as Dora Milaje. And yeah, it was truly incredible. You know, yeah. So I think while we were making it, you didn't really realize it. And then in hindsight, it's like, yeah, we kind of did that. We made a big splash. That one's for the books. It's for the books. It is. Yeah. I mean, you can like make many mistakes now. Like I can just go ahead and- Yeah, you should just be like reckless, fearless, just jump off every building and take chances because you're going to be fine. All right. Hey, she said it. She says it must be true. You just live your life. I'm going to start living it. So you could just lock me up? Just bury me in the ocean with my ancestors that jumped from the ships because they knew death was better than bondage. As actors, you know, we, you know, have always been told what to do kind of from a, you know, from an actor's perspective. When did you want to start, you know, producing and kind of like controlling your own destiny and, you know, really controlling projects that you wanted to make? So I didn't, I don't know if I would have naturally, I think I would have because ultimately producing is just another way of storytelling for me anyway. And that kind of developing process and taking a kernel and making it grow and develop into something that ultimately takes you on this journey of discovery is really what we do as actors. It's just a shorter version of that journey. Sometimes as a producer, it takes years, but I, it came out of the necessity of wanting to control or not control, but protect. I think I was asked to do this film Monster with a first time director, Patty Jenkins. Nobody would know who she is. And she, she had never directed anything and she wanted to make a film that felt to me like she wanted to take some really, you know, big risks. And ultimately I knew where we were going to end up in a situation where we might be asked to not take that much of a risk and that she might not be able to fight for that just because of the position that she was in. And I felt like I had this luxury, why not use it? And so it came out of that necessity of wanting to protect her and the film. So that was almost 20 years ago. Yeah. And then that, that's where Denver and Delilah kind of came from. That's where Denver and Delilah came from. Yeah. And so we kind of like sharpened our teeth on that one. And that was an interesting one to sharpen your teeth on because, you know, we couldn't, we ended up fighting to make the movie that we ended up making. And it was great once we were actually on location, we didn't necessarily have our financiers on set. We were in, you know, crappy alleyways, so they didn't want to show up. So we were okay. And this was back in the day when it took like three weeks for dailies to get back to Los Angeles. Mail them in. Yeah. And the movie was only like 24 days. So we were like, you know, by the time they got, then they saw what we were doing and they didn't have enough time to freak out and stop the movie. Got it. But when we, when we finished the film and started to find a buyer for it, you know, we couldn't, everybody was like, it's a great movie, but I don't want it. I don't know what to do with this. And we were days, we were, I think a day away from signing a blockbuster deal for it to go straight to video. And it just happened that Bob Bernie showed up who, you know, is a huge reason why that movie even saw the light of day and that I got nominated and won an Academy Award for it. You know, miracles happen. Trust your gut. Trust your gut. I think it was your intuition telling you all along and you fought for what you believed in. And there's this moment where you realize, oh, wow, that feels good. That feels good to not buckle, to stay on the road that you set out to go on. And, and to do that with another woman was incredible experience to have somebody, when I had my moments of doubt, just go, no, we're making this movie. This is the movie we're making. And I was like, maybe I should smile more. Maybe, maybe I should just not. And she's like, no, you just keep, you know, and to have that kind of partnership, I think you can't replace it. Like that, that relationship that you guys have, that, that made the difference. Yeah. And that element of producing gives you another layer where you can kind of broaden it. Right. And I think for me now, I really value that relationship of like working with filmmakers in a way where I can bring to the table something that is helpful, some experience, but also a sense of, um, you know, like I've been through it enough to know that it's worth the risk. It's worse. Uh, and that's, what's so interesting about what's happening right now, because I think we are seeing the payoff for big risks. Like black Panther was a risk. Like, you know what I mean? That's a huge risk. Movies like Tully, obviously not as big a financial risk, but still a risk because who wants to go see a movie or this is what they say, who wants to go see a movie about postpartum depression? Well, you know what? 50% of the population out there are women. And I think 40% of them are having kids. So go **** yourself. You can edit that out. But that kind of attitude is what's changing. Right. And we're doing it because I think there is more diversity now in those, and we need more of it, but in those positions where, you know, Ryan can say, this is the movie I'm going to make. And he had to earn that, you know, and we have to work to make that easier, but it is an interesting place right now that I didn't necessarily feel we had 20 years ago. 20 years ago, an actor producing was a vanity deal. Exactly. It was the kind of thing that nobody thought you did anything. And if you did, they wouldn't really take you seriously. It was like, we'll just tell her she was in the meeting, but you know what I mean? It just didn't have any value behind it. And I think I'm benefiting from that because I started my own production company as well. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so serious, but that's the truth. You know, you guys have, you fought those hard battles, you know, in the beginning that made it, that got us to this tipping point where, you know, an actor can come in with, you know, start his own production company and not be looked at as a vanity deal and really put the work in and, you know, put the time in behind the camera and give notes and have an opinion on casting and where the story goes. And it worked out whether it be in, you know, on the big screen film or the small screen in television. I think it's, it's, we're definitely at a tipping point where, where, um, where actors have more opportunities to really, really have a, have a, um, a push and where that project actually goes. I don't want a stranger in my house bonding with my newborn every night. It's like a lifetime movie where the nanny tries to kill the family and the mom and survives and she has to walk with a cane at the end. Right. Well, we had a night, I don't remember that. I think for me, you know, making sure that, you know, inclusion, um, is implemented on every one of my projects that I'm producing. Um, the inclusion writer, um, was, was, was the first time I actually saw like a, you know, an official, official, uh, you know, a doc official document for it. Just like, okay, well, what is inclusion writer? You know, as a black actor, like I would have, you know, as a person of color, I wouldn't have thought about it. It's second nature. It's like, okay, of course I'm hiring like women, strong women, smart women. Great. Awesome. You know, you know, people of color, of course. Great. You know, people from different, you know, social backgrounds and communities, of course, like, of course, everybody's going to get, get on board. So to kind of like link up with a studio like Warner brothers, you know, and, and, and be able to help write their inclusion policy and collaborate with them on that. I think it takes a big company, a big studio like that to set a precedent. So everybody else feels comfortable or feels like, okay, you know, I'm not first money in, but if they did it, I'm going to do it. And I hopefully that example show by example, exactly. And then hopefully, you know, we'll see, it won't be as much of a thing. It could be the norm. You know, I think that's the goal is to make inclusion the norm. So it doesn't have to be talked about and discussed all the time. Um, that's great. Now that we have examples too, right before, when we were trying to fight this battle, it was like, well, you just can't do that. I mean, that's just never going to work. There's no audience for that, you know? And we've had, yeah, we've really kind of broken through those brick walls in the last 10 years. I feel like now you have examples to point out. There's no excuses for it anymore is what I'm saying. There used to be a lot of excuses for it. And they used, they used to hide behind financial reasons. It was never really creative. It was always financial. And now that you can actually shut them up with that, it's like the world is your oyster. It really is. And we're also giving representation to the next generation. So, you know, cause I think now, now it's a frenzy. Everybody's looking for inclusion. Everybody's looking for that diversity. Everybody's looking for that, you know, a pizza culture to say like, Oh, I have this. So I'm not that, you know, or, you know, I'm a part of this movement. But then is the reality of is like, well, there's not that many on the level that these studios and producers feel comfortable enough, but about giving that big budget to, or that, or that opportunity to. So I think it's going to take a little bit more time to kind of encourage and inspire these, these future students of film of, you know, directing of sound, you know, costume design, editing, you know, all the different, you know, departments that goes into making the film. Now they know that that's an option. So let me let, let that, they have time for that to become their passion so they can grow into those, those opportunities that are now waiting for them. So we're taking steps. Yeah. We took a lot of steps, but, but, but I think we have a long way to go, but we're, we're making progress for sure. We're making progress. We've both been in big blockbuster films. Stop bragging. Is that what it was? Humble brag? Humble brag. But, um, you know, Mad Max got a lot of attention during the awards, during the awards season and obviously the Academy Awards. I not only think, but fully believe that Black Panther, I would go as far as maybe win, but should definitely be nominated for the Oscars. And, you know, that is a huge change that's happened to, I think, and we need more of it. 20 years ago, making you, when you made a big action film, it was like you were selling out as an actor. Somehow you were taking the money and the work didn't matter. And that's really changed. Um, I think, you know, there were a handful of directors back then, like, right. Like Cameron Crowe. I mean, um, Jim Cameron, Peter Jackson. So those films always existed, but the idea that there was any value or any kind of creative artistic, um, cachet, like there was something that was Oscar worthy behind it was always kind of compartmentalized into visual effects, special effects, makeup. Like those were usually the boxes that got checked. And that's really changed now. I feel like the level of storytelling that I did as an actor in Fury Road was probably some of the most like complex storytelling that I've ever done in my career. And when you look at a film like that to just disregard it for which used to happen, didn't happen with that film. And I don't think it's going to happen with Black Panther. No, I, I, I, I think just adding to that, I think it's being able to work with somebody like Ryan, who's come from independent film, you know, at a Sundance made this $900,000 independent film with one camera, you know, in 20 days, by the way, so similar to Patty Jenkins, like the last film that she did was like 24 days, $4 million. It's insane. It is. But, but we, we stayed true to the character, the, you know, the, the world that we were building, the relationships that were inside that movie. And now you take a filmmaker like that and you give them resources, you give them a bigger budget, you give them a bigger world to play with, but the character and that, that true indie kind of, you know, art house kind of feel is still there. And I think that's one of the big differences now when, you know, you, you put somebody like Ryan Coogler, you know, in front of a, in front of a project like Black Panther, that, that plays into the bigger blockbuster world, the Marvel universe of it all. But it still feels like, you know, it's a project that could have went to Sundance, you know? So. It's just nice to, for me, it's really nice at least to not feel that pressure anymore that I definitely felt early in my career. Which is what? It was that, that shame of like, oh, you're doing a big blockbuster. Like, oh, you did. You've never felt that. Oh, you lucky bastard. Cause it was the gold. Oh no. It was a definite feeling of like judgment. Like, oh, I guess you're there in your career. Oh, I guess you needed the money. I guess that's, there was no other reason behind choosing to do something. And the weird thing was, I I'll be the first person to admit if those were my reasons. I like big movies. I love big popcorn movies. People are like, why are you in? Why am I in fast? Cause I love those movies. Like they are so amazing. So that shame I think has been erased now. And well, thank you again. No, I had nothing to do with that. I know big blockbuster movies are not, no, that's not my, I don't take any credit there. Uh, except for being lucky enough to be in Fury Road. But, um, I do think that having eliminated that has also made us more aware of what audiences really want. And that kind of snobbish creative behavior that either came from, you know, the creators versus the studios of like guessing what people like, like that's been fully eliminated because now we can see what audiences really love. The box office don't lie. And it's just really nice to be able to go tell a good story and not compartmentalize it, to not try and label it, or to put it in a genre, to just go and make a good film and to not have this fear of trusting filmmakers like Patty Jenkins or Ryan Coogler to go and actually give them the resources and see what will happen. Magic. Like there you go. Exactly. Yeah.