Selena Gomez: Songwriting, Collaborating with 6LACK and Kid Cudi, and Mental Health | Apple Music

And two. Hi. Welcome back. As you heard, Selena Gomez is releasing her brand new album, which is called Rare. We're now joined for part two... And I hope you like it. ...by her esteemed colleagues, Justin Tranter, Julie Michaels. Great to see you. I like that. Good afternoon. Great to see you, darling. Good afternoon. This is part of the loyalty crew. Hell yeah. This is part of the crew that, if I may say, is someone who... You're honest with me. I'll be honest with you. Do it. Up until Revival, I can't say I was an expert in Selena Gomez as a musician. Yeah. It was your collaboration as the three of you that really got my attention. Yeah. It was when I felt like, oh, wow. There's something really unique going on here. And it's like my favorite kind of subversion, which is taking what I thought I knew about somebody and ripping it to shreds. Yeah. It's my favorite. I love that. So that, to me, 2015 was when it kind of started for me. And I wonder what those kind of first days for you guys were like and how you got to a place where you could start to rip it to shreds. I mean, I'll just speak personally. My intro to Selena came from this little boo-boo. I was in a band for a long time, which we've talked about many times. But when I first started writing songs with and for other people, she was like the first collaborator I met who was like, oh, you want to talk about really weird sh**. And she and Selena had already worked together. And she was like, Selena likes to talk about weird sh**, too. And so then— You also just wanted to talk about real sh**. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Which is so exciting for writers like us who want to write only from honest opinions. Yeah. And I think that they made it okay for me. You know, I don't like going in and— I go in and we usually talk for hours just about everything. And then usually we pick up things. I think you understand the ways of a room when it comes to writing. It's like the more that we talk about, the more detail we go into, the more it's easy for us to write about. And obviously it takes a level of comfort and a level of trust. But you are pretty much an open book. You'll go in and you'll be like, this is what's happening. Please help me make art out of my misery, basically. Yeah, basically. It was at that point. I think when we had started working, it just felt so natural. And it felt like they believed in what I was saying. Not that anyone around me didn't. It was able to take it to a place where I was so excited about the music. This meant more, you know? And I love revival and what we did with that. But then, you know, transitioning into what we did now. There's a lot more stuff to untangle, too. There's more pain to write about. I have to ask because you seem really well and really healthy, and I want to. And you've got friends on the couch now. You've been dealt with some real challenges with your health. And after you met Justin and Julia, you went through one of those again in a significant way. And I'd actually like to ask Justin and Julia. When Selena came back to work, came back to write, did you notice a difference? Did you feel there was a change in the way she approached her music after she'd been faced with that? I don't know. We've always been so close and so honest with each other. But I did definitely see you in this album, like what you mentioned before. Her confidence in what the album should be and what the music should be. Your confidence definitely. She was always like, this is what I want to talk about. This is what's happening. But this time, more melodies were coming directly from her. More production ideas were coming directly from her. More journal entries. More full journal entries. Is it related, do you think? Do you think you came out of that going, you know... Well, first off, I'm a huge advocate for mental health. I have this dream of mine that's beyond all of this, where I think that personally it should be required in schools to be taught dialectical behavior therapy. There is something I read wherein, I think it was the 50s, the 14-year-old kids of today have the same anxiety and depression as a 40-year-old in the 50s. That says so much. And I don't know why that perhaps doesn't shake people up a bit to where maybe there should be more of that accessible. I agree. But I am glad that it is being discussed more. I'm glad that we are having the conversation. But it does, it saved my life. Yeah, 1000% I needed to know. Yeah, and stopping to know that it might have been bigger than something I could control. And I think to what Justin was saying, it is a huge part of how I was able to release it and let it go. And sometimes we would just even write songs that were like just to purge things out. And like, that's never going to see the light of day. But it's just, you know. That verse is not allowed to ever see the light of day. Exactly. I love that process. I love the fact that you're willing to go in there and kind of clear out the tank before you actually get down to the pure stuff. Yes. Well, you don't even know you're doing it. You're just like, okay, let's write this thing saying whatever we're saying. And then you finish and you're like, okay, that was really fun, but no one can ever hear that for whatever reason. Right. Wait, wait, that's a good word, fun. We've covered some heavy ground in this, right? But this is a fun record. There's fun songs on this record. There's one called Fun. Yep. Those two. Of course there is. I mean, that's just, man. Okay, we'll get to Fun in a second, but I have to say, like, you love words and you love words. Like, that is a perfect marriage. And so when you guys first connected and started doing that, that must have been fantastic. And also to move into this album too. Like, what's one of your favourite songwriting moments on this record, the two of you, you think? If you can find a common one. Lose You To Love Me happened when I had come home from tour. It was on Valentine's Day that we wrote it. And I think that's probably one of my favourites. That is a powerful moment on Valentine's Day. That's like, wow. Yeah, right? And it was also our first time seeing you. Yeah. In so long. Since I got back. I think it was just one of my favourites, just because we were all, like, reunited again and doing it again. And where had you been? Where were you coming back from? Treatment centre. Wow, and so when you walked in that room, did you have a line or an inkling or an emotion that you knew you had to cover, or did you just let it happen naturally? Well, usually Julia texts me. It's kind of like how it works when everyone's kind of getting in the studio. When she asked me, I felt it was kind of overdone, the subject. And I just said, I'm sorry that this is what I'm going to give you, but I'm still not fully done with this. She's like, got it. And so when I walked in, and it was literally just the piano and the chorus and a bit of the first verse, and I just, like, sat there. And I tell people this, too, because it was also such a very raw moment. A, I had just gotten back, but B, we were in the bright daylight, you know, and that's not normally how you're maybe talking about something like that. And then, you know, Julie had to leave. Well, we did the second verse, and then you guys did the bridge. Yeah. Without me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it, got it. And you were FaceTiming me on my way to New York. I was like, okay, we know these lyrics are great for the bridge, which is now the outro, but we need your approval on the melody. Because even though she's the queen of words, she also writes some of the best melodies of all time. Of course. Definitely. And she was like, yep, approved. And we're like, okay, good. That was it. You know, it was just done. So crazy. And it was very quick. I feel like the ones that come the quickest for us are usually the ones that feel the most right. Right. Because we're not overthinking it, and we're just in it. It's a human album. Like I said, it's a human album. It covers a lot of ground of what it is to kind of feel a lot of things from the very deep right through to the frivolous, you know. And they're as equally important as each other. Yeah. You can't live deep all the time. You'd go crazy. Sometimes you just need to write a song like Crowded Room. There is this married couple that I'm friends with. They're older, and they're awesome. And they had told me this story, which was really sweet, very cheesy, but adorable. They do a lot socially. So they're in rooms a lot. They're with a lot of people. And one of their things that they do is that they're not always together, which I love. I admire. They're like, we don't really stay in every moment. We go and do our own thing. And throughout the night or day or whatever they're doing, they'll just kind of make eye contact and do this and then turn away, which means you're my number one. And it's just a check-in. And it's kind of cheesy, but I thought that was so sweet. And so the concept of Crowded Room and it feeling, you know, that it's just you, you two, is very romantic, and it's fun. And then to get Black on it was awesome. Yeah. I mean, you picked your collaborators brilliantly. I mean, why did Black come to mind, I mean, apart from being a great melodic writer and a fantastic artist? So we had discussed features, and at first I didn't want any. Yeah. But we were kind of going through what, you know, who would A, want to do it, but would sound great and compliment. For me, it's his tone and it's his voice as well. So it's kind of the rapping part, but it's the singing. So I was blown away when I got his cut, because obviously they go and do their thing, and so it was awesome. Except for the Cuddy thing. I mean, the Cuddy thing sounds like it was far more of a genuine old-school collaboration. Yes. How did that come about? I have to ask. I mean, he's one of the cornerstone artists of our time. Yes. So I went into the studio with MNEK and Madison. Everyone was kind of saying, maybe we should do up-tempo. And I said, I don't know, let's try something acoustic. Messed around with that. It didn't like it. It didn't work. We scratched the idea. And I kind of got exhausted, so I said, I want to do something weird like Kid Cuddy. And I mean that in a compliment. And I didn't know what that was going to be, so we were listening to different sounds, but I just had that melody when they were saying, what does that mean, you know? And I'm like, something where he's so good at storytelling, but changing it up with every line, it almost has a character to it. And so that was when… He does have a very distinctive melodic sense about it. Yeah. I mean, it's very there. You know who you're listening to. You know, that's when the melody came about, where it has that kind of sing-song, like playground type of chorus. And so we had nothing to it. It was just that. But then we did the verses, and my A&R came in. I said, this is who inspired it, and how do you like it? I was really excited about it. And without my permission, which will never happen again. Wow. Because I have a major fear of rejection. And so I think they know that I also don't… It's not take advantage. It's just like I'm scared to ask artists, especially certain artists that are particular. So someone sent the record to his management. Apparently he had heard it that exact day, and he loved it. So then they told me, and I remember exactly how it went down. I was like, what? I was like, oh my gosh. No, you're kidding. And then I was like, how? How the hell did he know? And then it was that moment where I found out, and I was kind of like, yes! Amazing. I'm so excited. And you were so fired? No, there was a bit of just, I was a little annoyed, but it was perfect. And so he wanted to have a phone call, and that's when I had told him, as far as production-wise, I said, I would trust you on this. I've built this part up, and if you like it, I know kind of, of course I know your ability, and what you can see, so I'd actually love to know what you feel, and hear what you feel for the record. Then he came to LA, and we were in the studio for two days. It was very, very scary at one point, because giving, cutting notes is like the scariest thing in the world to me. But I had ideas for the intro and stuff, and his response to that made me feel so comfortable, because it ended up working, and it was so great that it happened that way. Surely you can finish off an experience like that, and it gets you somewhere closer to not being so scared to ask, and trusting yourself more. For sure. Because you've got two of the best writers in the world on your team, and you've got Cudi. Why are you making that face? Is that too much? She doesn't like compliments. I love them, by the way. One of the greatest songwriters of our generation, and his sidekick on your team. It's kind of vice versa. I guess I'm trying to get at, and I don't want to come across as overly concerned or patronizing, but yeah, through all the achievements of your life, and all the work you've done, the work and everything, the journey you've been on to 27, a very pivotal year, an important year. Surely now you can think about this album and the kind of people that ride for you on this album and want to be a part of it based on the quality of the music, but also just what an honest and genuine person you are. Does that resonate now? Are you able to acknowledge and appreciate that? I think that's how I've continued to have a career, is that I'm very okay with speaking about myself through that. I think that's truly what has sustained me, and I don't do it purposefully. I do it because it's necessary for me. I came from Disney, who I have the utmost respect for, and they changed my life. But when you're coming from a machine like that, you end up losing a bit of that vulnerability because you are meant to carry something, which is carrying that brand and making sure that you are being a respectful person that families are okay with and that kids can look up to. And so I had dealt with that for so long that I had been conditioned. And when I chose to do Spring Breakers, that was a huge moment, you know, and it's very controversial, and it was definitely one of those moments. But it just slowly happened where I didn't want to have to be okay. I needed to say something because it got to a point where everyone else was saying something, and that would drive me crazy. So that's why I'm always really adamant by saying if it doesn't come directly from me, it's definitely most of the time, 90% of the time, not true. I was able to gain control of that, and I think that's when everything real started happening for me. And Good For You was the starting point for music in that world. Without sacrificing vulnerability is the important point, and that's why that song is so important on the record. It sits in your album to me deliberately. It's the centerpiece of the album, I think. That song. Thank you. And I think that that message that you're saying there of like, all right, even through all of that, like I'm still going to be that person that's going to lay it on the line. Right. But now I have expectations where it's like if I were to do this or if I were to give you, are you strong enough? Are you capable of being someone that's going to be in my life? That's how I approach things now. And I'm not being conceited. I'm saying it's actually an honor to be with me because I think I'm a great person and I love people deeply and I won't tolerate ever being treated the way that I have been. That's the song. It's not just me being like, I'm still vulnerable. It's like, well, I am, but I need these things for you to get that from me.