Robert Gunn - 1680 Pueblo Revolt Lesson from The O'Rourke School For The Gifted

All right. I think this is on. Okay. It's on. Hey everybody. Welcome to day five of the O'Rourke home school for the gifted. This is the time where I typically teach the American history lesson. And this first subject that I'm trying to tackle is the history of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. And over the last four days, Molly and Henry and their brother Ulysses, he's going to join us soon, uh, aided by, um, their mother, Amy, uh, have been going through the history of, um, the migration to the Americas. So out of Africa, 70,000 years ago to the East coast of Asia, 40,000 years ago across the, um, you know, bearing land bridge 20,000 years ago, all the way to the tip of South America, 10,000 years ago. And we've been talking about, um, the development of civilization in the Americas. We've studied the old next civilization. What, what is the, the community on the Lake on the shores of Lake Titicaca that we were talking about? Um, take a one. Do you have it in your, in your notebook? Tiwanaku, Tiwanaku, uh, on the shores of Lake Titicaca was at the year 1000 AD bigger than Paris, France. Uh, we talked about the development of the concept of the number zero, which is a mind blower for me that happened independently in the Americas, the Neolithic revolution that happened here, uh, not too long after it happened in the fertile Crescent in the Middle East, um, writing pyramids, all that stuff today. Um, we're going to jump ahead to the year 1680 and the Pueblo revolts in Santa Fe and other surrounding Pueblos. And we're going to invite in a really good friend of ours named Robert Gunn, who is a professor at the University of Texas at El Paso. And Amy, I was supposed to have his, uh, his bio up so that I can read it. Yeah. Will you read it? If I pull it up, would you read it? And then we're going to have Robert come in. Um, here we go. Will you read Robert Gunn as an associate professor? Hello everybody. Robert Gunn is associate professor of English at the University of Texas at El Paso. He is the author of technology and empire languages, literature, and the making of the North American borderlands published by the NYU press, which was the winner of the 2016 early American literature first book press. Most important is the husband of John Perillo and the father of Francis, also known as Franny and Henry G. Word. So, um, in, in order to provide better instruction to our kids, and then we thought we'd throw this open to anyone else who's interested. We've invited Dr. Gunn to come join us today and talk to us about the Pueblo revolts. So, um, if I can figure this out, um, and, and Robert, if you're on, if you could make a con, here we go. Let's see if we can figure this out, guys. I see Kano. Um, see Deborah Peterson. I see Tim. I see Amy. I see Samantha styles. What's up styles. Um, I see Connor Flynn. I see Christie. Um, you know what Cynthia do? Did I need to be friends with Robert before we started this? Oh, okay. That would have been good to know. Um, do we need to restart? Will you, will you text Robert? Ah, those are questions. Let's see. Go. Oh, we found them. Boom. Samantha says hi Molly and Henry. Okay. We're ready. Waiting for Rob done. That's that's his screen. Roberto. Hello. Are you in a black hole? There he is. Hang on a second. My camera's facing the wrong way. I think we need Franny to help him out. Well, Kaka. All right, Molly. While, while we try to get a Dr. Gunn on what, what do we know about the Pueblo revolt in, in what state? Like what, what's in, in what is New Mexico now? We're going to try to get Robert done. Um, so these are, um, villages in New Mexico and what year did the Spanish come in? There you go, Robert. Um, something's blocking your camera when it's facing you for some reason. Yeah. For some reason. So do I, oh, there we go. I can see you. Hey, that is a hell of a beard. You've got going on. Oh my God. Is that what I really look like? No, it's like Howard Hughes back from the dead. Is this all post, um, you know, uh, shelter in place and social distance or has this been 10 days? No. No, this is a, yeah, this is still, it's, it's, it's a novelty beard. Um, since like, you know, uh, January there, but it's divided. So it's not going to last. It's not going to last. Well, you look really good. I like it. I think you should keep it. What do you guys think? Keep it or lose it? You got a thumbs up from Henry and a kind of a, uh, yeah. Henry likes it. Franny does not. Jonna is very tolerant, but her, her silence on the matter is eloquent. So, um, it's, uh, it's, it's not, it's a novelty. So let me share with you, Robert, what we know. Hey, Franny, you want it shaved? Yeah. Um, let us tell you what we know about the Pueblo revolt. And then we want to ask you some questions. Okay. And then correct us on, on any of the facts that we, that we have wrong. So our understanding is that the Spanish come into northern New Mexico around 1540 and, um, and their invasion is, is really brutal. Um, there are some, um, significant battles. Uh, there is, um, the, uh, Pueblo people to produce food like maize or, or corn, uh, textiles. What else guys? There's something else. But, but maybe not avocados there, but anyhow, they, they, they were, I don't know if the word is enslavement and I know there were slaves. I don't know if that's what first happened in 1540, but the Spanish occupation of that area, uh, is just brutal from, from, uh, one day on yacht day in 1598, uh, cutting off the feet of every man or cutting off the foot of every man over the age of 25 in the Akima Pueblo after their uprising. Um, just, just terrible. And there is this precipitating event, uh, around 1680, where the Spanish governor, whose name was Trevino, I think Trevino, um, arrest some of the medicine men. This is according to Wikipedia, by the way, that's my source. Uh, and, and he hangs three of them. One of them commits suicide and then publicly whips the others. One of whom is Popeye. And, uh, and then he then goes, he's in released because there's, um, uh, kind of a small uprising. And then he goes out to the other Pueblos to organize, uh, resistance and, uh, rebellion, if that's the right word. So, so take us from there. And first of all, tell me if what I just described is correct. And then tell us what happens from there. Okay. So, um, what you described down, uh, broadly correct in, in all of this, uh, what I, and I can fill in some of that, but I should emphasize that what I don't know about native American history is, you know, could fill a continent and literally, um, and, uh, and I hope that there's, I'm just so excited to be a guest here in the O'Rourke school for the gifted and to be part of this, because I just think it's great that you're teaching Molly and Henry about native American history. And, and I, and I hope more people who are taking it or homeschooling with their kids now are taking advantage of them. That's how you teach some of this history, which is incredibly rich and diverse beyond, um, uh, I think anything that I had growing up and, um, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and we'll sort of push back against some of the stories that we get about native peoples, which tend to be really stereotyped and singular. Um, I think the, the, the movies tend to paint one picture of native people, you know, that, that they all are, uh, they have one kind of religion. They all go horses and Buffalo, um, and live in teepees. And, you know, they all, it's all happened a long time ago. And none of that is some of that is true for some tribes in the plains, but there were thousands of different communities across the continent. Um, and you know, back slightly, can you hear me by the way? I'm getting some feedback. Yeah, we, we can hear you. I'll turn my volume down. Your voice gets muffled every five words. Is your phone on the floor? No, it's leaning up. Is your microphone on the floor at all? No, no, it's, uh, just on the phone. Hey, we paid big bucks to get you in. So this thing has got to work, right? It's gotta work. All right. Um, no, thank you for doing this for free. I'm excited to be here, but, um, just to give you, okay, one, just quick snapshot of, of, of this picture of diversity that I'm talking about. Um, there are about 29 different language families, uh, or were at the time of contact across North America. Um, and to put that in perspective, that means within those language families, there are dozens more languages. And there were at the time of contact, 350 mutually, uh, unintelligible languages across North America. That means if I see one language and you speak another, we can't really share any words in common at all. It's as different from, you know, uh, Spanish and Russian, right. Um, 350 languages across North America. This is at 1492. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, and, um, and so it's, it's incredibly diverse. And each one of those languages reflects of people with its own rich history, with its own rich culture. Um, and, and so that's, uh, I think a really important thing to recognize very different kinds of people living very different kinds of lives and that they are still with us. A lot of the history we're going to be talking about today is living history or, uh, the sovereign nations, Pueblo nations of New Mexico and Texas and Arizona, including Hopi and Isleta del Sur. They're 21 sovereign Pueblo Indian nation. Um, and this is an important part of, of their history and, and of our history. Uh, so let's just begin by acknowledging and affirming that no matter where you're watching this, where we are here and anywhere across the country, this is Indian land, right? We are sitting here, uh, in, in my house and five points your house over the hill in the traditional homelands of, of the humanos and Manzos and Suma peoples. Uh, that's where Apache's lived in this Valley and down the road at Isleta del Sur Pueblo, um, are the Tiwa people who have been here since 1680 and whose history is very much a part of the story that we're going to be talking about today. So I, I, this is just, um, that let's, let's dig in. I think you guys have already done some, some great research, but, um, if I could Molly and Henry, I want to ask you a couple of quick favors, which is to say, I, there are other kids watching and I'm going to count on you guys to, um, interrupt me, um, when you have questions. And I hope you will do that, um, often, uh, in the first place, because you do not want me, if you, if you get me going, I will chatter like a monkey for, um, endlessly and nobody, nobody wants that. But, but secondly, if you have a question about anything, um, you, you, you need to be confident. You need to know that you are not the only person with that question. And I may not know when people have questions. So you got to ask me stuff. You got to interrupt me. Let's, let's have this a conversation back and forth. If we, um, that sounds good. Yeah. Okay. We're getting thumbs up from these guys. Awesome. So, and, and it sounds like you're already way ahead of me. Cause one of my first questions for you, um, was if you knew what a Pueblo is and, and it sounds like you do, have you, have either of you guys, uh, uh, what, what we're talking about, what we described with Pueblo. Have you, have you guys, are you asking, sorry, our signal dropped. Yeah, it's, uh, I'm asking who knows what a Pueblo is. I'm getting a picture of one here in case you guys know what a Pueblo is. Okay. So I don't know if you're going to see this because it's a digital picture, but that is a picture of Taos Pueblo. So, so Amy, uh, grew up in Lamy, uh, not too far from Santa Fe and then not too far from Taos. Um, so she's been there. I've been there, but it turns out, uh, Henry and Molly have, have not, but that's what a Pueblo looks like. That's what a Pueblo looks like. That, that is Taos Pueblo. It's been there about a thousand years. Um, and most of the Pueblos resemble that that one is across the river from another Pueblo. Many of them had two structures like that with the central courtyard, often to Kiva. Um, and, uh, and there at the time of the Spanish first contact with New Mexico, there were around a hundred of them, um, a little more than a hundred and what would become the kingdom of New Mexico, which is basically New Mexico and, and Arizona. Uh, and as I mentioned today, there are 21 that remain that are, that are still sovereign. Now that one that I showed you just now is actually really important because it's, it's there at Taos after 1675, when Pope is finally released, uh, from, from prison in Santa Fe that he retreats to Taos. He's not from Taos. He's from, um, he's a medicine man from Okehawinge, which is about 10 miles North of Santa Fe. Uh, but he retreats to Taos. And from there he begins, he has a vision and he begins his, uh, his diplomatic mission to unite the Pueblos. What's his vision? His vision is that if he, uh, can expel the Spanish, well, if, if he, if he can lead a movement of religious reform, uh, and purification whereby the, uh, the Pueblo peoples could return to their traditional religious practices and, and, and, and expunge Catholicism from, from their worship, um, that they, uh, that bounty will be restored. The 1670s are a really tough decade in New Mexico because there's a terrible drought. There's not enough food to go around. Um, it's the, we're at the sort of the tattered edges of the Northern part of the Spanish empire. And, um, and, and that perimeter is not well protected from incursions by Comanches and from Navajos. And so various Pueblo peoples are feeling, are feeling heat and pressure from a lot of sides, not a sustainable situation. And the hope is that if he can restore, um, religious purity, get rid of the Spaniards, then peace and prosperity will return. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. I think you had the right idea when you wanted to go back, um, to the beginning of, of the, of the conquest, uh, and the beginning of encounter, because there's a backstory to, to the revolt. Right. And, um, and you're right. It begins in 1540. Oh, it begins actually a little bit before that. It begins with, uh, Estevanico traveling with Cabeza de Vaca, uh, and Durantes and Castillo four castaways from an ill-fated expedition that was meant to land in Florida. They got shipwrecked and marooned and they ended up four of them, the lone survivors, as far as they knew, imprisoned in West Texas, sorry, East Texas, Galveston Island, after which they escaped, wandered for a total of seven years after they eventually set out and wandered into New Mexico. Um, tradition, local tradition is that they wandered up through Paso Del Norte right through where we live right now and encountered some wetlands. And that's, that's a fascinating story in its own right. What year is that? Well, that's, uh, so they, the, the expedition they set out on is 1527. That's Narvaez expedition and they eventually make it back in, um, 1536, I think. Um, but at some point towards the very end of that, they make it up into New Mexico, which is important because Estevanico who is the African slave, um, an African slave accompanying the three Spaniards returns. He returns in 1539, uh, ahead of an expedition led by, uh, by Marcos de Misa and he begins telling these remarkable stories that, uh, because he's saying, I know amazing riches to the North. I know of incredible wealth. I know of great gold that can be found in particular. He describes the seven cities of Cibola, right? And these are supposed to be seven cities of gold with unimaginable wealth, which the Spaniards, by the way, are very willing to believe and very ready to believe because they have extraordinary evidence of the wealth of the new world. Having in 1520, um, uh, Cortez having attacked and ransacked and taken over Tenochtitlan and overthrown Moctezuma, which is a city that was one of the great cities on earth at the time filled with gold and unimaginable wealth. And they think there's more to be found. So there's a great deal of pressure to go up there. And Estevanico, um, is, is executed at Zuni. The seven cities of Cibola that he describes are at Zuni Pueblo, um, at Habacu. And he's executed there because he makes a bunch of doctors when he arrived. But meanwhile, what he had told, the story that he had told about that place and the path that he had led up there makes it back to Mexico city. And, um, eventually Coronado 1540 shows up. And that's a name that I think all you guys know, right? From Coronado high school and just from a local legend. He shows up in July of 1540 and with, uh, just a military, um, um, military, uh, expedition, um, they raid and attack, uh, uh, Habacu, which is one of the seven cities of Zuni. Um, they don't find tremendous gold. They don't find tremendous wealth. But you do find a lot of people and they begin traveling East looking for more gold. They make it as far as Kansas following, um, uh, stories that they hear about a place further and further to the East and to the North. Uh, but never finding the gold that they're looking for. But still, this is creating, even as they go, it's brutal, right? They don't have enough food to keep them going. So every time they show up at Pueblo, they demand tribute. They demand corn. They demand clothing often more than any poor looking provide. And if they don't get it, they attack. And so they make a name for themselves and they make a name for the Spaniards. And this, that's a pattern that will follow. Um, most, as you pointed out, most, um, infamous with Oñate, whose statue both of you guys seen at the, at the airport, uh, Juan de Oñate, that great big, uh, guy on a horse right by the airport. Right. So that's Juan de Oñate. He arrives in April of 1598, but unlike Coronado, who just has a military contingent, Oñate has livestock, Oñate has settlers. He has people there that want to get rich, if not from mineral wealth, although people are hoping for that from land, um, they, they are going to settle the place. So it's a different kind of expedition altogether. Um, and as you may, let me ask you a question, Robert, real quick. Um, whether it is in, uh, 1540 or 1598 with Oñate or, or later on, um, are, are the Pueblo people defenseless? Why, why, I, one immediate question is why, why did they not, um, why were they unable to fight off the Spanish who were coming in? The Spanish were coming in with far smaller numbers. Uh, was it that the Spanish had, um, guns and steel and then, and then disease were the Pueblo people ravaged by disease that the Spanish brought back? Why were the Pueblo people unsuccessful? In staving off this incursion? Right. Uh, it's a great question. So, um, they, the Pueblo people's, uh, they were at a technological disadvantages disadvantage with respect to, uh, warfare. They, uh, the Spaniards have cannons, they've got, um, firing tubes, hard, uh, harbicases that are sort of, um, they're guns basically. Um, and, and, uh, they, yeah, have, have, have excellent tactics. The Pueblos, um, defend themselves as best they can, but they are fighting with bows and arrows and spears and lottos and things like that. They, they don't, they can't stand up to the firepower, uh, but they try to, and a place they try to make a stand is at Acoma, uh, at the end of 1598, right? They crossed El Paso in April, 1598 by 15, the end of 1598, um, they are exploring, uh, Western New Mexico and an Acoma Pueblo, um, Coronado had been through there. And if you've been there, you, you know, um, uh, I encourage people who have a computer with them to Google a picture of this place. It is one of the most remarkable places on earth I've, I've ever been. And when Coronado held it for the first time, he described it, um, magnificent fortress in all the world is a Pueblo. Like I showed you in a picture of Taos, but it's a picture of this on top of a, of a 350 foot Mesa. And the only way he got up there was through these single file passageways. Right. Um, and it was, it was incredibly well, it was defensible position. And, um, and when Juan de Saldivar, Saldivar nephew of Oñate shows up demanding food, um, and stealing things from them, um, they decide they're going to kill him, um, for his, uh, for his insults and offenses against them. They do. And they kill, uh, uh, him and the small group that's with him, where it gets back to Oñate, his brother, uh, again, another, uh, nephew of Oñate, they show up with 70 people with cannons, um, and they make their demands, eventually forced their way on top of the Pueblo. And once they do, uh, a massacre ensues, 800 men, women, and children are killed. Um, fire is set to the Pueblo, uh, decree is passed down that no one shall live there for 20 years. And as you mentioned, um, all male survivors over the age of 25 have one foot cut off. Um, males, uh, between the ages of 15 to 25 are sent into a 20 year, uh, period of servitude, if I recall correctly. And then the people younger than that are distributed to the Franciscan friars for re-education down in Mexico. Um, two Hopis who happened to be there at the time have right hands cut off and they're sent back to Hopi to send the message that this is not to be resisted. Uh, it is, it is an atrocity of, of, of, of astonishing and shocking, uh, scale. That was even shocking to the Spaniards in New Mexico. And it's partly for, um, his actions at Acoma that, um, uh, that that Onate was recalled from his position as governor of New Mexico, uh, 1607, I think. And, um, and, and he was, he was convicted of war crimes. Um, but the pattern had been set and a pattern of brutality had been established. And more importantly, uh, colonization was underway with him. Peralta follows as the first post-Onate governor. He establishes, uh, the palace of the governors at Santa Fe. And, and that's where things begin to change. And as you mentioned, disease, about a hundred thousand people, um, in, in the Pueblos under that, probably at the time, the 1540 or so by the end, uh, by the time of the Spanish, uh, excuse me, the Pueblo revolt, there's, you know, um, maybe 15, 20,000. So most of that is, they went from a hundred thousand to maybe 15 or 20,000, mostly through disease. Violent. Um, the Spaniards demand that they centralize their living spaces. So like one group of people might have four or five different Pueblos, uh, spread out like at, at, at, at Jemez, a different locations in Spanish demand. We're going to build a mission church here and you're going to move everybody right here. I'm not going to centralize everything. And the Spaniards at that point began implementing what the, what was called the encomienda system, right? Which is basically a system that combines excessive taxation and, um, almost slave like labor. Right. Um, and, and in this way, they demanded the harvest. They demanded a number of things. They demanded conversion and worship Catholicism, the banishment of native religions. Uh, but they demanded crops and they demanded, um, uh, an enormous percentage of those crops, uh, when centralizing their, uh, distribution through the missions, which made the Pueblo people's dependent on them for food. So there are far fewer Spaniards there. Um, but they, but they're undergoing, you know, a period of tremendous turmoil and death, dislocation, death from disease, death from having to relocate. Um, and then the process of conversion, which is not a peaceful process, this process of colonization and conversion, uh, they begin to revolt, you know, in, in the 1640s, but they're small scale. They're not spread out. Um, but it's okay. Who comes along and, and after 1675 really turns the corner. I'm going to show you one more picture. I've wanted to ask you this, Beto, if you've seen, uh, this at your, the last job you had, do you remember this statue? Yeah. So, so each state gets two statues that they get to place in the Capitol. And this statue, I believe if I can make it out from here is a Pope, uh, which is one of the two that New Mexico, um, sent to the, to the Capitol. Is that right? Right. That's right. That's exactly right. And, uh, the artist was, uh, he's a Puebloan, uh, artist from, from Jemez. His name was, uh, the Fragula and he finished that 2005 was unveiled at first. Okay. When Gannon set up to Washington, he is the hero of the Pueblo revolt and he is one of the most extraordinary political figures in American history. And, and the story of what happens after 1675, the story of the Pueblo revolt is really astonishing. Um, you could tell it in, in a way that sounds, there are a lot of different ways to tell the story, but think about what it represents in its outline. It's a story in a nutshell of, of, of a people suffering under terrible persecution for generations, uh, political subjection, religious persecution, excessive taxation, breaking apart from their oppressors, forming, electing new leaders and forming a new confederation, um, in order they might live freely and practice their religion freely. Does that sound familiar to you as a student of American history? What, what period of American history, maybe the revolution, the American revolution, maybe, or another time. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like the story of the American revolution, part of the story of American revolution or the story of, of the, of the, of the pilgrims and the period, right. Escaping religious persecution in England. But these are stories that we identify with a very particular part of America and a very particular set of actors, very particular geography, which is in the Northeast and white people. When in fact, um, there is an extraordinary story, um, unfolding, um, expressing these universal principles, um, right, right here in, in, in the Rio Grande Valley. Um, so you had it right. 1675, he, along with 47, um, uh, 46 other medicine men are, uh, on charge of the sorcery and are brought to Santa Fe. Some are executed. Um, he eventually under, well, the Spanish under duress, there's a group of people that march on, on Santa Fe and demand a release of all these medicine. And these are traditional medicine men accused of sorcery because they persist in the practice of their traditional, uh, religion, um, and have not embraced Catholicism. They demand his release. He, he, Pope goes up to his house, Pueblo is there for three years. And secretly during this time, he travels to 45 different Pueblos across mostly Northern Mexico. But as far, um, he, he also see, he gets as far West as and Hopi. Um, and, and the message is following his vision that we need to unite, that fighting, you know, these individual rebellions aren't going to get us anywhere. We need to unite together. I'm going to drive people out. And in a nutshell, that's what they do. They succeed in doing something that no other confederation of native peoples in North America was able to do, which is entirely to expunge a fully entrenched colonial presence from their lands. And they pushed them all the way South of the Rio Grande where, uh, and then lives in and freedom for 12 years before they were reconquered by John Diego de Vargas in 1692. That's the story in a nutshell. That's the story in a nutshell. We'll we'll we'll dig into some of the really interesting things about how it unfolds in a particular drama. But let me just check in with you guys, Henry, Molly, uh, Beto. Um, what, what are you, what are you, uh, are questions so far? Anything? You're still there. Okay. Uh, questions so far, where, where are we at? You guys have questions? Let me, Robert, there's, there are other kids who are watching right now. Let me, uh, let me check the questions that have come in. If you guys have questions, um, uh, you can ask, here, here's one from Luke. Uh, Robert, you can see it on your screen. Did the architectural structure of the Pueblos make conquering them more challenging for the Spaniards? Uh, it made it more challenging. In fact, they were built to be defensive, uh, structures. Um, let me find, find that picture in you'll see that they are. Okay. So this is Taos Pueblo again, and this is, uh, uh, uh, a recent picture. Um, and so some of the interior architecture is a little bit different. You can see that they are graduated terraces. That makes sense. They're like steps, great big steps going back. So there's a bigger block on the floor than a smaller one above that, a smaller one above that. That makes sense. Yep. Sometimes there are four and five of these terraces going up. And they would have ladders going down with entrance entryways in the roof up here. The modern architecture has doors down on, um, on, on the ground level, but that's not how typically or traditionally they were, they were designed, right. You would enter through the roots of these places and you can pull up your, your ladder so that no one can follow after you. So those are, yeah, they're, they're built defensively. Um, another question. This is Diego. Was Spanish used as a lingua franca between the tribes? Oh, excellent question. Um, by 1680, yes, most of the tribes, um, certainly the ones that were most, um, eager to overthrow the Spaniards shared Spanish as a lingua franca because they have, uh, the presence of a mission there. They have Franciscan friars who are demanding tribute from them. Um, and, and, and they are forcing them to, to learn Spanish. So that's what health Franca is. It's a common language that everybody uses. If you can't understand, um, another people's language, but you, you all understand this other language. You can use, um, Spanish, uh, if you don't understand what the Apaches or Comanches are saying, is that right? A good definition. But there are, so there are six languages really that people are speaking in the Northern Pueblos. Otherwise, aside from Spanish. And, and this, I love this question. This was, was this, who is this? Luke? This was Diego who asked this question. Diego, this is such an important question. And it plays into, I think one of the really interesting things that happens once they decide they're going to attack because, all right, so, so if you want to, I have a hard enough time, obviously communicating via Instagram, getting my phone to work, but imagine, you know, you're trying to communicate with people across say 40, 30 or 40 Pueblos. You don't have phones. You don't have, um, you're not within sight of each other. You're miles and miles apart, sometimes more than a hundred miles apart. How do you communicate and coordinate a large scale military action? And especially when people, you know, they're traditional languages, there's six different languages that people speak. Pope had a really ingenious idea, which was that, uh, he took, he made a series of ropes out of yucca and tied knots in them and explained to each of the runners that he sent out to all of these different Pueblos, untie one knot every day. When you get to the end of, of this list of knots and this, this grouping of knots, that will be the day upon which the attack shall commence. Wow. So, so each, each Pueblo got a rope and there were say, we don't know how many knots, but say there were 12 knots. You would untie a knot every day. And when you got to the last knot, you knew that was the day to attack because, uh, they might not have been able to write things to each other that they could read because they may have been speaking different languages, but everybody understood that concept. That, that is so cool. Robert, I want to read a comment to you and I'm, and I apologize if I'm pronouncing the person's name wrong. Gaispe says, I think it's important to mention us Pueblo people are still thriving and a living culture today. I'm actually listening to Robert from Laguna Pueblo. Awesome. Awesome. Um, well, uh, I, I'm so glad to hear that, um, uh, that there are people here from Indian country that there's a listener from Laguna Pueblo. Um, that is really, really exciting. And that's, I'm glad you brought up that point and emphasize it. That's something that I wanted to mention and to emphasize earlier on. I think the, you know, one of the main, um, uh, components of the, the, the cultural, uh, erasure of native peoples is the, um, uh, the spread of this myth. The native peoples live in the past. This is a living history for living people who are here. And, and we have people tuning in right now from the sovereign nation of Laguna Pueblo, um, who are represented in Congress by Deb Holland. Right. Um, and, and I, I, I think I'm a huge fan of hers. Um, and, uh, uh, and I'm just really excited that you're listening right now. And I hope that you chime in more with these questions because these are, this is a history that I think we should all know. Um, but this is also living history that belongs to, to native peoples and they should be the authors of those histories. So I hope that, um, that, uh, that this, uh, and I've already forgot, was it his name or her name? Um, uh, uh, I, I, I, I missed it in the exchange, but, but I hope that person will chime in with, with, with more. Um, yeah. And Robert, I'm going to, so for those of you at home, especially your kids who have questions, there's a question mark button at the bottom of your screen. If you press that, you can enter a question. Uh, Henry and Molly and I will select your question to ask of Robert. We have about 22 minutes left. And, and as we look for a question, Robert, uh, 2098, that is their screen name says, uh, that they're a member of the Hopi tribe and they're watching you right now as well. So this is, okay. So then let's, let's jump ahead to one part of the story where it touches on the Hopis and the Zunis and the people who are further to the West. Um, so something really interesting happens. Um, uh, so hello to Hopi nation. That's, that's really exciting. So one thing they, they've set the date for the attack to be August, if I'm getting this right, August 11th, that's going to be the date of the attack. But the night before, um, uh, excuse me, two days before two runners, uh, two Pueblo runners are intercepted. They're intercepted by Antonio de Otrimin, who is now the colonial governor. It's no longer Trevino, it's Otrimin, who is the governor there in Santa Fe. And they tortured them. These are kids. They're, they're teenagers, 13, 14 years old, but they tortured them. And, and they find out, um, that this attack is about to commence, right. Um, they, uh, and word then gets back to Hopi that this is about to happen. And so they decide to, um, uh, to move up the date of the attack by one day because they, they've been told that, you know, they, they manage under, under duress, under torture, they reveal when the date of the attack is supposed to transpire. Um, and, uh, and so they decide to preempt that by moving up the date of the attack. Again, how do you do that? If you have to do this in 24 hours, um, if you have, uh, people spread out so far, it's, it's the amazing, the legendary Pueblo runners who do this, who cover like almost unimaginable distances of land, um, and accomplish this with incredible feats of endurance. They make it to everywhere. The attack is moved up to cut, to jump to the end of the story. The attack is moved up. And everyone except for Hopi and Zuni. Uh, and I think Acoma is on time because they can't get all those hundreds and hundreds of miles away down, down and around the mountains, all the way out to Hopi. Uh, so Hopi still attacks on the 11th and, uh, Zuni and Acoma still attack on the 11th. Um, but everyone else, uh, you know, dozens, 20, 30, 50 miles away, they get the message in time, they attack, which is astonishing. And, uh, so what happens is they end up killing, uh, the, the plan is to kill the, uh, the priests and whatever local resistance there is at the more distant Pueblos and then to converge on Santa Fe, which is where the governor is. Right. And in Santa Fe, uh, the night of the ninth, the 10th word comes in from Pueblo after Pueblo from, from, uh, the Kuris from, uh, from, from, you know, from, uh, all these different places, Nambe, Jemez, Tesuque, Taos, uh, Pecos. They end up burning the church at Pecos. To give you an idea of how serious the investment was of the Spaniards in, uh, New Mexico, they destroy the church at Pecos and a church would not be built that is larger than that church in North America until St. Patrick's cathedral is built in New York city in 1878. Wow. It is enormous. Um, so to think about the size of this investment, to think about, uh, how important, uh, New Mexico was to the crown of the Spaniards. Um, that, that, that's, that, that's the scale that we're talking about here, right? It's, it's, uh, it's, um, um, the, uh, um, eventually word gets back to the governor, uh, that things are going terribly. They converge on the palace of the governors, which is still there. It's right there. Uh, uh, Henry, I bet you have been there, uh, down on the square in the middle of Santa Fe, the palace of the governors marks one border of one side. I think it's the, what side is that? The Eastern side? No, the Western side, I think of, of, of the, uh, of the, of the square, right? That building is where Otramien and his people are hold up and waiting. Um, they eventually go out, they try to fight. It doesn't go well. They managed to sort of disperse the first Puebloans who are converging on them, but then more come back. Um, uh, during that fight, he shot in the, with an arrow in the chest, another one in the face, which couldn't have been very pleasant. Um, he survives, he survives. And, uh, and then for 10 days, they're under siege there, right? And the Puebloans, they end up, uh, allied with the Apaches. Um, they, uh, cut off their water supply and after 10 days they bust out basically with the, or with the, um, they bust out trying to escape and, and the Puebloans allow them to do this. They want them out. And so they sort of harass this calm in military formation that's marching south. They want to go as far as Isleta where there is another, um, um, sort of another establishment. They haven't, they're not part of the revolt, but there are, there's a regiment of Spaniards there. Um, they want to hook up with them and with the rest of the Spaniards that are still alive, that have retreated to that location. And those that haven't already retreated that is to Santa Fe. They get as far as Isleta and find that it's deserted. Isleta assumes that everything is, is gone to pot up north. Um, that is the, the Spaniards at Isleta and they have fled south with, um, uh, all the, the rest of the, the, uh, Hispanic Spaniards who the, the Hispanics were there. And with a number of the, um, the T was the Isletas who are either, um, or, or, uh, converted to Catholicism or, um, are, um, they're slaves, right? Eventually what you mean, and they can, they meet on the road somewhere south of Isleta, right? It is south of Albuquerque and they retreat to guess where? Guess, guess where? That's right. To Paso Del Norte. So just south of the river, because El Paso where we live, it hasn't been built yet. So they, they make it as far as that's where they stop. And that's where they stay. That's where they stay, uh, the Spaniards until they attempt their recon. They actually try to conquer it again. A year later, it doesn't work. They try to a few times. It doesn't work until, uh, David of Augusta in 1692, but that's where the T was are forced to build, um, the Isleta, uh, the, the church at Isleta. And that's where they have been ever since that is where Isleta del Sur Pueblo is. They are, um, in a sense, refugees, uh, who moved south from, from their, their mother Pueblo, um, at Isleta, which you'll see as you drive up to Albuquerque and drive up to Santa Fe, you see it off on the right from, from the highway. Um, at least you see the great big casino there. So that's part of the story is, is really local. And it's something that I think you guys probably probably know pretty well. If you had a chance to drive down on the mission trail and see where she really should. Robert, we see some of, um, our, uh, kids classmates on here saying hello. Uh, so we've got some El Paso kids. I'm going to, I'm going to click the questions. Um, yeah, let's read through these. Which one do you like? Yeah. How did the Pueblos get their food? Did they hunt large animals or whatever? So they're primarily farmers. Um, and, and they plant a lot of corn. They eat a lot of squash. Um, they have, they are enormously knowledgeable and skillful about things. They can, uh, harvest from, uh, from the desert. Um, uh, and, and, and they also hunt. So that's, it's some, you know, from, from every column, but they differ from, um, uh, I should mention that the, the name, the Pueblos that was provided by the Spaniards to differentiate them from what they called Los Indios Pueblos by which they meant the nomadic tribes of, of New Mexico, the people that didn't live in villages like the, uh, the Navajos and the Apaches who, um, were more traditional hunters, um, uh, and, and, and gatherers. Right. Um, but the, the Pueblos had, you know, extensive irrigation and enormously sophisticated farming systems that took advantage of, um, well, that, that had, that had to be very inventive given, as you know, how little it rains out here. Right. Um, but they were very successful farmers for thousands of years because they knew this landscape better than anybody and they knew how to live sustainably from it. Here's a, another question. Uh, do you want to, um, read this question, Henry? Um, how are the Tiwa at Tortugas or Las Cruces related to Isleta? Okay. That's a really interesting question. Um, and, and I don't know that I know the answer to it. I think that's a question that is best asked of, of the, uh, of the Tortugas people in Las Cruces and of the Tiwas in El Paso. Right. Um, this, this is family history and you're asking, well, who's related to who? And, and there are different things that you read about, um, about where they came from. If they were part of that original group that came down to several hundred that came down with this band in 1680, if they were related in other ways to, um, uh, you know, and then, and then spread out from there after they came down here. Um, but that's, that's a question I think we should, you know, uh, we should go out. Well, not now. I think now we should stay home, but I think eventually we should go down to Isleta del Sur Pueblo and, and ask some of these questions because these are, again, this, this is history that belongs to Pueblan peoples and, and, and, and that's, that's their question to answer. I, and I don't, I don't, I don't really know. I've got a question for you, Robert. Um, I loved earlier how you talked about some of the parallels between the Pueblo revolt and the American revolution. Um, and I also liked that you talked about how unique this was in, um, the history of contact that an indigenous people were able to throw off the yoke of the colonizers and literally drive them physically hundreds of miles out of their land and, and, and do that for 12 years. Um, I want to ask you how unique that is. My understanding is that the Comanches were able to do, um, something, um, similar, uh, in terms of driving Spanish and other European colonizers and invaders out for a very long time. And, you know, Comancheria was, um, you know, impassable, uh, that, that empire, which is maybe not the right word, uh, was, was also maybe kind of a, an extraordinary, not typical, um, you know, turn of events where native people were able to get the upper hand on European colonizers. Can you talk about either how rare this is or if it was more common than we assume? So, um, I think you're absolutely right with the Comanches who were the military force and the Southern great Plains, um, for, for hundreds of years. I think the big difference here that we're talking about is, uh, well, two things. One is, um, greater Comancheria was, uh, defensible for them because they were, um, they were such powerful, uh, such a powerful military presence so much so that the Spaniards, um, and, and after them, uh, the Mexican and after them, the Americans, uh, had trouble getting a foothold into that country. They just simply couldn't penetrate into it where, uh, and establish, um, uh, control of military, whereas in New Mexico, what you're looking at is a colonial system and a missionary system working hand in glove to, um, establish control over a vast geography. And they did so for decades and decades. So that difference, I think stands out to me. Um, it's not unique in terms of, uh, in fact, it anticipates a lot of other pan Indian movements that you see in the 19th century and 18th and 19th century, uh, thinking in the great lakes region with Pontiac and his Confederacy. And after him, I think that the resemblance that I always think about is between Pope and is, uh, between him and Tecumseh and his brother Tenskutawa and Pope kind of combined to Tecumseh and Tenskutawa was Tecumseh was this incredibly gifted diplomat who spread a message of pan Indian resistance to the white people, chiefly the Americans at that point, uh, from, from their home and in Indiana and across the great lakes region. But he did so in a conjunction with his brother Tenskutawa, who was a religious leader who also preached the, uh, the need to return to traditional life ways and traditional religious practices to throw off the yoke of missionary activity. Right. Pope is sort of both of these guys at once. He is, uh, you know, he went to these 45 different Pueblos totally in secret. Spaniards had no idea what he was up to. Um, and he makes his argument across all these linguistic barriers to all these different people, um, who have their differences and, and, and, and makes a convincing case for the need for pan, uh, for common resistance. Right. But he does so also, uh, motivated very strongly by his own, um, religious message and the need to purify, um, religious spiritual practice, uh, or, um, or, for Pueblo people as well, uh, to comes to though, and has quit how, although they are remarkably successful in what they achieve can't do what has happened in New Mexico. They are unable to dislodge the Americans or the British and Canadians to the North. Um, too much, uh, time is bad. There are too many Americans around and, and the Americans, um, they're just too many at that point. They, they can't achieve what, um, what the, what the, uh, what the Pueblos did in, in 1680. No one, this happens, keep in mind, this happened 1680. This is four years after the end of King Phillip's war, a far more well-known war in new England. When King Phillip met a comment tries to, to unite, um, Wampanoags and Narragansetts, uh, and so forth. Yeah. To, to expel the British once and for all, if they can, who are, you know, um, um, bringing terrible suffering to, to the people of new England. And, and he is unsuccessful. Um, that was the last, that sort of the last big chance they had to do that in New England. Um, but the numbers at that point were prohibited. There are just too many of them that kept on coming as eventually proves for the people in the Southwest after 1692, there are just too many Spaniards, but things changed, right? Things changed after 1692, the old incoming end of system was not reinstalled. The demand by the missionaries that they end their traditional practices was not re reinstated. They established a more, um, uh, the one of the, I think the permanent gains of the Pueblo Revolt was the establishment of a principle of autonomy for, for these Pueblos such that they could be left alone to a degree to, um, to practice their own, uh, religion and to, um, and to lead their, their own lives. Right. Um, so that, that's, uh, that's what I, I, I would, would add to that. It's even though it ended, the effects are long lasting and they are something that I think Pueblo peoples are rightfully proud of. Henry's going to read you this question from Lex. There was another question that came in, not through the formal question, but just in the comments, um, you're welcome to take it or leave. It is a hot dog, a sandwich that, that's something you don't have to answer. Henry, do you want to read this one? I need to enlist my good one. Um, I, I need, I need more minds to attack this one. Henry ready. I need your help. All right, Henry, will you read this one? Oh man. Um, no, I wish I did. If you, if you find out, let me know. Um, I think that would be a really fascinating thing to read, but the runners in this part of the world, as a lot of people know, are world famous. The Tarahumara runners south of here are, uh, okay, here's my question. I want to read that book though. So I want to know, but for now, uh, and we need to get all of our minds here, uh, and share work and shake on here together. Um, gun Perillo kid is a hot dog, a sandwich. Wow. No, no, it isn't. It is not. It is not a sandwich. Well, there's, there's two sides of bread and a meat in between. That is, I feel like that's true in a narrow definition or is it a taco? I feel like that gives short trip to the hot dog. Like, well, no one acknowledged the glorious differences that weird tube shape that it has. And it's got to count for something. Or me. Hey, Robert, we're so grateful that you did this today. It was so nice of you. And I could just tell from the comments that came through, people really appreciate it. We have a friend who's on from another part of the country, Skyler, who's taking a class on native American history. And she says she really appreciates this. Um, they're folks who have their kids on. Um, there's some kids that we recognize from Henry and Molly school who've been, um, texting their, their appreciation as well. And so we would love at some point, if you're up for it again, to have you on again. Uh, and then also if anyone who's watching this, um, recommends other great minds like Roberts that want to share their wisdom on a given subject for the O'Rourke home school, for the gifted, we'd love to have you on as well. And we'd love to share it with everyone else who's homeschooling their kids right now. So, uh, we're grateful to you guys. We hope that you are taking care of each other, uh, and staying home and not getting together with other people yet. We'll do that at some point down the road. We want, we want to see you guys in person, but it sure is nice to see you by video and to see that impressive beer that your dad has. Yeah. Well, we'll see if it's, if this lasts, uh, through the quarantine. It's, it's, it's a kind of, it's, it's an ill-advised, you know, medical treatment of my own. Um, yeah, we love it. Um, well love you guys. And we'll see you have to get all of you to like, go to the barber before all of you guys. And, and for, for folks watching, um, we're going to be back on again at four 30 mountain standard time with Andy Slavitt, uh, one of the most informed knowledgeable voices on healthcare in this country right now. If you've got questions for Andy Slavitt, he'll be on at four 30 mountain time, uh, five 30 central. And you're welcome to join us, Robert, you should join us as well and ask him some tough questions. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. All right, you guys, I'll see you guys soon. All right. Uh, class is over. Molly, what do we do now? Huh? We're, we're still on. Yeah. So what, what's next? Do we want to show, we'll show the chicks later. Um, yeah. Real quick. All right. Real quick. Since we've got two minutes left in the class, go show and tell. Um, thanks everyone for joining us. Hey, uh, I saw some comments from some of you and some questions posed about how we get rid of obnoxious trolling commentators. I don't mind people who are critical. I don't mind people who have a different point of view, but, but people who are ugly or rude or mean, uh, or vicious, um, uh, I found the way to mute them. So, um, that's, thanks for, for your patience on that. Um, we figured that out like this guy, uh, Michael, who says your dad isn't smart. Well, you know, that's really nice. Michael. Uh, here we go. All right. Who are we going to show? Hey, that's fluffy. My brother named him. And then this is chipmunk. This is Bella Luna. She's a bantam. I forgot what this one is.