Ep. 40 Behind the Scenes from the Pyongyang Marathon

Hello everybody and welcome to the Discover North Korea podcast with me Zoe and for the first time in person friend of the podcast Greg from Coro Tours and we are here together in Beijing. >> Yep. And the representative of Coro Tours. >> Exactly. Yes. And good friend. Um, if you are listening on Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you usually listen to podcasts, feel free to go on over to YouTube where you will see our beautiful faces in our beautiful office. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> don't lose much if you just listen. >> At the same time, this is our first time recording visually, so Greg is right. You're not going to lose out on much. We have a a very busy office and this is the um and we spend a good time trying to figure out a location. We've got lots going on all around us, but unfortunately what you can see behind us is only the 27th Wangyong Day Prize Marathon poster from 2014 and uh a North Korean Lego set which is pretty cool. >> Yeah. >> Can we see the Lego set? >> Can you read it out for us, Greg? You have to describe it for those um only listening to the podcast. >> Okay. So, this is like well my military knowledge is not too advanced. >> We found out on the last podcast episode. Do you remember trying to read the paper and it was all about military stuff and you admitted that the last one that uh your Korean is mainly just romance from watching dramas? >> No, I didn't say I didn't say you alluded to something like that. Anyway, tell us about this military Lego set. This is like a kucha kind of thing I think. So basically a vehicle which carries like a rockets or not rockets but like uh some artillery material which can be shot just like a mobile artillery >> uh set and it also has two angry looking soldiers. >> They do look pretty angry, don't they? Let me show it to the camera a little bit so people who are watching can see. We go. And a very angry looking soldiers down there. This one's actually in the vehicle. Oh, it's the same. Oh, no, it's not the same. Yeah, he's looking very angry there. And we got this the last time we were in Pyang. >> Uh or when I went in March. >> Ah, yeah. To Pyang or to Razon? >> To Pyongyang. >> Is there a an age limit on this? Like there usually is with Lego. I don't think there is. Right. >> It says where it was produced in >> Oh, six >> from six. >> For ages six and up. What do you think? Would you give this to a six-year-old child? Our colleague Rich has a six-year-old child. No. Maybe we could uh gift it to one of them. >> Well, I wouldn't personally because I don't encourage militaristic worldview. But >> fair enough. Um, so today we're just gonna have a bit of a chat about a bit of a debrief about the Pyongyang Marathon. Um, when we were there, my gosh, it's April already. That means it's been almost 4 months. Uh, sorry, it's April. It's August already and it was in April. So, it's been 4 months >> almost since the marathon, which is crazy because that means that I also haven't done a podcast episode since then, although I promised everyone it's been very busy. Um, >> actually it was exactly four months ago when we met in Beijing for the briefing. >> Is it a Okay. Yes, it's currently well it's we are recording this on the 4th. That's crazy. Gosh. So, it's been four months almost since we s saw each other. >> Yep. >> Yeah. All right. Well, we're going to have a bit of a chat about the marathon, a debrief, um, Pyongyang, what it was like to be back in Pyongyang, what our thoughts are about Pyang, and then also maybe a little chat about what the future of tourism will bring and Pyongyang Marathon 2026. >> Yeah. >> Does that sound okay, Greg? >> Yeah, let's dive in. >> Super. So, tell me what what are your thoughts about Pyang Marathon? like how did you how did you find the whole experience cuz you were busy a lot in the office doing a lot of that. >> Yeah. So first of all >> my first trip to Pyongyang wasn't the Pyongyang marathon per se. >> I know you went there all before all of us. >> That's not the point. >> As I said >> you were the first foreigner back in Pyang. >> No, that is definitely not true. We personally know people who've been there before us. >> Yes, that's true. actually >> hundreds of Russian tourists being there before us. >> But no, Greg, I saw some YouTube videos coming out saying that they were the first foreigners in Pyongyang since co. How can this not be true? >> Ignorance is a gift. >> Some people say >> ignorance is a gift. >> Yeah. >> Okay, fair enough. Uh that's another thing that we'll talk about actually is uh all the YouTubers. Um maybe we can have a little bit of a chat because I know that there's a lot of rumors going around about YouTubers. um closing the country. So, we'll have a bit of a chat about that later. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Anyway, carry on. you tell me um about um >> so long story short uh I went back to Pyongyang in March this year to meet the representatives of the Athletic Association >> who are in charge of arranging Pyongyang Marson and to make uh you know some uh final uh arrangements for the event and also for the um it's it wasn't tourism uh it was uh sports delegations So basically >> runners delegation who also had the chance to spend five nights in Pyongyang. >> Um which pretty much makes sense actually because a lot of people who travel to marathons around the world would stay in the city for a little bit longer, right? >> Absolutely. I would do that. Um but yeah so basically I was also in there very much to make some final arrangements for the not sports haven part of the itinary >> uh but also the discovery part. >> Mhm. >> Um and then we went back to Pyongyang in April for the marathon. M >> uh to be honest I didn't take much part in the preparations because really what actually what happens that whenever I step out of Beijing office >> uh Korea decides to make some announcements or to go ahead with something which would require me to work a lot. >> I'm very excited for the next time that you leave this office because the next time you leave this office something big is going to happen. >> Thursday. >> All right. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. Yeah. Um, so basically the man behind was Simon Kakarell, >> our general manager. >> Yeah. >> Because I was traveling in Bhutan uh in East Bhutan actually to uh have a wrecky tour for our first ever East Bhutan tour which will take place in March. >> Nice little plug. Um I will put the links to that trip if you do want to travel with Greg. Um then you can come to our East Bhutan uh trip in March which is super cool. Um it's a very undiscovered place in Bhutan. It only opened recently, right? >> Yeah. >> Um >> I mean no no East Bhutan was open for foreigners. Okay. >> So what changed dramatically >> is that the land border between India Exactly. >> Bhutan has been open for third country >> uh travelers since October November 2024. Yeah. >> So it makes East Bhutan more accessible and more uh budget friendly. >> Okay. because now you don't have to either, you know, travel by car >> for like unadi hours or >> uh take the flight uh >> to uh East Bhutan. >> Yeah, >> we still have a flight from East Bhutan to Paro, >> but at least it's a oneway journey, not a round trip. So, it makes it cheaper. >> Yeah. >> And and people that are actually really uh excited about uh having more foreigners. I had a chance to meet with two governors >> in the town. >> Very cool. Yeah. >> Um also uh I had good chat with the hotel owners. >> Most of them used to be government officials. >> Mhm. >> Uh they are pretty uh open-minded and uh well troubled and they want the world to see that part of the country as well. >> A well there you go. And so they were quite excited and yes it's a it's a very >> u untouched like I've met like one German group >> I think like I met only 20 foreigners within six or eight days. >> Okay. So not very >> so it's it's it's it's not uh uh uh you know flooded with tourists. >> Cool. Well, I'll put the link in the show notes for that for everyone that wants to go and see. I would very much recommend if you want to hear more um from Greg uh and see more of him, then come on tour with us in March. So, you were away doing the research trip for that uh in March uh uh sorry, last year when all of this started to happen, right? >> Yeah. So, basically two major things happened at early Mar in early March. >> Number one is closing uh Rasan for tourism. Yeah. >> Uh for in >> which was of course the influencers that did that. >> Um >> no, we'll talk about that in a bit. Anyway, carry on. >> I don't have a position on that actually. >> Okay. >> Um and then the second one is that uh the monosome was confirmed to go ahead. So basically had one month to you know to gather people who are interested in the monolas >> and we also had constraints regarding like uh seats. on air flights because you could only use like two air flights in and out like four in total was like two return flights >> in and out. >> But we still managed to get uh 180ish. >> Yeah. Around 200 people, wasn't it? >> Runners. >> Yeah. >> Um it was a major success I think in every respect. >> An emphasis there on the runners. So these were not tourists, right? These were literally just runners. And like what we mean by that is not that you have to be a professional or even amateur runner. You just have to be able to walk a 5K or not even you don't even have to complete it. You just have to be willing to sign yourself up to walk a 5K because as Greg was saying before this was not a tourist. This was a running delegation. Yeah. >> And so who the you were talking before about meeting the partners um in North Korea um to organize the marathon like what what part does cororeo play in this and like what did you have to do and what tell us about that. >> Yeah. So Coro Tours is official partners uh of the Pyongyang Marathon. >> Uh we are in charge of recruiting foreign runners. Mh. >> Uh we are in charge of uh you know uh signing them up for the monos race uh and arrange the uh you know visa applications and basically >> be in touch with them >> and provide with them with information. >> Uh we also have to pass all this information to the partners in Pyongyang so that they can prepare the visa applications. uh we are in respon we are responsible for you know preparing everyone that uh for the tour in a sense that they know what's going what to expect what's going on what are the dos and don'ts >> uh and then also the logistical part of the the travels behind everything. So >> uh flights uh hotel accommodations uh requesting the partner u about the itinerary might be of interest to foreigners. M and how did you organize it so that you know you have people who are in charge of a sporting event who obviously have sports on their mind and sports as a focus and then you have us and the running delegation who obviously want to go as tourists or at least want to experience the country as a tourist when they are there as runners. So how do you kind of um you know work around that and you know arrange the itinerary? Who arranges the itinerary? Did you um then say to the the sports uh del uh what what are they called the >> the athletic association? Um so the athletic association you worked with them to kind of create an itinerary. Um or did they send it say send you one and say these are the places that you have to go to or did you suggest some places? >> First of all there are no things you have to go to. >> Okay. >> I mean obviously if you are waiting for the song then you have to go to the >> very true >> but other than that >> also I'm terrified that the video is recording or not. So if you're watching on video you're going to see me get up quite a few times. Sorry. Carry on. >> But other than that uh we requested for the items on the itinerary. >> Okay. So basically I put together an itinary and we sent it to the athletic association and then what exactly they did behind the scenes I don't really know. Uh there were several tour companies actually in Pyongyang involved with it. >> Mhm. >> One is the tour company which is associated with sports uh >> oh >> uh fields. >> So what is that? Cup. >> Okay. >> So, Golden Cup travel company >> but uh we so they were the logistical u people behind it. >> But uh then we much to our surprise and and and uh >> unescribable happiness. >> Yes. KITC guides were also brought in >> and KITC guides are our normal partners who we work with and have worked with over the past 30 years of working in North Korea. So, and for me and Greg, that's about six or seven years. >> 2017, so it's eight years now, actually. >> Eight years. My gosh, we're getting old now, Greg. Um, okay. So, um, you did you put any special things on the itinerary that you decided, "Oh, I definitely want to go there." And was there any backlash as well? Like did you ask for any places um to go to for the itinerary and we weren't allowed to go for one reason or another? >> So special thing I put on the itinary are the beer bar. >> Mhm. >> And that's the new beer bar, right? >> New beer bar of the new streets. >> Yes. >> Um and the other one was uh Kandong uh greenhouse complex. >> Uh which is a new uh greenhouse complex not that far from Pyongyang. I also felt it uh uh important to go there not just because it's a new itinary item and it's very futuristic like how they use certain technologies and like it's very color can be very colorful and so on >> but also that was the only chance to get out of Pyongyang >> and see a little bit of the country which is not just Pyongyang >> right so you drive a bit of countryside area >> yes >> yeah to go there Um and then uh I also wanted to uh go to Kum Cup uh so Golden Cup uh sports uh uh factory or food staffs factory. >> Mhm. >> Uh because I was wanted to you know make the itinary as diverse as possible. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately that was not granted. I don't know why because that's something >> which just appeared on the itinary uh before COVID. >> Okay. without us even asking. >> Oh, interesting. >> I think and and as far as I know from coro tours, you are the only one or maybe another two leader who went there. You went there only. >> It's a it's a big factory. Yeah, >> it has like a nice pool. >> Yeah, it's crazy. like it's it's got like a whole spa unit that the um that the staff use and like a whole like gym julang style situation where which is like a Korean spa where um you know you have like a a spa area where you have like scrubbing and then you also have a pool for swimming >> but they also have like a small water park right with slides and stuff >> I can't remember that one maybe I didn't I didn't visit there but the whole complex is is really big Um, and it's it's a nice factory. You're right. So, I don't know. No, maybe next time. >> Yeah, but that wasn't on the final itinerary. And also, we wanted to go to Musu Water Park. >> Uh, that would have been good. >> Which has been removed. So, instead of that, you went to the zoo. >> It's moved. You said >> moved from the itinerary. Any reason why? >> Uh, you can do a search on NK News and then you make your own speculations. >> Fair enough. Um, so >> there was some news about the Musa Water Park. Uh, I think early this year, >> was there? >> I don't know it. What was it? >> Make a search. >> I missed that news. >> Go on nknews.org and then search Musa Water Park. >> Okay, >> I'm sure that the first item to pop up will be the last article. >> Okay, Greg is not sharing any information with us. I will do a search myself. Um, so out of all of the itinerary items that you added, um, or that were on the itinerary, did you have a favorite or did you have something that really stuck out to you? >> Well, I never been to the zoo before. >> You'd never been to the zoo before? >> Yes. I remember us talking about this when we were in the zoo, actually. That's very strange. And you just I mean, I've been there only a handful of times. It's not a general normal itinerary that we go to, but it's not abnormal. M >> how did you find the zoo? >> It was nice. Um >> yeah, you >> a lot of turtles for some reason. >> Like we spent only we spent about 2 hours there, right? And this was right after the marathon. So it was more of like a chill out like if people So basically after the actual marathon, we gave people the option, do you want to stay at the hotel? Do you want to go to a coffee shop? Or do you want to go to the zoo? Me and Greg went to the group that wanted to go to the zoo. Um and it was definitely more of a chill out. we can do this if you want kind of vibe. It wasn't a oh yeah, make sure you have to see everything. And at this point as well, most people had already been there for a few days. So, it was much more of a fun let's go to the zoo event instead of an itinerary item of like we have to make sure we see everything. And I think that that was really nice about it. You know, we stopped and got ice cream. Um and it it was, you know, kind of people were kind of going at their own pace as well. We got the little bus around. It was it was a nice vibe, I think. >> Yeah. Well, if you don't care about animal rights that much, >> so exactly. I don't like visiting zoos anyway. It's not the best zoo in the world. I definitely would never visit a zoo in a lot of countries, DPRK is included, generally if it was me. Um, but I've seen worse zoos in my life, unfortunately. >> Yeah, it's it's not as bad as expected. >> No, it could be a lot better, but it's definitely not to be honest. It could be way worse, let's be honest. >> Yeah, it could be. Definitely. As I said, it's not >> not the worst. The architecture is actually interesting. >> The architecture is nice. It's big >> and it's new. Like it's new architecture. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's all like nicely done. Like it's nice. It's, you know, even if the enclosures are small, they're nicely done. >> You're right. Like the architecture is nice, but still. >> Um, and it was busy as well because it was a Sunday. It was after the marathon. >> Yeah. So it was quite busy with locals who were probably not planted there just for us >> for sure. Like you know >> it's it's a nonsense to claim that. >> Yes. >> And also it's a good way to like if someone like for example our founder director Nick Boner >> uh he is he has quite tricks. >> Oh I love this. I wish I caught more of this on camera. reached out to little kids and >> and also I think some little kids reached out to us. >> Really? Oh, really? >> Yeah. Like speaking in English like a little bit. >> Oh, yeah. >> Um, >> sorry, kicking you there. >> So, it it was Yeah, it was quite a nice human experience. >> Yeah, cuz Nick went over I can't remember. So, if you ever see Nick with little um with kids, like he's he's the best with kids and I've seen him many times like he does lots of magic tricks and stuff. I can't remember what he was doing with these kids. Um, but like they were they So these kids, it was really cute as well cuz they were obviously like following us around being like, "Oh my gosh, what is this massive?" Like to be fair, if I was a little kid and I saw this massive group of foreigners, probably the first time in my life to see foreigners cuz they mustn't have been that old. Like maybe six or seven. There's been no foreigners there for the past few years, right? It's probably the first time that they've seen foreigners. They were super curious following us around a little bit. And then Nick started to like joke around with them, do some magic tricks. Oh, and then the kids started to like copy his magic tricks. He was doing something. He he does >> like this like this illusions with his hands and stuff. >> Yeah. And then they were trying to copy it. It was very cute. I wish I got more on camera, but then um then they I think they got scared at one point and run away. But yeah, the zoo was a nice one. How was the greenhouse? >> You you haven't been to the greenhouse? >> I haven't been to the greenhouse. No. >> The greenhouse was interesting. Well, tell us about the greenhouse cuz it's very visually interesting actually. Lots of purples and greens I have in my mind. What is the greenhouse? Tell us. >> So, it used to be uh military airport >> and there's quite a few military airports now that are being turned into green houses. >> If you're watching this online, by the way, I'll probably try and put some photos over the top so you can see them. Otherwise, you can go to the show notes where we have a blog on the greenhouse. >> Carry on. And so that's the story behind it. Um and they build a massive greenhouse complex which is supposed to provide Pyongyang with uh all kind of vegetables >> like basically at the end of the at the um exit >> people could buy uh tomatoes tomatoes and cucumbers >> which were grown there but they also grow grow like cilantro and like like greenery as well >> and uh like different uh uh so different green houses have different kind of vegetables and also different kind of uh uh uh technology >> it's like one of the green houses I think like they are rotating the >> I've seen those big rotating machines >> vegetables that like they get uh light >> and there's some like watering system >> um um I can't recall because the very futuristic building when they have these colors >> that's before some special technology. >> Okay. >> But I can't remember the technology behind it because to be honest I'm I'm not an agriculture expert. >> You're not? >> No. Even though I worked on a banana plantation for months. >> So random. Fair enough. Yeah. Um, but really I think what really makes >> the visit worse to the greenhouse farm is a a less urban environment, b getting out of your >> Yeah, I think for me the greenhouse cuz I still haven't been there. It definitely looks like like I get it, don't get me wrong, when people say, "Oh, it's just here for us. Oh, it's just here for show." The greenhouse is one that I've only seen pictures of and it looks really impressive. It looks new. It's a massive complex and still in the back of my mind I have some prejudice of um you know it look are they really using that? Are they really producing food there? Are they just you know showing it off to tourists? Things like that. And I know that that's not true to >> No, don't get me wrong. Like listen, the reason >> you really build something, >> this is me, right? The reason that I'm saying that, like I I get it, you know, you you don't build something just for tourists. Um >> or especially if they don't exist. >> Yes, exactly. You're totally right. It's just for me, the greenhouse looks like one of those places that it genuinely looks really impressive. And I think that's the reason why you start to think, oh, is it really just there for tourists? Is it, you know, is it are they really using it? Um, and it's interesting to me that even I have these kind of prejudices of um I mean I I never once really thought that, but it it's one of those places that kind of looks like it and kind of crosses your mind. >> Okay, let's put it into context. Okay, >> so wherever we go is real. >> Yeah. >> It's not the best representation of the average. M >> it's the best >> representation of the concept. >> Yes. So did you get a feeling that >> uh also >> like for example sometimes you end up going to factories on Sundays. Sunday is a day off >> and then why some people would think it's fake because you know in that case they will definitely send people there right just you know to show foreigners that no yeah yeah it's working it's something which is producing even though it's a Sunday. So there is an element of uh fakeness to it because you know on Sundays there is no work but still because tourists are there so that tourists can see workers as well. They will send workers there on a Sunday. >> Yeah. >> Uh actually you can read about it in Andrea's uh book >> being in North Korea. >> Okay. Very cool. >> Um link in the >> Very good. Oh, you're learning. Well done, Greg. >> Um, yeah. >> And also, of course, it's used for propagandic purposes >> domestically and internationally as well. >> Yeah. But you got a feeling that the food there is actually, you know, it's it's it's fully functional was your feeling? >> Well, I touched the vegetable. >> No, I mean, but I mean like is it, you know, it's they're using the greenhouse outside of the week of the Pyongyang Marathon. And how how else would they have vegetables growing there? >> Absolutely. Yeah, fair enough. Now, you like I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. I'm just, you know, >> it's just pure logic like like like >> absolutely. Why would they, you know, why would they allow us to go outside of Pyongyang, >> drive through the countryside, >> see other forms of agriculture, which is basically manual agriculture. >> So >> like human and animal power. Yeah. >> And animal power is like >> a luxury. >> So it's interesting. go here and then they would plant, >> you know, vegetables in most of the green houses. >> Yeah. >> Uh uh just for 180 people visiting for one hour. >> Yeah. >> And and then Okay. Then the other thing happened a lot of people called out is when we went to the football school football school. Uh then we went to the gym >> and people were like you know doing the workout and stuff and as soon as we left >> the students also left and the equipment was like put aside >> because someone wanted b went back for Sunday I think he forgot something there like they're all gone >> again same story as workers on a Sunday right >> it wasn't scheduled uh >> yeah they wanted to demonstrate which I I think is fair enough like if you go on an arranged visit to a school most people you know this in any country in the world generally the school will kind of put on some kind of event if you're like special guests which we were special guests and I think that whilst you know when we visit places like kindergartens and schools in North Korea and they put on some kind of dance show things like this it is a bit awkward mainly because the kids are so good at what they do as well it's kind of creepy like I get that But at the same time, this is not limited only to North Korea, you know, it would happen in in different contexts that >> Oh, in China for like I was teaching a Chinese school. >> Yeah. Yeah. You'd have to do that. Um, just going back to because you said uh that on the way to the farm on the way to the greenhouse, you go through a lot of farms and rural area and things like this. So, I saw a very interesting video on um on Instagram the other day that I had to kind of call out a little bit. And actually, I won't name any names. Um, but I did send them a DM and basically discussed to them why uh I didn't think that their video was okay. Um, and they actually talked back to to me and and said, you know, they don't really see the problem. Um, and it basically it was this video where um this guy filming, you know, the caption is um secret uh camps in the DPRK or I found I think he was German cuz it was all in German actually. It was like I found the secret camps in in North Korea or why did they let us see these secret concentration camps in in the DPRK? Tell us, Greg, did you see any secret uh concentration camps on the way? And uh what what do you think about this this video? I mean >> I haven't seen the video. >> Okay, >> that's number one. Number two, >> I would try and find it, but my phone is recording. >> Number two, there are concentration camps in North Korea. Okay, so by no means we going to deny it. >> It's it's a proved fact by various human rights organizations. This was my problem with this video is that it >> but we did not drive by any work camps or political education camps. >> Um >> it's it's not going to be next to a major road going to a major area because that's there used to be like other farm around. It's also way to Hang where the Chinese cemetery is for example. I don't see I don't know what he claimed to be. It just definitely was like a ruler agricultural area >> with like >> people working on the field >> working on the field and doing manual labor because there is no other like >> Yeah, I think that's what it is is manual labor. >> Yeah. >> And he might have seen soldiers because soldiers are actively working in agriculture. >> Yeah. But I think that's what annoyed me about it so much is it takes away from the seriousness of the actual issue of concentration camps as well. When you just film random people in a field and say that it's camps when the there is the issue of it, you know, it kind of takes away from that a little bit as well. Okay. So, no camps on the tourist trail is what you're saying. >> Cool. Um so uh in terms of any other itinerary items or special moments that you want to bring up >> special moments is meeting the colleagues we haven't met for years. >> Yeah. So even when you went so you went back before the Pyongyang marathon you went back to Pyongyang but you didn't see our KITC partners and colleagues because at that time when you went you were just meeting the um athletic association. So when we went back and we had tourists, that's when you met KTC guides because >> sorry when we went back and we had the runners um who were doing touristy activities in Pyongyang um that was when you had the KC guides because we then had guides with us, right? Yeah. >> So that was the first time that you'd seen them. Same with me in like 5 years. I remember us two both like trying to run through the airport, get get through first. You were you got through first started doing your in fact you interrupted listen you interrupted my very very sweet moment with our good colleague and friend who I won't name but you know exactly who I'm talking about. We were hugging it out and you were like Zary come here get your SIM card which >> you had a job to do. >> But you just you just said that the most special moment for you was meeting your Korean colleagues. You broke up that moment for me. >> Okay. you know that I was dealing with another Korean >> you you ended up spending time with and she can be quite you know >> yeah she can be quite bossy but actually she was lovely. Um the SIM cards though just on that topic my gosh must be now the most expensive internet in the world hands down easily. So before when um when I used to do like some little bits of Instagram I even live streamed ones in North Korea in the DPRK. Sorry, Greg. Um, when uh precoid, I would spend probably about €200 euros on a fiveday trip and that's using quite a bit of internet. And but still in low data mode, you know, still doing the absolute bare minimum, but uploading maybe a few videos, that kind of thing. This trip, my gosh, I don't want to admit how many hundreds of dollars that I spent. Um, but I think the it worked out. Is it 30 cent per megabyte it is now? >> I I have my notes somewhere but I I can't remember now. >> Anyway, I I think it is literally per megabyte. 30 cent or three cent. Either way, even 3 cent per megabyte is crazy. I think it's 30 cent per megabyte. I ran through that SIM card's internet like nobody's business. My gosh. >> And it wasn't working properly like >> Yeah, it didn't work properly. The internet in Yango, the Wi-Fi was working. >> I didn't try. >> You didn't try? Okay. >> Not Yangu. San. >> Oh, sorry. S I did try it when I was there for the uh >> FAM trip. >> Yeah. >> Not uh during Moraso. No. >> Yeah. H Yeah. But having Wi-Fi there in the in the um I have to say having Wi-Fi there in the uh hotel kind of changed the tour dynamic a little bit because people would be hanging out on the Wi-Fi instead of hanging out >> at least in my group. They were not although I largely misread some of the members in my group. >> Uh but my group wasn't that obsessed with like being online and stuff and then they were quite involved. >> Yeah. To be fair. So how it works for those that um you know went in the marathon and went there. It's quite frustrating to get online. It's one of those ones where you pay per, you know, you pay a a a 10-minute block, a 20-minute block, and you get a code, and then they they have to mess around with your phone a little bit as well. There's there's I don't know what they put in, but they take your phone, they do stuff for you, and then it and then it kind of works. >> No, they didn't. >> Oh, they took Well, okay. Maybe they just took my phone cuz I couldn't figure it out. Either way, it's one of these code things and it's not super and when you have 200 people trying to use it, you know, okay, 200 people not, but when you have more than three people, which is more than they've probably ever handled before, you had to wait in a queue to try and get it. Anyway, it was cheaper than the SIM card. Do you remember how much it was? H maybe like 20 room for 10 minutes or something. >> Yeah. Um cheaper than SIM card, but >> I know $1.7 for 10 minutes. Yeah, it's it's cheap, right, compared to the SIM card. Anyway, um I felt like it changed the dynamic a little bit at least. Um whereas before it would be you have to speak to each other. Now there was some people who would rather have been online. But at the same time, you're right. I think most people did decide to, you know, play pool upstairs or drink. >> I must believe that I had the I mean at least in country. >> We're still recording. We're good. At least in country I had the easiest group. >> Do you think so? Okay. So tell me about your group and tell me like any special moments about your first tourist group back to the DPRK in over five years. >> First group back to the DPRK. >> First delegation of runners. It is so tiring working with you sometimes. Okay. First group back to DPRK. >> It's not that hard. I think people can probably empa empathize with me anyway. Um, so tell us any special moments. Um, what was it like having tourists? Sorry. Sorry. Having people back there doing tourist activities. What was that like? And the group was nice. Any influencers, content creators? What What were the group like >> in country? The group was very nice. M dot dot dot >> uh and I had like very like they were very engaged. Uh very like know a lot of questions had a lot of very good conversations. >> What kind of people did you have in the group? Was it a big mix? A lot of runners, a lot of >> nonrunners, >> like the country collectors, the good and the bad >> kind. Uh, and like finishers like like for some it was the last country to visit out of the >> Oh, yeah. We did have a big group of about 20 who were visiting like their last country, right? >> I can count them all. It could easily because they clicked as a as a >> No, I saw them all hang out when we had the big um banquet at the end. Yeah, because they decided to have a >> Yeah. >> a meet up. >> Yeah, >> their cult meeting. >> U >> It'll be you one day. You're a country collector, too. >> Yeah. But as I point out, there are the good and the bad ones. >> Okay. So, you are obviously a good one. >> And and anyhow, >> say no more. uh and then it's just my subjective uh assessment. Okay? So I don't want anyone to, you know, >> to uh feel bad. Just because I I I don't agree with how people do some things, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't do it. >> No. But we're always happy to hear your opinion. >> Yeah. So you had country collectors and >> some influencers and some just genuinely interested tourists and >> I meanh >> sorry what >> travelers. >> Uhhuh. And no runners >> like I had one who is like sport like he did the he try to do the full marathon >> and someone had the half marathon and stuff but like my group was mostly at five and 10k. >> Okay. And I think >> Oh, and and actually it brings us back to the it felt really bad because >> she was not the loveliest person on my tour >> and uh she's a foodie. >> Mhm. >> And I think she works with some kind of food >> background >> and she wanted to come to Korea to try the Pyongyang noodle >> in Okyugan. >> Uhhuh. >> Onyugan. >> Yeah. That's so that's the famous the probably the most famous restaurant in North Korea. Um, it also was the noodles that um Kim Jong-un and H >> Kim Jong-un. But y >> and what did I say? >> Yongun. >> Did I Kim Jong-un? Um, and what was he called? The South Korean president Munjim at that time ate the noodles at Pam John area. So, it's a very famous restaurant. What happened? Did you not go? >> Just has been removed from the Italy for some reason. I don't know why. >> It's a shame. Uh because I've been there in March. That was my first lunch actually. >> A I like that. Straight from the airport to Okuan. >> No, straight from the airport to the hotel in the evening and the next day. >> Thank you for the correction. Again, I think people can empathize with me. >> Accuracy is important. >> Okay. Um so you weren't able to go there. Did you have Pyongyang cold noodles at all? >> We had uh uh Did we we had cold noodles, but it wasn't uh it wasn't the baki noodles. It was >> uh uh it's also a Pyongyang specialty, but it's like a uh uh fish called it it was cold noodle, but uh the garnish was like fish. >> Ah yeah. In the the different restaurant which >> the rainbow boat restaurant. Rainbow Boat Restaurant, right? Yeah, I remember. Um, okay. What were we talking about? I can't remember. >> My group. >> Yeah, your group. Any other comments on your group? >> No. >> On the people. Okay. So, um, cuz we actually don't have too much time left. Um, we just keep chatting away as we tend to do. Um, in terms of Pyang itself, I know so when you went back in March and in April, were there any things that surprised you? Because I think for me and probably speaking as a as a general in the company as well, we were probably all a little bit worried what we might come back to in Pyongyang. Uh we had no idea really how our colleagues had been living uh what hardships or not hardships that they'd been having to go through. And for me that was a big concern. Oh my gosh, what kind of Pyang are we going to return to? But then at the same time we'd also heard news about the new streets being built, things like that. And so there was obviously signs of development. I have to say without any um you know thoughts or feelings towards any government body subjectively like objectively it's impressive what they have done with the city like it's developed a lot since we were there to an almost unrecognizable extent how it's expanded in my opinion um and the new streets and buildings were impressive if not built probably very quickly and probably not built to last so well. We did see a few cracks in the >> already in the super or like >> Yes. Exactly. That's what I mean. So, you know, there there were some cracks and things pulling off um already, but at the same time to build entire streets, not just do the tarmacing, but I I can't get my mind around how they literally build entire apartment blocks and the apartments inside them and the streets themselves in these past few years, like in such a short amount of time. It's kind of crazy. >> Yeah. You have the military, you can mobilize, you have people you can mobilize. >> Yeah. There's nothing you can do if you don't care about, you know, >> that's true. >> Mobilize people >> for whatever you want to do. >> Absolutely. >> So, I I honestly I didn't don't really want to go into the new streets. The new streets can be seen everywhere on the internet. >> Uh what I saw as a development is the the shuttle bus >> uh concept. >> Yeah. So it's it's it's not that that they just built a new street and then Yeah. find your way home, >> right? Yeah. >> Uh they imported quite a few buses from uh China. >> Uh they even have the electric. So it's not like, you know, so it's it's it's a proper working 100% functioning bus >> from uh China. Imported from China. you can see them like uh during Russia or like buses after buses >> going to the new districts. >> Um so that was like a big wow for me. >> Um also like when we were driving around in the night and you looked into these like small shops, they were full of uh >> goods. >> Yeah. probably locally made such >> you know not the best quality but at least >> it means that uh there is a middle class who can afford buying snacks and stuff. >> Yeah, that's that's the thing the middle class. >> Yeah, >> female drivers >> was a new thing. I I can't recall seeing save the bus and uh term drivers. I I can't recall seeing uh women driving cars >> and I did recognize or notice a few >> female drivers which is again >> uh huge step ahead. >> Mhm. >> Um so there's a kind of a liberation movement for women going on I think. M >> um I haven't seen it but apparently there are uh like uh uh home delivery services now >> uh not just for food but for >> pharmacy as well >> as well. >> Yeah. >> Uh QR code payment. >> I we saw that in the zoo. Um do you remember with um with YJ um paying for that ice cream? She paid with QR code payment. That's cool. H >> uh um messaging app now with emojis and stuff. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that. Like when they So when they used to message previously uh like five or six years ago, um it was an SMS messaging system. So they would pay per message like we used to do 10 years ago before WhatsApp. Is WhatsApp around 10 years? I feel I'm feeling old now. Um so they they used to, you know, have to shorten their messages, things like that. But yeah, now they have a completely normal messaging system >> and then and now you don't have to go to a physical app store to download movies and stuff. You can download it using the >> internet. >> Yeah. >> Uh so at least it's >> it seemed to me >> that uh the middle class not just managed to keep their status. >> Yeah. But they did experience some uh uh development. >> Yeah, that was the feeling that I got as well is definitely the middle class is you know a strong class in Pyang and that they are kind of doing okay at least. >> Well, we didn't you know >> what what we can >> talk about the weekly menu and stuff. No, but on face value things like everyone everyone now so previously as well some people would have a smartphone. It was kind of normal to have a smartphone previously. Some people would even have two but now it was really like everyone had a smartphone and I think one thing that I noticed when I was running was that everyone was taking photos and videos of us as well on their smartphones. That was bizarre to me because everyone was just using a smartphone like we use smartphones, you know? They were they were videoing people as they went past. They were taking photos and I was like, I >> I never saw that before, you know, DPR Koreans taking photos of me. Okay, now I'm the zoo, too. You know, like instead of us just being like in their faces. That was interesting for me. Um, cool. Any other thoughts on uh any any changes that you've noticed? >> Oh, food delivery. They had takeaway pizza takeaway as well, >> but we had they had it before as well. >> Oh, really? Okay. Well, never mind. >> Jamong delivery. >> Oh, well, there you go. >> Sometimes it was delivered to me train station >> in Pyang train station. That's so random. Okay. Um were you gonna say any thoughts on on developments updates? >> Like like another thing which was interesting is uh that it was uh much more relaxed than what I expected. >> M Oh, it was very much more relaxed. But I think this was our special visas >> and it was also very confusing. >> Yes. Yeah. because we were there as as Greg has reminded us not as tourists but as a running delegation which meant that we were on special visas and I want to clarify that when we are there as tourists we are there as tourists which means that we are not permitted to walk around by ourselves we have to have two guides with us at all times however for for those that live in Pyongyang for those diplomats or anyone working for any NGO or or any other organization for those that live there generally their visas are different to tourist visas and therefore they don't need guides to walk around with them at all times >> for everyone because for example those who >> not true for everyone that's why I said generally >> those who work for uh Pyongyang University of technology for example >> they are confined to the premises okay the university >> yeah so it basically it completely depends on your visa what you can and can't do >> like which is very funny because let's say that like a couple is working there and they want to go on their anniversary dinner that they have to take a drive. >> I feel >> I feel like this is a story that you've heard from someone. Have you known someone who's worked there and has been a couple? No. Okay, that's what it is. >> I didn't make it up. It's >> right. Right. Right. Right. It's a true story. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like it. Um so, uh I like the driver just third wheeling on their anniversary dinner. Um, but my point is is that different visas allow you to do different things in DPRK and our visas I think this time was a little bit more flexible than we've been used to on tourist visas. For example, allowing us to do things like run in Pyongyang and even I I think it was chaotic as well because even the Koreans didn't really understand what we could and couldn't do because the tourism industry is a very very structured industry. It's very well established and so there are very clear rules on yes you can do this, no, you can't do that. the Koreans know it, we know it, we can pass it down to tourists or runners. Um, but this time because we were on these different visas, we were there as a special delegation, there was confusion from the athletics association, what we can and can't do, the uh Koreans who usually work in tourism what we can and can't do. And so we basically followed the tourist rules but with some flexibility as well. And so there was availability to go running in Pyongyang without the guides and you know where you could and couldn't run to was also not really said. It was basically up and down the sports street. But at the same time where does sports you know is it just to the end of sports street or can you go over the bridge that way? Can you go this way? Can you go down to Kwanog supermarket? you know um where was for me that there was no articulated clear limit either way it made for a very cool experience for me um because the running delegation um there is the groups which I wasn't part of I was in my own little group and they went on runs in the morning right which were kind of monitored at first but then I heard that in the end no one stuck together as groups and it kind of just got more casual um did you go on one of these runs no Um but uh and then people just went every single morning and some people ended up going out by themselves and that was all okay and I ended up also going out on a run by myself and that was one of the weirdest experiences that I've ever had in Pyongyang. We've been visiting for over 30 times over eight years and we've never been on the streets of Pyongyang without guides. And for me it was the wildest thing to just be running through the streets without a guide. Like that was a very cool experience for me. Um, and I'll be I've got a couple of videos up on that already, but I'll be I I took my 360 camera with me, you know, out on the streets. It was very cool. Um, but I think that that's that's one of the bits of chaos that you were referring to as well is >> No, I was referring to other things. >> Okay. What other things of chaos? You tell me. >> No, no, not like how legs they were at a certain tourist site or a certain point of interest. M >> uh which was like very confusing. >> Okay, fair enough. >> And it doesn't make any difference what status you are where the rules were not >> were not followed >> observed. >> Okay. >> And no reaction came from anyone. >> Uh so this is a very very strict site and so you're saying that maybe certain rules were not followed but nothing was followed up. Yeah, >> interesting. Um, let me check what how much time we've got left because my gosh, uh, we've almost been talking for an hour. So, actually, unfortunately, I'm going to have to wrap things up in a minute. Were there any final thoughts that you had that you want to go over? >> Oh, it's just again that we don't know when it's going to open again. >> Yeah, but >> I don't have a position on this debate. Is it because of the content creators or not? >> I'm going to start that debate next week. Don't worry. We don't we won't we don't have time to go into that now. >> My position is that I don't have a position. >> Okay. >> I I'm not convinced by either side. >> Um >> well, to be fair, my position is that uh you know, I think it can be multiple factors and it's probably maybe one of the factors, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. >> Yeah. But some people push it that you know, that's the main reason. people like deny it >> quite uh >> uh confidently >> and I suggest like again I don't know >> and be humble enough to say I don't know >> don't have an opinion if you don't if you can't I mean you know these kind of things if you can't back them up with facts >> very nice and so that would be a great place for us to stop but firstly I want to just mention that for those interested traveling in the Pyongyang Marathon 2026 whether it be as as a tourist or whether it be as a running delegation, we don't yet know. However, the early bird signups are now open. We don't have a date. We don't have an itinerary. We don't have any plan what may or may not happen uh for the Pyongyang Marathon 2026. But what we can say is that it's confirmed to run. Um it will happen and we will take people there maybe in the same capacity as this time, maybe in a slightly different capacity, maybe for longer tours, maybe for shorter tours, who knows? Um but signups are now open. >> Sign up for the race itself. >> Sign up for the race. Um and uh if you sign up now for the race, then you get 50% off your race entry fees. Um so I would recommend to sign up that for that now. It's going to end on the at the start of September. I think it's the 1st of September, I think. Um so make sure to put your name down. It's completely free to put your name down anyway. try to be as less involved in marketing as possible. >> This is a surprise to no one. Um, and of course, uh, Greg will probably be Greg and myself will be heavily involved in Panang Marathon 2026 if we don't return anytime sooner this year. Let's see. because you also have potentially a very interesting event in October for the Pyongyang Marathon uh sorry for the Pyong International Film Festival uh that you are maybe going to be involved in. I'll leave it at that for now unless you want to add anything to that. >> I have nothing again. >> Okay, we'll leave it at that. >> It's not just opinion. It's also >> if you don't have facts to back it up, then don't say it. And I have no facts to back it up if I'm going to be able to go or not. >> Okay. So, maybe we will hear from you soon from Kyang at the film festival. Maybe we won't. Let's see. >> Maybe not. >> All right. Well, >> maybe even sooner. >> Maybe. So, yeah. I don't know. >> Yeah. So, um, thank you for coming on to the show today. Hopefully, we'll have you back at some point soon. And thanks to all our listeners. Do you have anything to say to our listeners? Do you have anything you want to plug? >> No, not not anymore. Okay. Can they follow you on Instagram? Are you not bothered? >> They can, but it's pretty boring. >> Okay. I'll put your Instagram in the show notes if they want to look at that. >> You want to be, you know, see like one post in a year. >> Okay. I'll let them know. >> Probably about the airplane food. Yeah. >> Very true. Um, and if you do want to come on tour with Greg, uh, he's actually running our high pame tour, Turk Manistan tour, and Bhutan tour. >> Well, then they can come next year. Maybe it'll be one of us that doing it next year as well. Anyway, check out the website for international tours whilst DPRK tours are not available. Um, and maybe hopefully see you in an episode next week. If not, um, in the next couple of weeks going to try and get this podcast back up and running properly. >> Thanks for listening and watching. Like, subscribe. Wow. Thanks, Greg. Bye.