Ep. 41 Content Creation in North Korea (with special guest Anna Pelova)

[Music] Hello everybody and welcome to episode 41 of Discover North Korea, the podcast where I talk all things North Korea away from the politics and sometimes have guests to join me on the show too, much like today as I welcome fellow content creator Anna to the show. As always, when I have guests on the show, I do try and make it into a video. So, feel free to head over to YouTube to watch as we chat away. Anna's been creating some really interesting videos from her trip to the Pyongyang Marathon that aim to show the more nuanced side to North Korea. Pretty much similar to what I do. So familiar, in fact, that it seems you guys have been calling her out for copying my content. Just as an FYI, showing the more normal and human side to North Korea is not something I have copyrighted, and indeed is something I want more of you to be doing. So, let's applaud Anna for her work, and it's also given me some support, too, knowing that I might not be so crazy after all. The discussion today with Anna is mainly about content creation in North Korea, her experiences of creating her own content and calling people out, as well as some of the ridiculous things that people have been coming out with from other creators. One thing I will say is that some of the content that has been coming out has been positively ridiculous. And we do touch on some of this in this episode as I have done in prior episodes, but I think people really do forget how to act when they're in North Korea and also when they come back outside again. One thing I did notice with a lot of the content creators at Pion Marathon is that they were really nice, really respectful inside the country would really listen to all of the rules and would promise that they would, you know, run things past us if they didn't know um if this was okay to upload and would, you know, basically seem like really sound people there with really good intentions of just showing the country for what it is. But when they got back outside, it seems like, you know, maybe okay if I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they did have this intention, but when they started creating the content and found out it's the sensationalist, the stuff that really drives the views, that drives the engagement is the more crazy stuff, you know, that's all that they ended up producing. Um, and I do touch on calling out creators in this. And I have called out quite a few creators, sending them private messages. And the crazy thing is is most people don't seem to understand how what they're doing is wrong. And I'm not talking about just saying that the experience was crazy. I'm talking about putting actual fake news out there about North Korea and really just being damaging to everything that I'm trying to do here. Basically, there's even one guy who I called out who even himself had said that he made an account just for the viral North Korea stuff. He noticed that the North Korea stuff was getting a lot of engagement and going viral and so he just basically made an entire account just for the sake of doing this. It was about the fame. It's literally using North Korea and the North Koreans profiting from the regime, profiting from the suffering of the Koreans in order to get fame. Literally, their entire channel is just sensationalist stuff about North Korea. Like, why? What is the end goal here? And on a platform like Instagram where you can't even monetize your content, it's literally just attention seeking. People call me out for profiting from the regime and wanting to have in, you know, attention, but I want to make my intentions clear. And that is basically to promote tourism to North Korea because in the end, I believe that tourism to North Korea does good inside the country. I believe in engagement over isolation. So, just to set that record straight. And finally, we haven't really touched on the topic of did influencers close North Korea. So, did all of this negative press coming out of North Korea close the country? Well, you might have to wait until the next episode. I kind of want to get into the nitty-gritty details of that, but spoiler alert. M, no, I don't think so. Anyway, enough chat from me. Let's say hi to Anna. Very happy to welcome Anna to the show. It's so nice to see you again and nice to catch up um after seeing each other in in April and a very busy time. Maybe first before we get into chatting away uh like we tend to do um you can give yourself a quick introduction to everyone. Um and yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean I have this goal to visit every country in the world. So so far I've been to 105 and the 104th one was North Korea. So, this is how we met and very nice. Yeah, I like I like making travel videos like you and um I was really I don't know really I've always wanted to visit this place and and then I started watching your videos and I was like wow like this is so interesting. I want to have that experience and and then I had it and and I guess I picked up on a lot of the same things that you picked up on with the like making it more human and actually there's so much more. there's so many layers to discover there. So, yeah, that's why that's how I uh came on the trip and how I ended up meeting you now again. Yeah, I love it. Well, I have so many questions for you and I think you have questions for me, but my first question because you just mentioned it. Um, I want to know what country 105 was. Where did you go after North Korea? I went to Moldova. So, I went to Transnistria. Oh, that was Oh, that's so interesting. It was that is cool. There was so much like um USSR uh I don't know like it was it was like a trip back in time. So similar feel although North Korea it's it's very different. It's I think it's much more uh like progressed and like it's yeah like North Korea and Tresnist is more stuck in that era and they have this um like plastic kind of money right like colorful plastic. Yeah. They got rid of them because they they were telling oh they were so uncomfortable to to have in your wallet that they hated it. So I bought the souvenir. Oh okay. you know, um, just before we started this recording, we were talking about, um, I was telling you that I'm going to Sophia, um, in a few weeks time. I'm actually going to Moldover as well. So maybe now I know I needs to get some tips from you as well um, to go to trans ministry as well. So very cool. Okay. Um, I mean, I first wanted to start off by saying and talking about kind of the content that you've been creating, uh, about North Korea because, um, you're probably the only person, you know what, I've called out so many people from the Plang Marathon and and I Yeah. And I noticed that you did, too. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm pretty nice about it. You know, also I work for Coro Tours. kind of like a representative of the company. So, I can't I still have to be a little bit demure about things um and a bit like reserved um in a in a lot of ways. Um but I I learned a lot from you. I really did in terms of having the confidence to call people out and also having that confidence that you know I get a lot of backlash online about what I'm doing and and um you know showing these different sides to North Korea and um only showing one side and things like that and I I I get a lot of backlash on it and 99% of the time I can ignore it but 1% of the time especially if I'm feeling particularly down that day or whatever it does get to me and I I have to question what am I doing? Is it really, you know, is it really right? Blah blah blah. Because, you know, I'm the only person that's doing it. But when I saw your videos and also when I saw you call people out and when I saw you, you know, being sarcastic and confident and cool with your responses, I was like, you know what? Yeah, I have thick skin. You have to. But I understand how it gets to you like as a creator you become like I don't know people when they have an issue after their long day it's kind of like oh I'm just I'll just take it on her especially if you're like they feel like first they're anonymous they're not so I can also call you out with your picture and with your video and second of all like like why do you think I cannot fight back like I have every right to talk back to you like if you want to come and be rude I can be rude back but it's so Funny that that you're saying this that I was the only person like making videos about the the actual genuine experience because so many people were there especially our trip there were so many creators and they felt like oh what is the sensation and like they reported on things that were not true and even after them I I called them out you called them out like other people did they didn't take the video down because they they are fully aware what they're doing and that's That's worrying. And then like that's how it it changes the narrative about the whole country. And I view it as a country just like any other. And it's like okay there there's so many layers. There's so many things happening in there. It's not it's not flat. It's not black and white. And it's funny because one there was one person who accused me of copying you and then she she was like, "Oh, she's ripping off Zoe's content. Like look at this. Like I need to expose you." I'm like and she's like and she's reporting on the same things and so showing the same things. I'm like you are you you aware that we were on the same trip, right? Like and and actually Zoe shared that she likes my videos. So like and you know like I want more people to make the content I do because then I don't feel so weird about it anymore. And really, you know, it's it's I yeah I question myself like am I crazy really? But at the end of the day, I think you know the experiences I mean I want to ask you actually maybe you can describe your experience because a lot of people put it in this really sensationalist way um online and and not just sensationalist but a lot of people will literally directly lie. Um and then you have the sensationalist stuff and then you have my content which I admit 100% is is biased towards the positive or neutral side because I want to keep going back. Um, and I want to, you know, for me, my my platform is not there for that. You know, my platform is there to, it's a travel account that promotes travel to North Korea. Of course, I'm not going to um, you know, talk about the bad stuff. I watched this incred Oh my gosh, it was such a good quote um from this um I think it was BBC Travel or CNN little snippet uh just on YouTube before, like a a news article on YouTube just before we started this call and I just want to share it because it made me laugh. so much. Um, it was about the North Koreans going into uh, sorry, the Russians going into North Korea to the new Kalma Resort and they interviewed this um, this Russian and they asked her how it was blah blah blah. And then they also went to this North Korean restaurant in Moscow and they got a and when they went into the North Korean restaurant in Moscow, um she uh the reporter was given a brochure about the Kulma Resort like you know come visit here and and the rep the the report literally said oh um you know inside you can see um inside this this brochure you can see um seaside you can see deck chairs but you can't see the poverty and you can't see any famine around and it's like why would anyone put that in a tourist brochure like like it like I'm not saying it as eloquently as it was put but it was just a ridiculous sentence to say like why would they put that why would any country in the world put that kind of stuff in a tourism brochure anyway is those are yeah those are the same people that will go to Maldis and say oh it's paradise but you went to a resort like you never saw I I went to local Maldis I hated it by the way, but that's another topic. But it's it's like not not a fancy resort. It's full of trash. It's like so the place has so many problems. But it's and then they think, "Yeah, no one is talking about the Moutheast. Why aren't you showing the trash?" Like I I will start trolling under other people's content like, "Why aren't you showing the trash?" Yeah. Really? People don't want to hear that. So it's it's so funny. Truth and like Yeah. Yeah. But but but I want to know from you like and maybe our our audience kind of want to know what did you find about your trip from this kind of unique bias unbiased perspective that you're giving us because unlike me you don't need to keep going back to the DPRK although I'm sure that you want to um so you can be you know a little bit more you can say whatever you want to say you don't necessarily have to say the like that's not what I'm saying I'm saying in terms of someone who is completely completely unbiased. How was your trip? It was I mean, you know what? I had way more fun than I felt comfortable having. So, that's how I would put it. I liked it so much that it was every little thing that was normal for us in other places like going to, I don't know, going to the metro or going to uh going bowling, going to a restaurant, going to a coffee shop. Yeah. Everything. I was like, "Wow, this is so interesting." And I watched the entire group actually regardless of what people put out online like they were having fun. They were like actually like they were in awe of everything. So I had so much fun and for me it was like a little bit nostalgic. It felt a little bit like back in those uh school days when you were on a school trip. And yeah, I would definitely come back. And the reason why I keep it neutral to positive is because this story is not shown and like many people ask me like oh why aren't you criticizing it? So first of all if you want to be a guest in a country uh you have to leave the politics and your religion at the door that's like every single country in the world. So why would would I bring politics to travel content? I'm not a journalist. I'm not a I used to be politician by the way. That's like another story. But why would I bring I know that that's an interesting story. Okay. So I think what makes you good guests just leave it at the door. Like it doesn't matter what I think. I'm here and I should respect what they respect. So it's as simple as that. And people make it so much about politics and it's only about this country. So why are you singling out this? Yeah. Okay. There's there's a lot you can say about it, but that's the story that doesn't get reported on. So, you're like the only person that there there are a few documentaries as well. They're quite interesting. But also, if you notice, every single YouTube video starts with like North Korea. It's so dangerous. It's like the dictatorship and then they have this like military parade. Like they have the same literally every single intro. Yes. Okay. So, like do something different and Yeah. the same thing every time. Yeah. Really? Like North Korea, the world's last dictatorship, closed off state, and it's got all like cuts to like different military stuff. I did one like, I don't know, like comic take on that. You can share it if you want. We'll put it in the show notes. Anyone that wants to see, you can use it. I can send you the the video. Yeah. I'm not sure that I've seen that one. Excellent. Yeah, send it to me. But yeah, and also there are some of the spicy questions maybe I can ask you. Like for example, what about every time I post something about food and these videos blow up. Like I mean even if you report like neutral to positive, your videos are going to get millions of views. So I keep posting for that reason. Like there's no agenda. People think like oh you're like are you recruited by the government? Do you live there now? Like the people want to see those videos obviously if they get like four or five million views on a video. So absolutely if you post about food people are like oh people are starving. So what what do you say to that? Like what how what's the situation? You know I think we all saw with our own eyes the situation in Pya. So, and and I've spoken about this in in previous podcast episodes. Um, and I've spoken about this before that we as a company and me as an individual, I was kind of worried what I would go back into Pyang and see, you know, I was worried, oh, it's been closed for 5 years, they've had the pandemic, was expecting there to be, you know, really kind of everything to have kind of taken a step down. um and we were prepared to lower standards and things like that, the middle class in Pyongyang is thriving. You know, the there there is a middle class in Pyongyang. Um and whilst previously smartphones were kind of starting to be a thing, this is previously as in five years ago, smartphones just started to be a thing. Um and uh you know uh people you you saw you know people with going to fancy shops things like that. It seems like now you know everyone has a smartphone or two and um I I I've mentioned this before as well but one thing that I really love to see was people using their smartphones like we use our smartphones. you know, they have chat apps that they just chat on and instead of sending SMS that you have to pay for, they were taking videos and photos of us and I found that really interesting. And so I think we can only speak for what we saw in Pyongyang. Um but you know the days of famine in North Korea are over and I think people need to um and it's it's a difficult one because of course there is malnourishment in North Korea and of course there are areas of poverty and of course there are areas that don't get enough food. There are people that don't get enough food. This is all completely true. Um but at the same time it's not famine like it was in the '9s. Um, and people seem to have not got out of that mindset that North Korea and the whole population of North Korea is not in famine. In Pyongyang, I think that there's there's a middle class that's certainly very apparent, you know. Um, paying attention and looking through the windows because we were going like around. So all the shops they had like products, they had fruits, they had fresh stuff, they had snacks and I noticed many imported products from Russia and China in particular maybe other countries. Yeah, other countries as well but like more premium products. So was that a thing before when you've been or that's like more recent that they get more imported stuff? That's always been a thing to be honest. Um and it's always made me laugh because people a lot of people can't tell the difference between Chinese and Korean characters. maybe Russian characters they can tell the difference of, but we would always go to the supermarket or go somewhere to buy to buy local products and people would show me a big bag of ramen that they found that was like from China. And I'm like, that's Chinese writing on it. That's not Korean writing. So, there's there's always been um a lot of a lot of its own products. Uh sorry, a lot of foreign products. But what I found interesting this time, we're seeing more local products as well. So, for example, like um more local beauty products, more local um noodles, ramen, things like that. Um which I did see a lot more of. So, that was interesting. Um but yeah, they I suppose probably more foreign products now and probably more Russian products as well. Before the only thing that I remember seeing of being Russian before was ice cream, they used to have Russian ice cream which was like the good expensive one. So, yeah. I can say one negative thing. I didn't really like the chocolate there. But that's my opinion. It's awful. Did you try the jinseng chocolate? Not really. No. But I tried like all sorts of chocolate. And the first thing I did when we arrived to Beijing was buy a box of Mercy chocolates because I was I love chocolate. So, let's be honest, no one goes to North Korea for its chocolate. But they had really good cookies. Like they had these like f cookies with filling and and you're absolutely right. But sometimes they have these fancy fonts that they're using. So you you don't pay attention. I can tell the difference, but if I don't pay attention, I'm like, "Oh, I want to buy something local." And then I I look at it closely. I'm like, "Oh, that's Chinese." That's not Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, we noticed it even in um in Rasan um when we went on like a different trip. Um Rasan in the Northeast, there's the pharmacy and then then there they have lots of Chinese produce as well and things like that. But um yeah, there's always been, you know, the and the the topic of of just to go back and close that kind of topic of of famine and and food and things like that is I think that there are two realities in the country. Um there is the reality where people have enough and there is the reality where people don't have enough. Um, and it's, you know, it's it's that both of these exist and we were obviously only subject to seeing one of them. Yeah. Because like we said at the start, they're never going to want to show off this other side. Yeah. As well. But what I would say like we were on a somewhat like luxury trip like we had Yeah. We had the hotels these like venues that were for like weddings or I don't know company events. So it was it was a luxury trip. They were showing us the best. But then you I mean any other place you would think you would call that hospitality but in North Korea, right? Propaganda trip or like Yes. Exactly. I I think the problem lies when people are not critical thinkers and it does happen and it happens on my Instagram too where people think that that's North Korea, you know. And for us it kind of goes without saying okay this is hospitality this is luxury this is one side. However some people can be subject to this propaganda and do think okay North Korea is amazing. North Korea is this paradise which it is simply not. But it does have this luxury side to it. And they are luxury tours. They're tourism tours you know. Yes. There are luxury resorts like you mentioned. Yeah. But also Yeah. It's it's interesting because you I mean people say like oh they don't show you what what they they don't they they don't want you to see but yeah it's just that like I mean yeah with with this I always have the same comment that I say is um you know they don't show you they only show you what they want to show you but you can see a lot more and by that I mean things like um you know you might see um a school kid with completely blackened teeth or you might see uh someone missing a shoe or something like that. Is there any of that kind of stuff that you saw or is there anything stuff that you saw that you were like that's a bit oof? Not really. Only thing when we were driving to the zoo there was this land. It was like farmland. But then there was one YouTuber who made a video that this is a concentration camp and I was like I saw that me and me and Greg literally spoke about this on um last week's episode of the podcast. Like I thought it was on the way to the greenhouse, not on the way to the zoo. So it was on the way to the zoo. Was it on the way to the zoo? Maybe it was on the way to the greenhouse. No, either way it was in some countrysidey area. It was outside but it was just farmland. you could see the people working and then there are some buildings that were like I don't know I mean yeah you go to any farmland you would see stuff like that but because it's North Korea he was like oh this is a concentration camp and like how like what and he didn't take the video down that's another thing but anyway that's another topic but you know another thing that um was interesting to me was that they didn't they shared a bit of about the political stuff and the leaders and so on but they didn't overdo it so They didn't try to convince us of anything. They didn't try to brainwash us. It was just Yeah, they shared it. But most of the was focused around experiencing different places and seeing uh yeah, trying things, experiencing the local life, I would say. I mean, as much as that's possible for us because they do separate. So, it was really interesting in the metro they were saying that we get a separate car for us. So, I was hoping that we would mix with the locals, but you know, yes, that was a mistake. Yeah, that was a mistake on their part. And sometimes they do these stupid things without realizing what the repercussions will be. Um, and so they did separate you guys on the metro card when you got into the metro. That's the first time that they've ever done it. Really? And the only reason Yeah. And the only reason I can think that they would do it is because you What? How many in the group were you? Like 20 40? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, trying to get like Can you imagine being a North Korean like just casually on your way to work or wherever you are on your way to um and then like 40 foreigners all pile in, you're going to be like it's kind of going to be inconvenient and also intimidating. Intimidating if you know if anyone like if any group of anyone just piles into a card and so I think intimidating we were filming all the time. So yeah, exactly. And so I think I think they probably did it thinking about the logistics without thinking, "Oh no, this is going to look really bad to the foreigners because we're separating them, blah blah blah." Um, you're never usually separated in the metro, you know. Um, that I thought the foreigners were usually separated. So that was my thing. If you're because there are foreigners in North Korea and maybe if you live there, you always get your card like like in Japan where you have a woman's card. In North Korea, there's a foreigner card. I So that's not the case. Okay. So that's good to clarify because that's that but that's you go there with um yeah you go there you get like more answers and then you leave with more questions. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You always every trip even for me still always ends in more questions. Um so that's Yeah. Yeah. But but don't worry the in in the metro you're usually together because we were talking about the propaganda like them showing you different stuff that they wanted you to see. But what about what would you say is the biggest misconception that really rubs you and you're like you want to clear it out? That's a very good question. Um, oh, so I think the biggest misconception is definitely that it's all fake and it's all for a show. The only thing that I can say to people here is that you're not that important. Um, it's it's not that the world revolves around you. Why have a fake zoo, which some content creators have have called out, why have a fake metro, which we used to be a rumor, when you can have a real zoo and a real metro? like that that doesn't make any sense. Um, and when you start to think about the amount of time that you spend in the country and the amount of driving around that you do, why would you fake an entire country? You're not that important as a tourist in North Korea. And I think that that is the main thing. Um, that they that um Yeah, the main misconception is that it's not all fake. Like that must cost a lot to just build a fake country and then have you Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. It does not make any sense. Sure, some things might be curated, which is kind of what I started saying about before like um them separating people in the metro sometimes. Um you know, they will if you visit a school then they will set up the computers so it seems like the the kids are working on them. So they do shoot themselves in the foot a little bit with things like that um without realizing, you know, kind of the repercussions that it's going to have. Um, but this is a kind of curation. Um, and it's again the word that you described before. It's kind of a hospitality. When you go and visit a school, that's why they have these shows that they put on for you. Because to them, that's kind of this aspect of hospitality. It's not fake. Although, you know, a lot of people may say, "Oh, well, you know, the these this show was just put on for us." Yes, it was just put on for you. You're a guest. It's hospitality. But they also put Yeah. They put a tyonder show just for us and like the break not fake because then someone from our group broke his arm and like some people he broke his arm but then you got hit. Yeah, I got hit because I was behind two guys who were trying to like one was trying to hit the other with the stick and then the stick broke and went flying my way but I blocked it. But it was like nothing was fake. Like all everything like they train really hard for this. So they did it. Yeah. A lot of things you would think you call fake. Okay. Yeah. Clearly non fake, non-curated. And I can tell you as a working as like a tour leader there. Things go wrong all the time. We have to change our plans all the time. If it was so fake and so curated, we my life would be a lot easier. Let me tell you. But it seemed like they do it consistently from what you're saying because we were in the library and I was on one of the computers. So I was like playing around. No one stopped me. It was you're allowed to go on the computer. They they didn't say anything. So I was I just kept going until they they say, "Okay, let's go." There are more words. Yeah. And that's what it's often about is kind of, you know, there are rules and there are set rules. And I and I hope that you went in there very confident about what rules, you know, were in place and what not. Um because it's very important to follow these rules, but at the same time, it's it's important for tourists to kind of enjoy, you know, pushing these kind of limits and boundaries to a certain extent. Obviously, I wouldn't recommend breaking any rules or or extremely pushing boundaries, but things like, "Oh, can I can I go on this computer and can I can I look up stuff?" Sure. you know, um, and if they don't want you to, then they'll tell you it. But if it's not explicitly a rule, then it's then it's fine. And I think a lot of people will find it a lot more liberal than they're probably expecting and a lot more open. And I know that that's strange to say in the context of of North Korea, but where you have to go around with guides and where you have to go around um only in in certain places, things like that. But did you find it less restrictive than you thought previously? M I don't know if I had any expectations about this. I knew we would have guides but I found the guides to be really I mean there's some ice that needs to be broken with them but after it breaks they they get so comfortable with you sometimes that it becomes like a friendship or it feels like friendship and I posted about it and some people were like no she's a trained spy but like this person was in her early 20s I don't know if she was even 20 like how can she be so trained like that's um but you you feel like they're your friends and I don't know what your experience you've been there more times but many people from the group mentioned that oh I really missed the guides like very few people can relate to that like why would you but they are really they have something that maybe we've lost with all the technologies and all that stuff they connect in a more genuine way and when you experience that connection you're like wow I I really want to reconnect with that person so what is your experience with the guides and friendships definitely I mean, for me, and this is this is the topic that I wanted to talk to you about before, by the way. Um, because I noticed that you have posted like quite a few things about the guides and that you've been close with them and things like that. I think you can get very close with the guides. Um, there is that initial layer that you kind of have to break through because they're a naturally very mistrusting society. They can't even trust their close friends and family. This is, you know, one of the reasons why why the country still remains as it is because there is a distinct lack of trust between even the closest of people. Um, and so they're never going to trust you 100%. However, as someone who visits there frequently, I definitely have built up friendships. And I think what you felt when you were there, um, you know, kind of getting close to the guides, it's natural that when you spend so much time with somebody over a few days, then you're going to get close because you are with the guides pretty much 24/7, all of your waking hours. Um, it was their first time as well to to have this amount of tourists in five years. So, they were probably extra excited to speak to you as much as possible. Um, and you know, you'll probably remain, it was probably a bit of more of a special tour this time because I feel like when the guides have like a lot of turnover of um, the tourists, for example, if they have a new group every single week, which they usually do in peak tourism season, then they probably get a bit sick of meeting tourists, you know, new tourists every every week. And it's definitely a kind of um you know they find it harder I think to have a connection but as someone who was there part of their first group for the first time I think you will remain in their memory um just like they're remaining in yours and for me that's one of the reasons why I really love the job is the guides. Um whenever I visit any country in the world it's always about the people and North Korea is no different. I I absolutely love the guides. the colleagues that I work with, some of them I definitely call my friends. Um, and I think we have close connections and that's been the toughest thing about not being able to to go back to North Korea would definitely say, would you say they're spies or like they're like minders or government minders? Um, no. You know what? Um, no. When you speak when you speak to them, you you'll find out that so to become a tour guide in North Korea, they're highly trained. So they will first go to university, probably the foreign language university or something similar. Um they will then go through tour guide training. Um it it takes a long time to get to be a tour guide. A lot of them, you know, will be failed diplomats or failed um you know, trying to get high up um kind of some kind of foreign office, government job, something like that. Um and so they decide to go into tourism instead. Um, they're not they're not spies. I would say you experienced it. They're like they're tour guides, you know? They're trained tour guides. I was saying I was telling people the same like they are maybe they love their job. Like if you're a tour guide, you love talking to people and and even one of the guys we were I mean she was sitting next to me a lot for the first few days and then we were talking a lot and then I guess someone tipped her off from her team saying like just talk to other people. Don't get too close because you're going to regret. I don't know if they did then she started talking to more people. So I was like why isn't she sitting with me? But I I understand like for me I'm experienced meeting people and then say goodbye but maybe they don't have that so maybe for them it's harder but they don't I mean sometimes they put their poker face like one of the guys I was like oh I wish we could stay in touch and then she was just like she pretended not to hear me and just oh but you didn't feel like like done with a bad intention she was just like I don't know how to tell you this but you know yeah I kind of That's been awkward positions as well. I think a lot of the time like the guides I will always say that the guides are on your side. You know when we're talking about sky spies or government minders the guides are the ones that are on your side. And if they tell you not to do something or if they ask you to to Yeah. If they ask you to not do something, it's because someone else is watching and someone else is going to tell you off or it's because they they um you know they they know the rules of this place or something like that. Like they are on your side. They don't want to get in trouble themselves. They don't want the group to get in trouble and they don't want you to get into trouble. Um and so yeah, when we talk about government minders and and spies, I think they are the first layer of protection against any government minders and spies at the end of the day. And they I I feel like they genuinely love their job and they they Yeah, they do feel the same like you some of them do. You cannot fake. Some of them are lazy. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I don't know. I only talked to our guides were amazing in our group. Like I I don't think everyone had the same experience to be fair. Some people had guides that were really strict like school teachers like don't do that. But even even those open up to some people. So they are they're just humans because we are small. Absolutely. And I think that's probably tricky as well about going in and out several times for me, whereas a lot of people only experience it once. It's the look of the draw sometimes. And you can get a really liberal guide or you can get a very strict guide. And that's part of my job as a tour leader is if, for example, we're on tour and it's a really strict guide, I kind of basically have to rein them in a little bit and be like, "Listen, let's not be so strict now." Um, and things like that. Um because then people do go away saying, "Oh, yeah, no, we weren't allowed to take photos outside of the bus." When in reality, these things are okay. It's just you might have a very new guide um who really wants to play things by the book. Um something like that. So, we kind of have to um You love your job as a tour guide. Me? Yeah. Because you're also a tour guide. Yeah. I love it. Oh my gosh. Um you know what? It's it's not a job that you can do if you don't love it because it's hard work. Um, you are working 24/7. You have to be incredibly patient answering people's questions, sometimes ridiculous questions. People turn into babies when they're on when they're on tour. I swear. Um, you have to pretty much hold their hand through everything. Um, but I absolutely love it. And for me, it's less about the guiding aspect and more about um being that kind of bridge between two very different cultures and kind of this mediator. Um I love it and I love meeting people from all over the world. That's that's one of my favorite thing things is is meeting everyone. So yeah. So, okay. I'm I'm interested in in talking about your social media content just cuz um I I mean I've really loved it, but I'm interested to hear about um what's been super what have been some very popular videos of yours and why do you think that they've been popular? And does that um coincide with what you think is your favorite videos? Like have you started producing content on what you think the audience wants to see or are you just continuously uh you know posting content on what you like to see? Um yeah Korea or in general? Yeah, North Korea. I think whatever I post about North Korea like blows up. So yeah, some videos get 10 20,000 and some get like I got one that is like over 4 million. I don't think there's like a way to predict it and it's not always my favorite video because for example I put so much effort into the marathon video. I I cut like many different videos and that performed I mean initially it performed really badly but then I had another video which is like recording something like recording the cars for example and oh there are no cars in North Korea. Check this out. And then people are like super pissed off that I'm showing cars for some reason. But it's I I think just showing I mean sometimes it's just like recording and showing it as it is. And yeah, I might edit the colors a bit like adding some like um headline, but it's it's just I think the raw videos are are more like get more traction. Uh if they're overedited, they also get traction. sometimes they would get but I think yeah people like to see the the documentary style the content that is like more uh yeah low production but it's uh I mean I had one about flying with Korea air um and that like I was narrating this so I think I don't I don't know if there's a formula to predict it but if if it's slightly controversial like sometimes I'm also guilty of that because I would add a title that I know is going to prevent people to comment. So like commenting is is one thing that yeah with nor yeah you need to get the engagement they want to comment. So if I add like a slightly controversial element it always like blows up. And uh okay so you you would say you do that kind of deliberately as well but I would say do what you I mean you still have to be genuine like yeah sometimes you can tweak some things. You can tweak the headline. it a little bit more provocative. Uh provocative, no provoking. Uh but you have to be genuine. Like don't put stuff that is fake. Like some people and I understand why they would do it like straight up lying about stuff. That's I don't think that's that's correct and that's like uh that's why influencers have a bad reputation. But so make sure it's genuine. Make sure you're posting something that it's not like against what you believe in and then and then let let the people judge that video. Yeah, definitely. That's been the most frustrating thing for me is to try and battle against um we kind of said at the start calling people out, battling against because you know I feel like I spend my years basically trying to trying to expand this narrative, trying to show this this truthful side of North Korea. And then you have other people being like, "Oh yeah, here's a concentration camp. Oh yeah, I was force-fed dog meat. Oh yeah, we were surveillance 24/7." And it's just like that's just not true. Um, but I've seen that you have been like calling like what what how have you found the experience with getting comments? What have been some some of the biggest backlash that you've got? And also, um, I noticed that um, at one point you went through down a complete rabbit hole calling someone out um, going to their business listing, was it? Yeah. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. I think, you know, no one's anonymous. And then one comment in particular was something like I don't know if I should mention it because it was really brutal like oh they should attach you to one of the nukes and and I stuff like that and I see it's a verified profile then I click and I get how people just business owner like you have so much at stake like when you make a comment like this I have every right to put your comment and put your image and start talking like look what he said like you're not anonymous like I can I I I mean what I did also wasn't cool but I I stand behind my cringy actions. So I went to I saw that he's an owner of a hotel. So I went to the hotel and I'm like I just copy pasted the uh comment and I put it like the and I wrote like this owner is abusive like don't like uh you know be careful if you're a social media influencer. He might start commenting this on your videos. And I put it funny. He was I love it pissed. He was so pissed off. He was like threatening me like my lawyers like I'm going to sue you. I'm going to get your visa revoked and you know like someone these are intimidation tactics. So I I laughing and um and at some point I was like I don't know like he he has more lawyers than I do but I have access to cheaper lawyers here in Bulgaria than he has in but it's funny how he was threatening like I'll get your visa revoked. I'm like do you think you have that kind of authority? Like really like a visa for where? Where did you go? So like I'm not even there. Like yeah, I have a visa for us. Okay. And like he reported me to the FBI. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to report to the FBI, too. But you're in the US. I'm not. They're not going to deal with me. They're gonna deal with you. So I really like we had this exchange. So I'm like, dude, you're you're such a clown. Like come on. Like you just let it go. People can't admit that they're wrong sometimes or that they, you know, it doesn't matter whether they were wrong or not with, you know, the baseline stuff, but to abuse someone on social media is is wrong. Yeah. And I see people like posting content and then they have these men in the comments like, "Oh, you're like, "No one's going to want to date you." And then they start putting their pictures and then it's like some dude that's like, "No one's going to want to date him." But I feel I'm all for that because like as a creator you get so much you know so much of people's mental trash and you don't have to. So like you if you want to comment like okay be my guest but you want to be rude like I have every right to expose you and show your face after you do that. Yeah. Like this dude was crying like I defamation I'm gonna my lawyers are going to reach out. I'm like, "Okay, Americans so funny." They just relate to that. I didn't take my Google review down. I think Google did cuz it was not like I did not stay. Yeah. Okay. But I Yeah, I really have to commend you because it took me about five years or about four years of like kind of abusive comments on social media. It took me genuinely this long to start standing up for myself more. And I've started to realize as well that like you know your social media platforms it's like someone coming into your house right it's like your home. You are inviting people in especially as content creators. Sure my my door is open. Come into my home but then don't be rude about it. And if you are rude then you're not invited anymore. Just leave. Like not even leave but I'm kicking you out. You don't owe them to be polite. Like I is rude. I'm going to be rude. like I I and I can I have many levels of rude that I can get and I have no problems with that. So that's why I tell some of them like you want to come here being rude, don't don't like if you get a slap back, don't be surprised because some are like oh why are you so aggressive? Like what did you expect? I'm not what you want me to cry about it. No. So yeah, I mean it's uh it's it's sad but people think they're anonymous and they're not. And some people get really petty. Like I could have gotten more petty. But honestly at that time I had so many projects cuz I also do work. So I have other stuff and I I was just I had more you have a life. Yeah. I would have these people do not have a live but yeah just like don't don't expect you're anonymous because you're not. That's something I remind myself when I make comments that always like and even your friends might see that comment because algorithms are so stocky in a way that make a comment is going to show the video to your friends. So also like yeah and that's another point you sometimes I just say thank you for boosting my engagement even if like super super rude. These type of videos get the most of views. Yeah. I I don't know if you've noticed like I think Instagram is being like super sneaky recently at the moment as well. Like like you said sometimes if you say something then your comment might appear on like a friend's you know your friend's profile. ah like they commented saying this and yeah and what I've noticed recently as well hilariously um like guys that I've been dating or have dated in the past um for some reason on reals it shows you like what people have liked now I don't know why Instagram would introduce this feature but I find it hilarious because you can literally see um what reals your friends have liked. So, I obviously have guys that I've like dated or whatever and like I will just be like, "Okay, what have what real have they liked to hear?" And it's like some sexy exercise girl working out video and I'm like, "This is so Why is Instagram just showing these things pulling people?" Like, I haven't seen it, but yeah, it's like u you can really see someone's red flags by what they like, they comment on. So sometimes someone you date, sometimes it's your employer seeing that. So if you really want to make a cringe comment, one of my greenest flags um of um one of my exes was their um Instagram search bar. You know how like I don't know if you've ever had this before, but like if you're ever putting your Instagram into someone's phone, into a guy's phone, um it doesn't matter like what relation to the guy, you I I study in Taiwan and I literally um gave my Instagram to one of my colleagues who's um who I study with um and he's like this this older guy um and I was putting my Instagram into his phone and it literally just on the shirt search bar just came up tons of girls in bikinis and and whatnot. Um but my ex's search bar was always just robots and um drones and things like that. So that was always the greenest flag for me. Um, but yeah, Instagram really gives a lot away, I think, these days. So, we have to be we have to be accountable. We have to be careful and it's it's a good thing because you can't hide it away online anymore. So, yeah. And uh yeah. Oh, I have one other question. Let me please. Yeah, because another thing people say is like you went to Pyongyang like go to the countryside expecting that maybe the countryside is so horrible and Pyongyang is like just like one of like city that is just super different. So you've been to the countryside like I don't know more than 30 times or how many times? So what is your experience in the countryside? Countryside is a big place. Um so it depends what we're talking about in the countryside. You know what? I've been to some very countryside places that there are hardly roads. Um, it's I've been to, how can I put this best without being offensive not to North Korea, but to other countries? I've been to poorer countries than North Korea. Even in North Korea's countryside that I've been to, obviously, it's not the worst places in North Korea. again because these trips are curated and they even even the countrysidey places um they're not going to show you the worst of the worst. However, at the same time, I have had some pretty interesting trips where that were not planned where, for example, I had to drive all the way from Senuiji to Pyang because we missed the train. Um and we did go through some driven you drove Yeah, we drove from You drove a car in North Korea. That's okay. I did not drive. I did not drive. No, no, no. But but they drove and it was uh yeah it was very dodgy. Um because this is not a normal tourist route. We literally just had to do it because we missed the train. Um and you know you see a lot of things like people just standing at the side of the roads. Um roads that aren't pretty that pretty much aren't roads anymore. Flooding oxes pulling carts things like that. Um, but at the same time, I've been to a lot of countries in the world that are probably a little bit worse off than that. And so, yeah, it's it's tricky. The countryside is very different to Pun, I have to say. Uh, but at the same time, it's not as if it's, you know, black and white difference. It's not a different reality. It's still the same country. And you still have different levels of people in the countryside as well. you still have poorer and richer people just like in any country you will have different kinds of people um and so I think that's that's important to note as well but it's it's definitely not like you step out of Pyang and suddenly it's a different world completely oh my gosh I was completely lied to about Pyang Pyang is very different just like London is very different to Hull in the UK you know it is very different but it's not a different country and you know Yeah. Yeah. And you can go to a ski resort, you can go to the seaside. So there's like many different places. It's a whole country. Again, that that brings back to the topic that it's not a movie set. It's a country. So it has many Absolutely. Yeah. And you're right, like the countryside is, you know, it can be anything from the seaside to um Yeah. to a ski resort and to hiking areas and things like this. You know, it's it's it's hard to say what's the countryside like in North Korea because it's not just Pyongyang and the countryside, you know, it's a country of the countryside places in Bulgaria where is like abandoned villages. So, it's and I can really nice resort towns like the one that I'm but yeah. Nice. Yeah, I've I've honestly I've been to a couple of places that um you know, you I've driven around mainly in the northeast area. Um, you know, I've driven around and been like, okay, like these are these are some poor places. Um, and these are some pretty pretty rough housing. Um, you can definitely tell, okay, we're definitely not in Kyang at this point and this is definitely not the North Korea that they want to show you, but you know, they also do let you see it. No secret that they're keeping in the countryside that people haven't seen. That's my point. Yeah. All right. So, we have spoken already for so long now and we we could honestly just keep chatting away forever. Um, but I know that you have stuff to do and get off. So, maybe we can have you back on the podcast at some point. Uh, we we honestly barely scratched the surface and it's been really great talking to you and I have constantly enjoyed your videos. So, please before you go um give the audience um a bit of information on where they can find you, where they can find all your videos, things like that. Um, and anything else that you want to say to everyone? Yeah, sure. So, they can find me on Instagram is my name, Anna Pelova, and on Tik Tok is visit every country as one word. And I I just posted my um I don't know, my first YouTube videos. I've done it before, but I'm not on YouTube, but I posted one about the snacks and the the souvenirs I bought. I spent like two $300 on that. So, you can check it out. It's still like if you search my name, it's going to come up. Super. All right, I will also put the link in the show notes so you can just click into that Anna and follow Anna. So, thank you everybody for joining the podcast this time. Hope you enjoyed and see you next time. Thank you. Bye.