Enhance Entrepreneurial Innovation: Psychedelic Insights for Limitless Creativity w/ Paul Austin

a gentleman named Douglas Engelbart who invented the computer mouse and the computer screen interface who also talked about his own psychedelic experiences. So in modern time, there's a pretty substantial percentage of entrepreneurs and founders who are working with psychedelics. Tim Ferriss, who's a well-known podcaster, he was quoted as saying that every billionaire he knows, without exception, uses psychedelics to help with creativity, innovation, and leadership. And so the two main benefits that I would boil it down to would be neuroplasticity and courage. And neuroplasticity is the ability for us to learn quickly and adapt to uncertain situations. And every entrepreneur who's either building a business or running a business knows that there's a lot of uncertainty. We have to make choices and decisions without all of the information available. Welcome to Super Entrepreneurs Podcast. I'm your host, Shahid Durrani. Today we have with us Paul F. Austin. Paul is a leading figure in psychedelics, founded Third Wave, guided millions safely through transformative experiences. Featured in Forbes, Rolling Stone, and BBC Work Life, he merges psychedelics with personal and professional success. Welcome to our show, my friend. Thank you, Shahid. It's great to be here. Yes, glad to have you. You mentioned that psychedelics is like a skill. Can you elaborate on that? That's a great opening point. A lot of people hear about psychedelics, especially those who are fairly new to this whole world, and they feel maybe like they're interested or curious about them. They've maybe seen some of the research or media that's come out about it, but they're a little intimidated by the fact of working with them. And so to help ease that process, I compare psychedelics to learning how to cook or learning how to write or even learning jujitsu, like a martial arts, where there's like beginner ways to start so you can get a sense of how do I work with what we might call altered states of consciousness. And as I deepen that practice, just like when you learn how to cook better, just like when you learn how to write better, just like when you become a brown belt or black belt in jujitsu, you have a certain level of mastery in that skill set. And that's why I love microdosing so much, because a lot of people hear about psychedelics and they think, oh, I don't know if I want to take three or four grams of mushrooms, which would be a high dose, or I don't know if I want to go drink ayahuasca necessarily. But microdosing feels like a way that I can dip my toe in, get a sense of how does this feel, how does it affect me, what are the types of impacts? And then as they observe that and notice that, then they can look at, oh, do I want to deepen that practice? Do I want to potentially work with a coach or guide or therapist when working with psychedelics? And so framing it as a skill just helps us to know if I use this with intention, if I commit to the practice, then as I master this skill, what people find is they're more present, they have more creativity, they can communicate maybe difficult things better. So there's all these other, I would say, secondary benefits that come from learning how to work with psychedelics in a skillful way. That makes sense. So are these legal? Yes and no. And so it really depends on the jurisdiction that you're in. One of the projects that I started was a legal mushroom retreat center in the Netherlands, because in the Netherlands, psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, is legal. And so with a Dutch co-founder, we were able to host retreats there where a lot of Americans would fly over and people from other countries would come and they could legally work with psilocybin mushrooms in the Netherlands. In Jamaica, it's also legal. And then in a lot of Central and South American countries like Costa Rica and Mexico and Brazil and Colombia, psilocybin mushrooms, as well as something called ayahuasca, is legal. Now, when it comes to the United States, it depends on the type of psychedelic. So there's a substance called ketamine, which is commonly known as an anesthetic. It's been used since the 50s in emergency rooms. And about 20 years ago, people found that ketamine also has fantastic effects on depression and suicidality in particular. And so ketamine is totally and completely legal in the United States. It can be prescribed off-label for depression. There are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people who in the last, especially since COVID, the last three or four years have worked with ketamine to help them with anxiety, depression, and just overall mental health. Now, when we're looking at psilocybin mushrooms, they're following a somewhat similar path as what cannabis followed in the United States in that certain states are legalizing psilocybin mushrooms. So in Oregon, you can fly to Oregon right now and legally work with psilocybin mushrooms. And it's the same in Colorado. Colorado has also legalized psilocybin mushrooms, but in every other state right now, they're illegal. The final thing that I'll mention is there's a drug called MDMA, which a lot of people know as ecstasy. And MDMA is on the verge of becoming approved by the FDA. It'll happen next year in 2024 to treat PTSD. So by probably September or October, physicians prescribing psychiatrists will be able to prescribe MDMA to clients of theirs that have PTSD. And they found in that research that MDMA assisted psychotherapy. So it's not just, here's MDMA, but you can just go take it at home. You do it within a therapeutic setting with a guide or a therapist. And they found that it's three times as effective as conventional treatments for PTSD. And of course, this is really important because we have something like 22 veterans committing suicide every day. There's a lot of people who struggle with PTSD and nothing has worked. And so MDMA, when it is approved next year by the FDA, will really be a breakthrough treatment for those who haven't really found a way to heal their PTSD previously. Okay, but would you consider these addictive? Yeah, so what's interesting about psychedelics is a lot of people hear about psychedelics and they think, oh, these are illegal for the most part. And because they're illegal, they must be addictive or harmful. When in fact, there's a lot of nuance or difference between, let's say, psychedelics and heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and other fentanyl, other drugs that people know about. A lot of those cocaine, opiates, crystal meth, these are all addictive. Psychedelics are actually anti-addictive. Psilocybin, which is in psilocybin mushrooms, is the safest drug available to us, legal or illegal. It's safer than alcohol. It's safer than tobacco. It's safer than cannabis. And in clinical research, they've shown that when psilocybin mushrooms are used, they're incredibly effective at treating alcoholism. They can be effective at treating nicotine addiction. There's other psychedelics that are really effective at treating opiate addiction. And so these are not physiologically addictive whatsoever. And that's important because even legal drugs like Prozac and Zoloft and Ritalin and Adderall, which are used to treat depression or ADHD, these are all addictive. If you start taking a conventional psychiatric medication and you stop taking, you have withdrawals and there's lots of other issues. Psychedelics are not like that at all. A lot of people are working with microdosing or other psychedelics to wean off these conventional psychiatric medications because you can do it on a semi-regular basis and you have no withdrawals. There's no addiction whatsoever. So the reason they became illegal in the first place was not for scientific reasons. It was for political reasons. A lot of people who were using psychedelics in the 50s and 60s were also part of the anti-war movement in the United States against the Vietnam War. And so the US government knew that they couldn't arrest people for protesting, but if they made the drugs like LSD and mushrooms that these people were using illegal, they could throw them in jail. And so that's why they became illegal in the first place. It's not because they're addictive or harmful or anything like that. Ayahuasca is used for spiritually awakening as well. Can you speak about that? So Ayahuasca is a tea. It's made from two plants in the Amazon. It's been used for over 1,000 years by indigenous peoples in the Amazon. And the experience of Ayahuasca, the main psychoactive in Ayahuasca is called dimethyltryptamine, DMT. And so when you drink Ayahuasca, you're essentially working with, let's say, a plant medicine that has a lineage of use for over 1,000 years, if not longer. And research has shown that Ayahuasca can be particularly helpful, again, at treating depression, addiction, PTSD. But a lot of, to make this relevant for this audience, a lot of entrepreneurs are now working with Ayahuasca because it helps them to have improved creativity and this sort of spiritual awakening that you talk about. And I know usually in business and entrepreneurship, we're not so focused on the sort of spiritual realm. Many of us are much more focused, we're driven, we're ambitious. We want to be successful. We want to help people create products and services that are useful. And for anyone who is an entrepreneur or a founder or in a leadership position, the skill that is being asked of us more and more is to be innovative, to be creative, to be adaptable. And so when we have these, let's say, spiritual awakenings through Ayahuasca, what people find is life becomes more meaningful, it heightens their awareness of existence, it expands their minds. So all of a sudden, they have creative ideas that otherwise wouldn't have been accessible. And generally, people find a lot of benefit from it. Probably the most famous person who's recently spoken about Ayahuasca is Aaron Rodgers, who is one of the best NFL quarterbacks of all time. And he has talked about how he's gone down to the Amazon and worked with Ayahuasca and it's helped him with his mindset in particular. And I think that's another important aspect to emphasize is because these experiences are so intense, it really helps to cultivate a mindset of resilience. It really helps to cultivate a mindset of, I would say, commitment and courage. I often compare it to confidence, right? I often compare it to I do cold plunging on a pretty regular basis. And so when you go into the cold plunge, it isn't always that comfortable and it's not always fun necessarily, but the way you feel after it is amazing. And Ayahuasca is similar. The experience can be quite uncomfortable. There can be what they call purging, which is vomiting or other aspects. But people find again and again that after they come out of those experiences, like I said, they feel more happy, more creative, more present, which has a lot of benefits. For entrepreneurs who are maybe burnt out or stressed, or they have a lot going on. And so working with psychedelics can help them to manage all of the complexity of their day-to-day life. Yeah. I take cold showers. I haven't done a plunge, but I've been taking cold showers for years now, since 2018. It definitely is the after effect that is amazing. Can you speak a little bit more about the psychedelics for entrepreneurs? What are some of the key specific benefits that they gain in their day-to-day work or overall transformation? So what's really interesting about psychedelics is they are interwoven with the tech industry in particular. And so in the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of research done at Stanford University with LSD in particular when it was legal. And a lot of those people in Palo Alto who were part of the experiments or were around in that period of time, they went on to become some of the most prolific inventors or CEOs in Silicon Valley. Steve Jobs is the most well-known example, but there was also a gentleman named Douglas Engelbart who invented the computer mouse and the computer screen interface, who also talked about his own psychedelic experiences. So in modern time, there's a pretty substantial percentage of entrepreneurs and founders who are working with psychedelics. Tim Ferriss, who's a well-known podcaster, he was quoted as saying that every billionaire he knows, without exception, uses psychedelics to help with creativity, innovation, and leadership. And so the two main benefits that I would boil it down to would be neuroplasticity and courage. And neuroplasticity is the ability for us to learn quickly and adapt to uncertain situations. And every entrepreneur who's either building a business or running a business knows that there's a lot of uncertainty. We have to make choices and decisions without all of the information available. And a lot of those choices and decisions come from, I could say, our intuition or our gut. And so when we work with psychedelics, it allows us a spaciousness to really listen to ourselves about what do we think is the best path forward? How do we collect as much information as we can and make a really informed decision from that? And how do we adapt to novel situations, novel context? Because when we work with psychedelics, what's happening in the brain is it's increasing the production of something called BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. And BDNF is a precursor to neuroplasticity. So if you look at brain scans of people who are on especially higher doses of psychedelics, the two hemispheres of their brains are communicating at a very high level. And so that communication helps to make the brain more malleable. And when the brain becomes more malleable, we can learn quicker and we can adapt. So I would say that's the first core benefit. And the second is, like you mentioned, fearlessness or courage. That being an entrepreneur, we often have to strike, we're pioneers. We have to make courageous decisions about all the information available to us. And sometimes in our everyday life, fear and the constriction of fear can hold us back because we don't think we're worthy or we don't think we're going to get it right or whatever that is. And when we work with psychedelics, what's happening in the brain is there's a tiny little almond-sized thing that's deep in our brain that's called the amygdala. It's also called the reptilian brain. It's the oldest part of our brain from when we were mammals hundreds of millions of years ago. And the amygdala dictates our fear response. And so whenever we're faced with a difficult situation or we have to confront something that's challenging, the amygdala is starting to ratchet up and make us a little bit fearful. And so what psychedelics do is they downregulate the fear response from the amygdala. And so all of a sudden then as an entrepreneur, we can actually make choices and decisions not out of a place of fear but out of a place of fearlessness or courage. So working with psychedelics will often help people to go, okay, this is where I am. This is where I want to go. What's the discrepancy between what I want to create and where I am? And how do I have the courage to bridge that gap? And psychedelics often provide a sort of vision or clarity on, okay, this may be difficult or challenging to do, but I feel like I'm confident, I'm equipped, and I can actually create the thing that I want to create. And a lot of it, again, comes down to the sense of less fear, more openness, more courage, which allows creators, entrepreneurs to be fearless. Yeah, they get into that creative state. Once you take out the fear component, you take bigger risk. And to be honest, in entrepreneurship, it's all about risk taking. And risk management as well, discernment between, okay, this feels like a great idea, and I know these are all the potential assumptions. So it definitely helps with taking risks. But I think what's important to emphasize is they don't have to be uncalculated risks. In other words, when I work with psychedelics myself, I have a lot of insights or downloads, or maybe I should do this or do this. And part of the integration process after working with a psychedelic is coming back and do it in a more, let's say, sober state of mind and actually running through the strategy and going, okay, which of these ideas are actually legitimate and helpful, and then executing and taking action on those ideas. So there's a balance there. It's not just, I got this vision with ayahuasca, and I'm going to go do this thing. Oh, I got this vision. Let's actually look at it from an analytical perspective as well and decide what's the best way to move forward. It's like you said, the download, the intuitive download that you get. And from there, if it's going to work or not. And a lot of scientists in the past, a lot of things that we enjoy today were done in a similar manner. There's someone that intuitively picked up some information, then they analyzed it to see if it's going to be a good run with it or not. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so there's increased interest in psychedelics nowadays. What about the ethical side of things? Do you have anything that you could share for anybody entering this space that they need to keep in mind? Yeah, so safety is paramount when it comes to, especially working with higher doses of psychedelics, because when we drink something like ayahuasca or work with ketamine or take psilocybin mushrooms, we tend to be in a much more vulnerable state. And that's part of the healing or transformative opportunity with psychedelics is a lot of entrepreneurs were always go, type A, get ---- done, make ---- happen. And I think there's benefit in learning also how to surrender and let go and release when it's appropriate. And so if that's the case, then it's really critical that for anyone who is interested in potentially working with psychedelics, that first of all, I would say start low and go slow is my mantra. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, you don't need to jump in the deep end right away necessarily. You can start with microdosing, you can start with taking lower doses of psychedelics, see how that feels and wade your way in from there. And that's how a lot of people start is with microdosing. Now, if someone is interested in a higher dose, my recommendation is to always work with a trusted provider. And what that means is whether it's a coach, a therapist, a guide, a shaman, a retreat center, a clinic, you really want to do a level of diligence in terms of who are these people, what are their qualifications, how much experience do they have in guiding people through psychedelic experiences, and just ask them questions. Ask them questions about how are they assessing people who come in? What intake forms do they have? How are they preparing clients before they go through a psychedelic experience? When we actually have the experience, what's the facilitation like? Is there someone who's present? Is there support that's required? And then the big thing is integration because after we get opened up in a massive way through these psychedelic experiences, we then have to ask, okay, how do I integrate this back into my everyday life? And so those I think are the four, for anyone who's listening, those are really the four key elements. Making sure that if you work with someone, there's an assessment process, they prepare you, the space is really well held when you're actually working with a psychedelic, meaning you have support, you have guidance, and then they support you with integration. And this I think is a really big challenge to solve for, and so it's why at Third Wave, we have a vetted list of providers, clinics, retreats, therapists, coaches. So if someone is listening to this and they're like, I'm not sure where to start, my recommendation is always go to Third Wave. We have educational guides and resources, we have a podcast, and we also have a directory of providers that we've vetted that they're trustworthy. And that I think is really important because there can be some... I've heard stories of people who go down to the Amazon and drink ayahuasca, and they're with someone who's not necessarily all that ethical, and these experiences can be sometimes difficult and challenging. And so you want to make sure that you are well supported if you decide to move forward with working with psychedelics. Paul, on top of the recommendations, you also provide these type of get-togethers, coaching sessions. Yeah, so part of what we've rolled out in the last couple of years is I noticed that there were a lot of people who were training therapists and psychiatrists and psychologists, licensed clinicians, which is important because psychedelics are really a breakthrough in mental health treatment. But no one was training executive coaches, holistic health coaches, life and relationship coaches. So we've rolled out a training program for coaches and, okay, how do I work with... If I have a client who comes to me and I'm an executive coach, how do I know how to navigate the psychedelic space with them? And so we've trained about 200 coaches so far in our methodology, and then our best coaches we offer to the general public. So if there are any entrepreneurs who are listening to this who are like, I'm not sure where to start, we actually have a one-to-one coaching program where we guide you through a 90-day experience, we prepare you, we support you when you go through the experience itself, and then we help you integrate afterwards. And that one-to-one coaching support can be really helpful because a lot of entrepreneurs are not necessarily interested in healing addictions or depression. They're interested in, like we talked about already, the spiritual awakening or the creativity or better communication or just better living in general. More ideas. So we've trained more ideas, right? More innovative. So we've trained a lot of coaches in terms of how to do that. And that's our one-to-one coaching program. It's called personalized psychedelic coaching. Cool. So Paul, do they have to leave the country to go somewhere where it's allowed as part of the package? They could go to Oregon, right? So Oregon has legal psilocybin mushrooms. In Canada, it's legal in most of the provinces now. So if someone is listening and they're in Canada, they could do that. If they're in Europe, they can go to the Netherlands. But right now in the United States, Oregon and Colorado both offer this. And then a lot of people will, as part of our program, we do some things like in your own home, so to say. And so a lot of people are actually, they're growing their own mushrooms or they're sourcing their own substances. And as long as they have a sitter, a guide who is there present with them, people don't necessarily have to travel to Mexico or Costa Rica or the Amazon to do this. There's more and more opportunities to do it in the safety of your own home. That's wonderful. It was great talking to you, Paul. This is great information. I'm sure it's going to add value in the marketplace. There's definitely becoming more mainstream in the entrepreneurship world because people are hearing some incredible stories of transformations. So I'm grateful for you to come on the show and share this knowledge. Thank you, Shahid. Thank you for creating the platform and your willingness to amplify what we're talking about with psychedelics. Like I said, if folks want to learn more, thethirdwave.co. That's a great starting point. And then I also wrote a book called Mastering Microdosing that can be found on Amazon if folks want to find out more about microdosing. Perfect. Thank you, Paul. Keep in touch. Thank you, Shahid.