The Hidden Cost of Your ‘Free’ Phone

The telco sells 70% of the devices that they sell. They actually just go through the big major three players. They rely on these guys as their acquisition channels for these customers. And those three year life cycles, that device payment plan that you have is how they force that upgrade so that they can come out every year and tell you it's the latest, greatest, bestest phone to text your mom on. And too many Americans fall for it. It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast, one of my favorite people in business, and you will see why the GM of Back Market USA, Lauren Benton. Welcome, Lauren. Thank you very much, Andrew. It's wonderful to be here with you. Full disclosure, Back Market and Noble Mobile are teaming up to try and free you from big wireless, and we'll talk a lot about that. But you have four people watching this. You have a sweatshirt on that says Fix Me. Yeah, and you don't seem like you need fixing. So you know what? I think everybody needs a little bit of something, and I can't tell you how much this gets commented on. Like I'm checking out for a salad and somebody will open up about how this resonates. But for us, Back Market, we're all about refurbished tech. We're going to speak about this, right? It's about fixing thing. It's about our right to repair. I'll speak about that movement as well. But so this challenge here is not to go out and buy something new. Let's fix what we already have. Let's do more with what we already have. Well, that sounds almost spiritual. And I've learned a ton from hanging out with you and your colleagues. So we were joking before the cameras started rolling about how you didn't have like a natural journey to Back Market. And I'm going to characterize it as a movement because it genuinely is when you when you get into it. And I was joking about how I was a very customary consumer where I so I have an iPhone. I was a Verizon customer for 25 years, and a lot of people know that. And what I would do is I would show up every few years and get a new phone. And then the new phone would be free. And and I'd be like, OK, I guess I'm somehow getting a value here. But the cost would be spread out over a contract that I would typically up for. Let's call it two years. I actually like kind of fuzzy on how long the thing was. Yeah, right. Switch to three years, three years ago. So that timeline pretty much aligns. It used to be a two year contract. It's three now. OK. And then my and my sorry, my monthly payment to Verizon was 140 a month. And then my quote unquote free phone sort of is like was in there. And by the way, I'm sharing this, too, because this is very normal. And like most people have no idea how much that phone truly cost them. No, we have we have no idea, right, because everything's kind of bundled and hazy within there. So same thing until I worked at Back Market. I joined the company six years ago. I had no idea that I was a hamster wheel on a marketing acquisition like funnel, you know, that these devices are marketing weapons from the large telcos to acquire us. And so you're completely right. One hundred and forty bucks is an average of what these consumers are paying. They're overpaying for the unlimited data piece, which I know, you know, and anybody who's aware of Noble knows that conversation and they're rolling the cost of the device into that. But guys, Apple's demanding that Verizon pay them for those devices. There is no free. You mean Apple's not a trillion dollar company because they're giving their phones away? No, no, no, they're not. The telcos sell 70 percent of the devices that they sell. They actually just go through the big major three players. They rely on these guys as their acquisition channels for these customers. And those three year life cycles, that device payment plan that you have is how they force that upgrade so that they can come out every year and tell you it's the latest, greatest, bestest phone to text your mom on. And too many Americans fall for it. Yeah. And this has been one of the interesting changes over the last number of years. So check it out. A number of years ago, by the way, I'll actually go through some of my own device history because it's fun. So I had something called a BlackBerry. Oh, yeah, I was a very efficient thumb typer. And BBM, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I loved my BlackBerry so much. Don't judge me, everybody, that I actually switched to a Samsung that had a keyboard. It had one of those like that. These you turn it horizontally and flip it open. It made this very satisfying sound. It goes like clack. And then I would typey typey. And you too. Wow. So much in common. And then I switched to an iPhone. Sadly, like I was kind of resisting on some level because I'm a little bit contrarian. But my wife had an iPhone and it seemed like the standard. And so I bought an iPhone. And I did adjust, you know, like I became like a moderately satisfied Apple consumer. And during this period, new devices were coming out. This is maybe like iPhone 10, 11, 12. And there was a step function between each where it's like, oh, what is this new iPhone going to offer? But then something changed over the last number of years where now even my very tech forward, aggressive, spendy friends don't feel the need to upgrade their device because we sense on some level that there really isn't that much of a difference between the 13, 14, 15, 16 and now the 17. Right. And especially once those devices became 5G compatible, which many of us even tell the difference when we're on a 5G network. What is the real difference? I would actually argue that the 17 that recently came out, a 15 pro is a better device. We all upgrade for the camera. Right. It still has AI technology. And it's a better device if you want to be in the Apple ecosystem. Why would you go out and get the basic phone? Yeah. And by the way, this isn't just, you know, me and Lauren saying this. I mean, consumers have wised up where it used to be. And you're you can actually get the numbers even more specific, probably. But the average consumer device replacement cycle, if you rewind five years ago, was something like 18 to 24 months, something like every two years, be like, oh, I should get a new device. And then that timeline has just gotten longer and longer. It became 30 months, like 36 months, 41. And now you talk to people and I'll use myself as an example. I feel no real need to upgrade or update. Like I see the 17 ads and I just ignore them because no one can tell me what's any better, any better. And the reality is also the device still functions like new. So a lot of us were on about a three year upgrade cycle now. Right. And that behavior, it aligns with the slower progressions that we've really seen in these true tech upgrades. But it also does align with the behaviors that telcos wanted us to drive. They moved you from a two year payment plan to a three year and you're a stickier customer. So it happens both tandem together. But 70, 77% of the devices that are traded in, we have a trade in program as well. They're fully functioning. They work just fine. Customers are still upgrading when they have a device that already meets the needs, what's driving it. OK, so 77% of the devices that back market is getting because back market refurbishes devices and then resells them. And we'll talk about why this is so awesome are perfectly functional, which doesn't surprise me in that the last time I did my iPhone upgrade, my my previous iPhone worked fine and I got it is like a bigger screen. It was like, you know, like I did some things. Maybe the battery could be replaced. Yeah. One of the things I learned hanging out with you all was that there's like a very, very significant cost to getting this new device, but it's not just me spending. And so what is like the what am I spending on this device or how much is built into the contract roughly? Oh, good. Into one of those telco contracts. Yeah, you're fully paying for the device. But we spend a lot of time doing the math and trying to think about how do we break this down for customers to truly understand? You're paying twice as much. No. Yeah, you're you are paying 100% twice as much. It is all being rolled into this service plan. Right. That you feel like you have to pay for it because having phone connectivity is very important to all of us. Yeah, sure. Right. Like whether it's because of our YouTube or we want to make sure our kid is safe at daycare. I'm a very important person. Exactly. The most important. And so we're willing to pay for that. And so they've kind of got us on a hook. Right. But pull up that bill and explain to me what all the things are that you're paying for and all the perks that they roll in. I am not using any video streaming service with commercials that they are giving me for six months. Right. I travel abroad and I work for an international company only twice a year. Like so many of these things that are rolled in aren't daily needed perks. Well, we can talk about what happens when you leave the country, because on Verizon, they used to charge me ten bucks a day. And and then it was a really tender. Oh, you actually want Google Maps to work because you need to get somewhere. Well, that means you do. But they increased it, I think. So an iPhone 17, if you were just to buy it directly from Apple retails for 1200. And that's the bigger models. I think we're in the eight hundreds now for the basic ones. Oh, that's cool. So let's call it like eight, nine hundred a thousand, depending upon which one you get. Now, I totally believe that you're paying twice that if you have one of these Verizon or AT&T contracts, because the 140 a month I was paying now, I know should have been less than half that. And so if you and now I've been so mad for months and myself really knowing that I'd overpaid Verizon for 25 years. Like let's call it even conservatively 50 bucks a month. That's that's still 600 times. Twenty five would be something like fifteen thousand dollars. More because you're forgetting about the compounding interest that a general like, oh, yeah, right. So, yeah, this is the one that I like. Let's round it down. When I do the math, I can typically show somebody how they can save 60 bucks a month. They write it because you're paying 120 140. I'm saving like 90. So for you. Yeah. Pretend I'm bad at math and cut that in half to 30 bucks. Put that in the bank now. And I'm picking a long term number, but I really want you to hear this. In 50 years, it'd be eight hundred thousand dollars with average return rates. Wow. And like I know that in 50 years we won't be carrying cell phones. I'm not saying that's the answer. I'm saying like, stop right now and check the decisions you are making in your life because the amount of money that you could be saving and just put that aside is life changing. Wow. That's so uplifting. It's it is. And it's also so infuriating. It's infuriating. Read these Reddit chains of people that are frugal. Like, how can I save? These are my bills and your mobile plan costs more than some of your health care bills on a monthly basis. This is insane. Thank you, listeners, please make sure to like and subscribe. And if you have any questions, send them to mailbag at Andrew Yang dot com. And we'll do our best to answer them. Thank you. This podcast is sponsored by Helix Sleep. I have been a proud, happy Helix Sleep customer for years now because my mattress just keeps on giving. I've always been someone who thought, you know what? You should invest in a proper mattress because you're on your back or your belly or your side for eight hours a night. So I ordered an Ultra Dawn firm mattress, and it has been a game changer. I've had it for, gosh, now years. And I'm telling you, total transformation. Go to Helix Sleep dot com slash Yang for 25 percent off site wide. That's Helix Sleep dot com slash Yang for 25 percent off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout. So they know we sent you Helix Sleep dot com slash Yang. It's it's very energizing because, you know, you're right that the 15000 I've overspent over this period is conservative because I would have done something with it. It would have gotten interest. It would have compounded like et cetera, et cetera. Bought yourself more joy. Yes. You know, I mean, totally. I could have gotten that car I wanted. So it would have been a used car, by the way. So why would we all buy a used car and we're not buying refurbished devices? But we'll come back to that. Yeah. So there's this cost of thousands of dollars that's baked into when I get this device. But one thing I learned from you all is there's also an environmental cost where it turns out that getting one of these devices, it doesn't magically appear with all of its, you know, glass and and all of the chips and everything else in the supply chain that they're actually human being somewhere who are mining the materials and getting it together. And that the cost is much more substantial than I think most consumers realize. Now, the human impact, if you ever read like Cobalt Red, when they talk about the mining practices of getting all of the minerals that we need to put into these devices, it's horrific. But for the environment, yeah, 90 percent of the carbon emissions of that smartphone that you're carrying in your pocket happen in the original manufacturing. Right. 10 percent of it is your use is charging it and the Internet that you're using afterwards. So it's this sunk cost. Yeah. So back market, we're about doing more with what we already have, the fixing the things that we have now. Let me put that in perspective. If every American next year decided to forego the update to the life changing 18, that's going to be coming out. Right. It would be equivalent to taking two point five million cars off the road for an entire year. Wow. Like we don't fully understand the impact of our tech. We talk about fast fashion and there's so many other things that are becoming more environmentally conscious about. But e-waste, it's the fastest growing form of waste that we have. Think about it. Like 20 years ago, how many people had all these electronics plugged in? And now there's chips in your microwave and inside your toaster that make them obsolete and trash. And it's the most poisonous trash that throws it into our landfills. It's something that is overlooked by I'm sure like the vast, vast majority of consumers. And what you said rings true where it's like, look, by the time it gets to me, 90 percent of the bad has been done. Bad has been done. Right. And it's been done in Asia or Latin America or Africa. Totally. In this other place. And then there are also landfills. Yeah. That are and some of the materials don't like aren't super easy to dispose of. No, no. So we say like, oh, but but I'm going to recycle it. I'm going to recycle it. Like that is a cop out. That is the last R in the circular economy that you should care about. Globally, 20 percent of electronics are actually responsibly recycled. The rare earth minerals that we all talk about, right, that are just they're very difficult to actually mine and they're very difficult to actually recycle. One percent of them are actually recycled. Seven percent of the world's gold is sitting in the trash in our e-waste. Like the recycling is not the answer. And there was a mini docu film that back market. I'm not sure if it's watchable, but you came to our event with I fix it and got to watch it on our YouTube channel. Yeah. So if you see it, you can actually see some of these physical sites. And that was an eye opener. I was like, holy crap, because most of us don't think about what what goes into it or what comes out. And the other massive learning I had. So you have this fix me sweatshirt on your everyone watching. At least I would be like, well, it's obvious that if I have a device, I can repair it, I should repair it. But then there are some industries where you're not allowed to repair stuff because of some proprietary nature and also because some of the companies would much rather that you buy a new one than that you fix your current one. And I thought that was messed up when I heard that. I was like, what? And there's even like a right to repair movement. I was like, why the hell would you need a movement for right to repair something you owed? Like, that doesn't make any sense. I thought that I just paid you two times the value that I needed to telco to own this device, to then find out that I'm actually leasing it from the manufacturer because they're allowed to do so many practices that block us from repair. And I'm going to speak to that. But this is not just your smartphone. Like, let me open your eyes to individuals in wheelchairs are prevented from repairing their wheelchairs. Farmers can't fix their John Deere. That's what I thought of. It's like the John Deere tractor. McDonald's can't fix their McFlurry machine. I had to eat chicken nuggets the other day instead of getting a McFlurry when I pulled over on a road trip because they aren't allowed to, because these organizations can put locks on devices that prevent you from doing the diagnostics that you need to know what's broken. And then they can prevent you from having the tools, the repair manuals that you need to actually drive those repairs. So if you think about it, when you say like, I need a battery replacement for a lot of Americans, like my phone is dying, but it's not that easy to find a local repair person that's going to be driving that business for me because we started to staunch those businesses preventing right to repair. So only six states in America right now actually protect that right for consumer electronics. Proud to say New York was the first one. And we do. But yes, so I talk about a movement across so many things. We bought it. We should have the right to repair it. I'm not much of a cook. I enjoy getting my meals. It takes a lot of consideration, and I don't like to think very much. There are a number of things I don't like to do. And when you get a factor meal, you know it's going to be tasty, healthy factors. Chef crafted dietitian approved meals are ready to eat. Just heat them up in a few minutes and you will be eating fresh, healthy food in no time. My favorite is the horseradish encrusted chicken. And I have to say, like you can tell the meals are healthy even as they taste great. You know that sweet spot. That's what these meals hit. Get started at factor meals dot com slash Yang 50 off and use code Yang 50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code Yang 50 off at factor meals dot com slash Yang 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping. Factor meals dot com slash Yang 50 off. So there are hidden costs to business as usual. And when I have my iPhone, if I go, oh, like I'm smart, I have, you know, like Verizon, that means I get to upgrade and they'll take my old one and all this stuff. And really, I'm paying for it many times over. I'm paying Verizon enough money so that they can fund this 11 billion dollar a year dividend, which if you think about it, it's like, where does that money come from? It strikes me a little bit like going to Vegas and you see the casinos like where they get the money to build these casinos. It's like, well, I had to come from somewhere. Speaking of somebody who's lived in Vegas twice and died in the casinos. Like, yeah, man, they're going to win. Yeah. Yeah. So so the Verizon and what's funny, too, is that if you look at huge American corporations, people have soured on the cable companies because they want to pay for all these channels that you're not using, that you're not using, which is, you know, quite analogous to data. People have soured on big pharma. Sure. It's like, yeah, you should be able to make money. But like, you know, some of the stuff seems kind of egregious. And they haven't yet figured out that big wireless is hovering over the whole thing, siphoning off an extra, you know, conservatively like 30 to 40 billion dollars that you can very easily discern. And when you go abroad, they're charging you 10, 12 bucks a day, even though it's costing them two bucks a day. Like the whole thing is that there's a lot of very, very strange stuff on the monetary level. And then there is the environmental level. And then there's this kind of basic human principle of like, hey, let me make my stuff last. Like, let me take care of things, maybe take care of my devices, my bank account, the planet. And so all of this stuff then is baked into a consumer mindset shift where it's not necessarily I need the new one. It could be that I get someone else's former device, which will work just about as good as new in like the vast, vast majority of cases and costs like and also it costs the earth nothing is the only thing I made. I mean, maybe across the 10 percent. Yeah. I'd like that. Yeah, yeah. And then you can save yourself huge gobs of money because all of a sudden you can get the device, let's say, on back market and you can go to backmarket.com and peruse not just cell phones which we're focused on, but like MacBooks, like laptops, whatever the heck you can think of. I didn't know about the espresso maker. And get a device so you could, in theory, get like, let's call it, I think I'm on an iPhone 14 or something like that. Like what is an iPhone 14 on back market approximately? I don't know. That's like. Let's go five hundred bucks, depending on the grade that you're going to want, the storage, everything like that. That's OK. Like a really cool one might be five hundred dollars. And then you could get your data from some place like Noble, which would cost you, let's call it, forty two bucks a month. And you're like a fairly typical user. And then all of a sudden, your monthly burn is like a fraction, probably about half of what you're paying now. So you can see that these big companies, shocker, are doing things that are good for them, maybe not so good for us, maybe not so great for the environment. That's exactly it. So and then that is what back market is doing. And so we talk about that. We are where the world buys the refurbished tech. I call out the world because we operate in 18 different markets and 16 of those other markets make it illegal for telcos to lock devices to their services so that you're kind of in like that hamster wheel. That's very funny. So wait, wait, let me let me get that again. There are 18 countries that you guys operate in and 16 of them say, hey, it's against the law for you to have a device that can't be ported across networks. The UK, you can't do it. So when you talk about those telco plans in Europe that, you know, 10 to 15 bucks a month, it's because the services are actually competing on the services. It's not about marketing dollars they can spend and the bundles that they can create of you cannot just get an Apple device. You get a watch and a tablet and all those things around the holidays that I'm just going to roll into my marketing bucks, you know, and keep you on the hamster wheel. It's really about the cost and the value of the service. And when you pull that kind of wool away from our eyes, that price starts to drop pretty dramatically. Yeah, I mean, Europeans, Australians are paying 40 to 45 bucks a month for their their data unlimited, you know, the whole nine. We're paying 83 on average. I was paying, obviously, a lot more than that. And it sounds like you might have. And so that's it. We're a French founded organization. Right. And so this was something they already knew. They already had broken away from these long term contracts with telcos. And we brought that here to the U.S. And it's a story that we're having to educate U.S. consumers on is what is refurbished tech, the quality that you can get and why bringing your own device to a mobile plan really frees you? Yes. I love it so much. Like you have an unlocked device, you join a network like Noble. And then let's say, by the way, Noble, no contracts like, you know, if it's not working out for you to switch, like, well, you know, shake your hand and wish you well, make it a breeze. And most people don't realize that every device manufactured from 2018 on has an eSIM and you can just point it to one network or another. Exactly. Well, when we met, I told you I used my second eSIM and I registered for Noble and I was comparing you against my current plan. And I told you, I was like, I was watching it on the bars, on the subway. I live in Jersey City. Like if I'm a high rise in New York, how is everything? And so I love that about these devices. Switch now or test it out. See it for yourself. So savvy. I remember when Lauren had it and she was toggling between her two services. And I'm thrilled to say that Noble graded out favorably. Right. It was the it's the same. It's the same. By the way, that was like the biggest revelation for me. And I'm like the freaking founder of Noble. But when I switched from Verizon to Noble, even I was like, is everything going to be the same? And then when I realized it was the same over that day, I got so angry. What was I doing? Like I consider myself savvy and fairly cost efficient. And then knowing that I had overspent five figures over the previous years. Yes. Was maddening. But now, especially in an era when Americans are looking for ways to save, you're talking about the people who are scrimping in every dimension and then they're looking around and they just assume that whatever they're paying AT&T or Verizon, it's like a law of gravity. It's like, oh, I'm just supposed to pay them 85 bucks or whatever it is. You got it. And so let me share this story. Back Market, we're an online marketplace, you know, with an app as well. But right now in New York, we actually have a temporary store running down in Soho. So fun. And the team went there to help open it up. Yes, we loved having them. But so for anybody listening, we're open through the end of the year for 49 Broadway. Come down and see us. But we had a customer come in the other day and she had just gotten a 17 device and it was buyer's remorse. She's like, this isn't like any better. I'd had a 14 before she came in. She's like, I mean, I traded it into them like, help me go back. Can you help me to undo like what was just done? And now Apple only has a two week return policy on it. And yeah, so she's like, I mean, had it for a week. Like, I got to I got to move on on this right now. And so it was just so wonderful to see Back Market. If you're in New York, you've seen some of our subway ads. We're all about the downgrading now. It is that idea that truly I don't think it's a downgrade. As I was mentioning with the 15 pro, it's a better same freaking device. I mean, I'm on a 14 and I have no desire to. It's the anti upgrade is what are we challenging you to? It's an upgrade of a different kind. It's an upgrade of like consciousness and value and values. You know what I mean? It's a it's a real movement of you are saying fix me. It is this decision that you can feel so proud of. Get out the screwdriver and like fix the door handle that was wiggling the other day, like that empowerment that you get from taking control versus, as I said, just kind of being in this marketing tunnel. And I felt that way switching off of Verizon, where there was a little bit of anxiety or trepidation and then relief and then exhilaration. Like I genuinely felt I had a spring in my step because it's like, oh, I made that change. And and now life is better. It's like anything else I can change. Anything else I'm taking for granted, like for too long. But that's it. It kind of also creates this like, hey, here's my life hack tip. Word of mouth where you want to actually tell your peers and empower everybody else to make smarter decisions, too. This podcast is sponsored by ExpressVPN. How did you choose which Internet service provider to use? The sad thing is most of us didn't have much of a choice because ISPs operate a lot like monopolies in the regions that they serve. They then use this monopoly position to take advantage of customers. And yes, they even sell your data, your activities to advertisers and big tech companies. And you don't see a dime. That's why I protect my Internet surfing and devices with ExpressVPN. When you use ExpressVPN, it's like a magic portal to a perfectly safe and anonymous Internet. And don't take my word for it. This is the number one VPN service, according to CNET. It's used by major companies all over the world. So stop handing over your personal data to ISPs and other tech companies to then mine your activity and sell off your information. Protect yourself with a VPN. I trust to keep my privacy online. Visit ExpressVPN.com slash yang. That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S VPN.com slash yang to get three extra months free. Go to ExpressVPN.com slash yang right now to learn more. Just to review quickly, you said there were there were 18 countries, 16 of them. It's illegal to have a locked phone. So it's the U.S. and who else? Japan still does a lot of carrier locks. So we're across all of Europe within the EU. I was just curious who else is joining the U.S. in our infinite wisdom. Telco world is pretty similar in Japan as well around how customer behavior runs. Right. 70% of the devices are moving through these stores. Like we are part of that story. That's that's fascinating. You know, I'm not sure who I would have guessed or it was like us in locked device world, which is obviously not where you want to be. And this is something I think we really could take a page from Europe. I mean, Europe's ahead of us in many things, you know, maybe health care. Yeah. So the FCC actually did a call for comments last year about this. And some of the telcos, they have different rules. Some people can lock you for 60 days and people can lock you for longer. But you're locked. Any friction that this creates creates a fear with the consumer around. Can I move these devices over? And that's why these payment plans are just so brutal. Customers don't really understand what they're signing up for, right? Like you go in. These are good salespeople inside of these stores. And 60% of us buy it in store. Yeah. So we got a salesman who's like pitching us on and giving us all the add ons and upgrading these plans. Like that's what I love about. No, guys, there's an app for that. Like this is not a crazy, hard thing. Right. Like everything can be done on the Web. Yes. Easily. You could easily buy a device from back market connected to Noble. Be off and running. Yeah. Still have your phone number. Yeah. Your web. It's flawless in the registration. Like this guides you through it. It took me a couple of minutes to stop. Like, yeah, we were very proud of that, that element. And if you are a noble subscriber, there is a cool discount to back market. You decide to buy a device and we're going to be doing more fun things together. But I'd urge anyone who is in the market for any device, apparently even an espresso maker, check out back market first before you wind up like that person who walked into their store. It's like, oh, no, I did something that probably cost me in that case, maybe three times as much. Andrew, please. So every day, half the customers that check out on us are buying a refurbished device for the first time. They're testing it out. We're really, really proud of that. The movement that we're starting to drive and so much of it comes along with partners that are helping them to break out of this mindset. So thank you. But for those customers, it's a 30 day return policy. No questions asked. That's what I'm talking about. Look, if it's not working for you, just send it on back. No risk, no risk, no foul. You really did feel that you need the 17 after testing out that 15 pro guys. Again, I am telling you, it's a better device. Send it back. It's a one year warranty. If you have a problem with it later, we are that confident in the quality that we're going to sell. Again, we will take those devices back. And I have spent time with Lauren and her team and even some of the folks from Europe. And they're actual human beings who are running an actual company that has values and a mission. And trust me when I say if the device doesn't make you delighted, just send it on back to them. They'll give it back to you. And then, you know, like, but it's going to make your life better because you're going to have this whole universe of options that opens up to you on value and impact. And you're going to feel better about it. One hundred percent. It's this other way into the circular economy. Like we all have to realize there are planetary limits to what we can take from this place and what we can be leaving behind. Right. And some of these upgrades are not serving us at all. No. You know, I mean, part of what like the last number of months is has been new isn't always better and like, you know, faster might not be good for your brain and like a bunch of other things. So I have to quickly say that I talked about the, you know, the coffee makers earlier, like the retro tech. So in this store, we sell the original Game Boys and the old Nintendo systems and the TI-89 calculators that I still don't know how to use for math class. But we all had to buy one. It was so weird. And then somebody resold theirs, which was a very circular thing of them to do. And it's available again on back market. That was the best lobbying effort ever by TI. Congratulations, TI. Making every kid have to own one of your freaking graphing calculator just so we could do that one freaking function that one time. Play Snake. Yeah. But that that step back to I don't know that we're going into a better place. Like it was fun to hold a real camera. You know, to put my phone down and capture those moments, to take it to one of your upcoming parties. I can bring my real camera in, right? Yeah, I put my phone away, but like I can bring my digital camera in. And all of that's available on back market. It's a much healthier relationship with our tech. Yes. Amen. I'm so glad that we came together before Noble launched. I learned a lot, obviously. I'm sure anyone who is listening to this also learned a lot. Definitely go to backmarket.com. And if someone wants to keep up with you personally, Lauren, I don't know how, you know, like out there. By the way, you're an ACES spokesperson. So you definitely should be front and center. But is there an easy way for people to keep up with you individually? Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn at Lauren Benton is my name, but I'm Lauren, L-A-U-R-E-N dot Benton, B-E-N-T-O-N at backmarket.com. Wow. Look at that. See, that's what I'm talking about. Real people, real company. The GM of the USA just gave you her email address. So, you know, if you buy a device and you don't like it, you can just ping her. Yeah. Honestly, when customers do, we handle those immediately. I'm in the back office to understand the issue because it's a learning opportunity for me, too, to really understand. Was this a policy, a defective device? Like, what can we make better? The reality is you're just going to keep the device and be happy, honestly. But like but having her email just makes you feel better. That's a literally this is our business. Like I don't curate your socks and everything else as well. We are dedicated to refurbished tech and we want to get this right, because if we sell you a lemon, like you're not going to test us or trust somebody else. Our larger mission is to get you adopt circular tech. If I don't deliver on the quality, I just hurt my business. And I also hurt this planet that we are on. Well, you guys are doing tremendous work. And everyone I know who's used you has been very happy and almost thrilled to be partnered with you. But let's break people free, really. Love it. Love it. Thank you, Lauren Benton, Backmarket, Backmarket.com. And do check them out. Really, you're going to love them. Awesome.