In Conversation with GM CEO Mary Barra

Good morning, everyone. Mary Barra has been CEO of General Motors for 10 years and is a very important figure in America, far beyond the auto industry and business. She's one of the longest serving CEOs of a big U.S. American company. And yes, as a woman leader, she has broken through many, many glass ceilings along the way. Mary's known for making tough decisions and standing up to pressure, whether that be from leaders including Donald Trump, Elon Musk, or Gretchen Whitmer. And her biggest bet is to transform GM entirely to an all-electric vehicle company by 2035. The stakes are ginormous, not only for GM, but also for Michigan and the politically important Midwest. I'm originally from Michigan. I cover General Motors for the Wall Street Journal, so I admit to having a passing interest here. But I'm so excited to talk to Mary about leadership, change, and your bet on electric vehicles. So thank you so much for making the trip. Well, Rebecca, it's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's great to be here. And at General Motors, we're in an industry that's going through a massive transformation, whether it's EVs, autonomous vehicles, and the fact that the vehicle is a communications platform. So there's so much going on, so I'm looking forward to it. Great. Well, I want to just start at the beginning. You actually have worked at GM your entire life, and then some, because you worked your way through college on the plant floor where you inspected, I believe, hoods and fenders. You helped pay your way through college by working at General Motors and went to college at Kettering Institute to be an engineer. How does that shape your view as a leader, being someone who has literally never worked anywhere else other than GM? Well, I did work at Felice Quality Market, where quality is their middle name in high school. I was the snack bar person. Important point. Yes. But no, since I was 18 years old, I've worked at General Motors, and working in the co-op program, it allowed me to pay for college, because my dad was a die maker at GM and had retired the year before I started. So GM has a rich history in my family. But I think understanding what it means to work on an assembly line and understanding the hard work that all of the men and women of our manufacturing team do, I think it's been a fundamental benefit. And understanding how it works, right from the line all the way up to all the other areas in the business, it really helps you, especially when you're in transformation. So I consider it just one of the most important things I did was to have worked on the line and started there. Do you ever worry that it makes you a little too insular in thinking? I mean, we're always as leaders looking for the fresh thought. And if you've just been there so long, does that make you vulnerable to that? I think you have to make sure that you are constantly looking outside. I mean, I think in the 80s and 90s, I think that was a big part of General Motors' issue. They were too insular. But I have made sure it's actually a priority for me that we have a very diverse leadership team, and not just diverse from gender, race, but also from different experiences, different industries, and different backgrounds. So I think that's what helps us make sure that we're not just listening to ourselves. But frankly, I think what's most important is we listen to the customer. And we try to drive that we don't win until the customer says we win. And that focus, I think, is the most important. You were promoted quickly along the way. You told me once a story of your first big promotion after graduating college, not really working that long as an engineer. And you were suddenly promoted to plant manager. And you remarked along the way that a lot of people helped you, particularly men who had worked on the line. Yeah. Can you share that story? Absolutely. So I had started in the plant. And then actually, when I hired in full time, I worked as a controls engineer and then was a maintenance supervisor. And then 11 years passed in my career, and I had the opportunity to become the plant manager of Detroit Hamtramck, which is now what we call Factory Zero, where we're building EV trucks, the Hummer and the Silverado, as well as the Cruise Origin. And so when I got to the plant, I had been out of the plant for a long time. And I worked with my assistant plant manager, was this fabulous individual who had worked his whole career in the plant. And he said to me, Mary, first I'm going to teach you my job as the assistant plant manager, and then I'm going to teach you yours. And if I hadn't worked with someone who was willing to help me understand managing the plant at that level, much different than when I was a maintenance supervisor earlier in my career, I don't think I'd be where I am today. And I think it's just one example of people who, I think if you work and you're honest about what you know and what you don't know, and you respect every job, because it takes every job at General Motors to do what we do, I think that allows you to build those types of relationships where people want to help you. And who doesn't like sharing and being proud of what they do? So that was a pretty pivotal assignment. And again, I owe Steve Byrne a lot of thanks. When did you decide you wanted to be CEO? My sense is that you didn't exactly follow a straight path, and you actually said no to a couple of pivotal assignments along the way. Yeah, I made some decisions where I did say no, mainly because of my family and my parents. My parents are no longer with us, and they were quite elderly. And I knew if I moved away, I likely might not ever get to spend that time with them. I actually was right about that. So I have made decisions based on what I think is best for my family in the long term. But I think that when you look at your whole career and the assignments that you had, I frankly didn't think about CEO until I was literally told I was being considered. And I was like, oh, you know, it's one of those things like, OK. I mean, I was very senior at the time. I was actually running product development, which I think is one of the best jobs in General Motors. Think about it. You spend your days either at design, looking at new vehicles, at the Milford Proving Ground, driving our vehicles, driving competitive vehicles. And it's really the energy of the company. But when I was told I was being considered, of course, I was interested. But it was a very short period of time from when I realized I was being considered to when I was in the job. So you started as CEO in 2014, a few years after GM experienced a near-death experience and had to be bailed out by taxpayers. What did you find? I mean, GM was at the time just famous for layers of bureaucracy. Well, you know, having been there, I knew where we were at our best, and I knew where we had challenges. And it was one of the things that when I got this position, I knew absolutely we had to make sure we had an aligned leadership team. And you think about it. If any company, if your top 12 to 15 people aren't aligned, running any business is hard enough, but you have to have that alignment. And I think when I look back to some of the struggles that General Motors had is because we didn't have that alignment and we didn't have the right accountability and empowerment. And so that's been something I've been working on even before I was in this role. Because right as we came out of the restructuring, I was actually running human resources and, you know, working on cultural issues and how do we really change the culture to drive more accountability. And so that's been kind of something. And I also believe you've got to engage people, you've got to engage their hearts and minds to really win. You know, every single person is part of the company. And so that's kind of how I believe any company can win and what I try to work on every day. So you're overseeing just seismic changes. You're literally phasing out internal combustion engines. As a leader, what's your philosophy? How do you not rest too much on tradition that's made GM excellent, but also just being a change agent? How do you balance that and resist the pressure to just kind of keep with things as they've been? You know, I think there's so much changing right now. I mean, and I believe we have the right strategy when people say what keeps me up at night is are we moving fast enough? And so I think when you're looking to move fast, when you can leverage technology in almost any part of the business, you just have to keep driving that change. And one of the things people don't realize about General Motors, just because of our demographics, about, I would say, almost 40 percent, maybe higher, of our engineering, our technical talent has been with the company less than five years. And that's because of just normal attrition. And as we did that, we shifted from more of a hardware focus to a software focus. And, you know, that really gives you a lot of energy, because most of those individuals who have joined the company are new college grads. And it's not like when I started at General Motors in, you know, 1980 as a student. I mean, I get emails. I probably get two to three emails a week from someone who's maybe been at the company one or two years and has an idea for me. I make sure I or the person who has expertise responds to each one of their ideas, because good ideas can come from anywhere. But I think that has really changed the company with a lot of new talent coming to the company at all levels, but especially at the entry level. And you just made a prominent hire from Apple, you were telling me backstage. Yes. Yeah, we just hired Mike Abbott, who just most recently was at Apple. And he is running, we put all the software together, because software is so, you know, we really have to become a software first company with what the vehicle can do. And so he's, you know, just been here about a month now and is already driving really positive change. And I think that's an example, too, of bringing people outside resources, especially in areas and industries that maybe have done something before it's become the mission critical in the automotive industry. So take us inside a little bit this moment. I believe it was in 2021 when you just decided I'm making, I'm betting everything on electric, getting rid of internal combustion. I believe it was before a lot of the other American automakers did. And did you just feel that you needed to do something that dramatic to, in a sense, catch up to Elon Musk and hold your own? Well, I think when we looked at what was happening in the industry, and one of the reasons we did that was primarily driven from internal, because at GM, we had said we believe in an all electric future, but there was a lot of internal debate of when. And so when we looked at our plans, and we looked at the regulatory environment and realized, you know, we thought the right thing to do was to get our entire portfolio from a light duty perspective to be all electric by 2035, that was a big statement. But when we did it, we mainly did it because we needed to get everybody internally in the company stop debating when and start working on how to make sure we get it done. And so it was a very important announcement because it stopped the debate. And that's one of the reasons we did it. I think we're still the only full line manufacturer that has made that commitment. None of our other, I'll say the traditionals, or those, you know, obviously, those that are started as an all EV company don't need to do that. But we're still the only full line manufacturer with all our brands that have made that commitment. So the rap against Elon Musk for a while was that he couldn't produce at volume. And last year, you produced 39,000 electric vehicles, if my figures are correct, and he produced 1.4 million. What's taking so long? It seems like those numbers would have been higher for you by now. Yeah, I would say one of the things when in the 18, 19 timeframe, because we had already done the Volt, and then the Bolt, and the Bolt, the Chevrolet Bolt is a is our second generation, but it was an internal combustion engine vehicle that was modified to become electric. And when you do that, you have to make a lot of trade offs with range with performance, because the vehicle wasn't designed to have a foundation of the battery pack. And so in the 18 timeframe, we said, if we really want to convert and believe we're going to be an all EV company, we've got to do a dedicated platform. And so that we started working on an 18, we launched in late 21 December, I think it was probably one of the last days in December of 21. The first vehicle off the Ultium platform, which was the Hummer. And so now we've been ramping that up. What's held us off right now is getting our battery plants running. We have a battery plant that is now running really well in Ohio, we have another one in construction in Spring Hill, Tennessee, we have a third in Michigan, and then we just announced about a week ago, that our fourth will be in Indiana. And so getting those cells ramped up, and actually, that that is constraining our Ultium platform vehicles, which is all of our, our future vehicles like the Silverado EV, both the Hummer truck and Hummer SUV, the Equinox EV and the Blazer EV that come out this year, the Cadillac Lyric, we're ramping and, you know, we're, we have some growing pains, because it's not only once you make the battery cell, then you got to put it in modules, and you got to make the pack for a car. It's all new manufacturing, we're working with different suppliers. You know, there's, I'd say there's suppliers right now that I have more people in than they probably they do to get them up and running. But, you know, as we break the roadblocks and learn, you know, well, we feel we're on track for what we've said we've achieved this year, on our way to 400,000 units by the middle of next year, and a million in 2025. So do you think, and you'll be catching up to Elon soon, and then vis-a-vis Ford and the Chinese are coming, I do you still, do you still think that you're going to be able to maintain a leadership? I definitely, you know, we sell more vehicles in the United States than anyone else. We have done that for years, well, you know, I think, decades, aside from one blip during the semiconductor shortage. And we have the highest customer loyalty across all of our brands. Just last week, as a manufacturer, we have the highest quality. And we know customers. If you think about it, I'm sure many of you own electric vehicles today. But I, and I ask, how many people own an electric vehicle in the crowd? How many people only own an electric vehicle? Just a couple of you. And to get 30, 40, 50 percent of the population buying new vehicles, you've got to make sure that it is something that solves their every need. And you're reaching customers who, you know, the average price they spend on a new car is between $30,000 and $35,000. It's their only vehicle. If there's two cars in the household, they need both of them to go to work. And, you know, they need to know they're going to have a reliable charging, that they're going to have reliable service. And so, you know, we're working hard to build that. But those customers we know really well. And so, when you think about EVs, you know, I think last year, less than 10 percent penetration. You know, quickly, we have made the commitment to be at 50 percent by 2030. You've got to reach those customers. I think our brand strength, our loyalty, the loyalty and the quality that we have, we're on track to do it. And also, we're going to have a portfolio of vehicles. We're not replicating our internal combustion engine portfolio, but we're really being strategic about having affordable vehicles, having luxury vehicles. We have a truck franchise right now. We sell more trucks in this country than anyone else, making sure we maintain that with the Silverado EV, the Hummer, as well as the GMC Sierra EV. So, you know, with the vehicles we have now, with what we'll have a year from right now, it will be dramatically different. Okay. So, you've set me up. I am a Bolt driver, and you're discontinuing the Bolt. And a lot of people care, especially who drives the Bolt, there's been a lot of buzz about the Bolt. And it feels like you're there and then, well, getting some fans and then you're making a big change. You know, I think you're absolutely right. There's tremendous equity and loyalty to the Chevrolet Bolt EV. And it is built off of our, today, off of our second generation technology, but it's a very important vehicle in our portfolio. So, you know, people have to wait and see what we end up doing. Perhaps a hint of things to come. Okay. You mentioned chargers. There was obviously a seismic announcement a couple of weeks ago. Ford said that it was an agreement with Elon Musk to go with the Tesla charger, and then you followed. How much of that decision was predicated on Ford? And how difficult is it for you to do that with a competitor? Like, Musk is someone who you've just competed viciously against for years. I wouldn't say viciously. I'd say aggressively. I don't think of myself as a vicious person. But, you know, it's a really great point. So, you know, we had been having conversations. I think one of the big things we wanted to make sure that our customers would still, you know, we have aggregated many different charging companies into the MyChevy app or the MyCadillac app, the MyGMC app, and we didn't want to lose that relationship because think about how often you need to charge. And so, I think one of the breakthroughs was, you know, they agreed it, you know, they would provide the information that would go through yours, and also that we get the same cost for our customers that Tesla customers do. And so, as we saw that change occurred, we evaluated it, and then we also looked at it from a customer perspective. And our technical team said, you know, frankly, the other charging standard was done, you know, by the standards body, the Society of Automotive Engineers. But when you looked at it, we thought the durability, the reliability, and the cost was cheaper. And so, you know, anytime you make a decision from a customer perspective and you're not choosing the most cost-effective, better solution, you do that at your own peril. And then for General Motors, it allowed us in one, you know, agreement to make, starting next year, instead of having 13,000 chargers across this country available, we'll have 25,000. And so, when I think about enabling people and solving that issue that they have, they trust the charger's going to be there, it was a pretty, you know, a decision that was not that hard to make, and we did it pretty fast. So, you did a Twitter Spaces with Elon Musk. Are you now, I mean, you were one of the first CEOs to back off Twitter as a platform, as an advertiser, when he took over. Does this mean that you are going to be returning? You know, I was one of many, I think, if you go back, a lot of those, and when you think about it, it's our competitor, too, with the information. We're right in the middle right now. Very shortly, we'll be announcing a new chief marketing officer, and I think as the new leader at Twitter comes on board, there's definitely a conversation to be had. But we just want to make sure, you know, as all of us, we're trying to make sure we spend our marketing dollars wisely. And, you know, from a platform, it became a little more complicated when an important competitor is running it. But I think there's an opportunity, again, when our new leadership and their new leadership comes on board, to have a conversation. So, do you think you can trust Elon Musk as a partner, or will you be still viewing him as a competitor? I think he's both. I think he's a part, I think in this case, but I think in this case, it's good for, it was a decision, really, that's good for everyone. And as you see more now, OEMs move to adapting this standard, I think it's going to be better for the consumer. And so, I think, you know, when you're aligned that it's in both of your best interests, I think we can move forward. And frankly, our team worked very seamlessly with the team at Tesla. I have to say they were great to work with. And then, of course, we're going to compete. But I think in a lot of spaces now, in many industries, you compete and you partner. So, we have a partnership with Honda, where we're doing a lot of work with Honda. We've done partnerships in the past with Ford. So, frankly, I think the industry would benefit from doing more partnerships. So, getting back to difficult decisions, you decided to pull GM out of Europe. You've had to close, I believe, at least five assembly plants as you make the transition to EVs. As someone who follows you, there was obviously the big controversy of the Lordstown plant, when then President Trump criticized you personally for doing that. And I think I asked her to sell it or do something quickly. She blamed the UAW union. I don't care. I just want it open. And this just went on for weeks and months. What did that feel like? And did you, I know you met with him, but just how as a CEO do you really deal with political pressure like that? Well, first of all, I never blamed it on the UAW. So, just for the record, it was a vehicle that wasn't selling anymore. It was an older vehicle and the way that plant had been designed, it was a very small vehicle that was built there. And the plant couldn't really build the vehicles that we have today. So, you had to face the business reality. In hindsight, we could have done a lot better job because we did have jobs for everyone. And I think we should have made that much more clear from the beginning. They weren't all in Lordstown. And I understand it's difficult when you have to ask people to move, but we did have good paying jobs for everyone. And many of the team in Lordstown chose to move to one of our other plants. But I think the root of your question is how does it feel? Well, it feels pretty bad. When you've got the president of the United States unhappy with you, it's not a good place to be. Note to self, everyone. We tried to work through it. We did feel a commitment to the community there in Lordstown. That's why that's where our first battery plant is. And we worked with another OEM that's using the plant. They're having some challenges now. So, we tried to do the right thing for the community. But I had to look back and say, I'm responsible for a lot of jobs in this country, a lot of good, especially good paying manufacturing jobs. And if I don't make the right decision to make sure the company's healthy and can compete and we can reinvest in our future, I put a lot more at risk. So, as difficult as it was, and I think we could have communicated better, learned a lot, it still was the right decision for General Motors. And you see us now, one of the plants we thought we were going to close, it was Detroit Hamtramck, which is now factory zero. We realized as we pushed into our EV acceleration, we needed that plant. And so, we were able to bring that workforce back. But if you don't make good decisions for your business because of legacy costs, you're going to find yourself in an uncompetitive position that puts everything at risk. And so, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions. The stakes are just so high for your success, not only for Michigan, for the Midwest, this ecosystem that really stitches together a lot of the Midwest, which is so politically important. Do you feel that pressure on your shoulder? Someone was telling me last week that you were to breakfast and someone said, when GM gets a cold, Michigan gets a flu. I mean, you really still are such an enormously influential company in the Midwest and the country, even though your actual employment is much lower than it used to be. Yeah, but I would still say Michigan, we have a tremendous amount of work in Michigan where our headquarters is for a lot of our technical talent is there. We just made a big announcement for a Lake Orient plant that we're converting it to be our second truck plant. We're building a battery plant there. So, we are investing big in Michigan. I do feel the pressure, but I feel that in every state because no one likes to close a plant. So, we're trying to make sure as we move through this transformation, we can take everyone along that's part of the GM team right now. And we've made a lot of strategic investments already. So, I'm proud of what we're doing. But again, it all starts with you have to have a fundamentally healthy business to be able to, that's the best way to secure everyone's future. And that's what we're working on. But we are very proud of our footprint in Michigan. And I'm very proud of our manufacturing workforce because the jobs are hard and they do a great job. And frankly, they were some of the first workforce back during COVID. And they learned, wore the mask, followed all the different as we learned what COVID really was. And we're the lifeblood of General Motors. Yeah. You can't really assemble a car remotely. No. And you, at some point, have backtracked on one of our favorite topics, return to office. Are you now at three days mandatory or where do you stand on that? We're asking everybody to come in three days. But let's remember, as I mentioned, our manufacturing team, our warehouse team, our design team, our R&D teams, they came back about six weeks after the world shut down. They were back in the office. And so I'm grateful for all of them. For our talent that did have the flexibility, you know, we started with what we called work appropriately. And what we asked everyone to do is be where you can do your best work. And slowly started to become be wherever I wanted to be. And it just wasn't good for the business. And so, you know, we understand we're competing for that talent, especially engineering and software talent. But we also felt it was very important because we need to make sure we continue to do, you know, products on time that are high quality and desirable. And if you think about designing a vehicle, it's the integration of 30,000 parts. And so we needed the people to be there. Not all the time. But, you know, so we asked for three days a week. You know, I would say we're seeing that grow almost on a weekly basis. We also did a voluntary separation program. And as most of the people who took our voluntary separation program are moving out, you know, I think it's going to give us a better opportunity to see where we're at. And we'll continue to message. But, you know, the great thing was, because we hired so many people during the pandemic, we were like one or two weeks in. And there was a young engineer who had only worked remotely. And she came up to us and she said, you know, I wasn't sure I really wanted to come back. But she says, being here for two weeks, I get it. We need to be here. And, you know, we had a vocal minority. I mean, I, you know, read some stories on Reddit and then they stopped going there. But some of the comments are like, why do you work here? You obviously are unhappy. So, you know, please make other choices. But, you know, I would say that's a very minor group. For the most part, people get it. So you mentioned 30,000 parts. And just at a higher level, doesn't an electric vehicle, it has fewer parts. And so that means that eventually you're going to need fewer workers. How does that calculus go? I mean, obviously, obviously, you had some contentious talks with the UAW, and that's going to be a real challenge. But again, as we look at the demographics of our workforce, and some of the things that we've done is, for instance, building battery plants, that was work in the past that had been done by a supplier. So as we make this transformation, we're making strategic decisions of where we should vertically integrate. And that will create more jobs as well. So we think we have it balanced. And we're going to keep looking for ways to be more efficient. That's, you know, that's part what our manufacturing team does every year. But we've balanced it by also having additional vertical integration. So you're pretty confident that the employment level will at least stay stable? And if we, as we continue to succeed, you know, I'm very proud almost, I should say, almost all of the electric vehicles, whether it's the Bolt, we have long waiting lists or interest in all of these vehicles. And so if we continue to, you know, design and build compelling vehicles with high quality that people want to have, you know, that's what's going to be the, you know, opportunity to make sure we have jobs for everyone. I have a bunch more questions here. But no, no, no, not yet. But I'm going to open it up. I'm going to open it up at a few. Mary, I just have to ask you about China. It's been so much in the headlines. GM has a storied tradition in China, I think, dating back to the 20s, where the emperor drove a Buick and the Buick has been a big name there. Obviously, I believe you have 50,000 employees there. There's a growing competition in China, and also growing controversy about being in China. How are you, I guess, first of all, viewing what's happening in the market there? Your market share has declined quite significantly. And, you know, are you optimistic? There's a growing sense of nationalism. There are people like Chinese brands. And so how are you feeling about your prospects in a business sense? Yeah, you know, first of all, you know, we hope that the two countries can find ways to have a level playing ground and have policies that allow, you know, the right interaction and commerce between the two countries. We have seen a shift. You know, right now there's over 100 all EV automakers in China. Over 100. Capacity utilization in China is 50%. That's not sustainable. I think less than a handful are profitable. So there's a lot of sorting that has to happen there. We do have strong brands, you know, from a premium space with Cadillac and Buick, and then Chevrolet as well. So I think part of it is, you know, the economy is still recovering. We're starting to see our EV sales now grow. I think we were a little late on having some of the right EVs in country. We're doing that now. We have a Buick that's launching right now that's doing very well. And our Cadillac brand in general has done well there. But it is a shift. And so we're working through that. I don't know if we'll ever, with that many new entrants, I don't know if we'll ever be at the, you know, 14% that we were. But, you know, I think we can have a sizable business there in China for China from an autonomous perspective, from a communications perspective. And I think with just the way the technology's sorting out, you know, specifically in China, it will be China in China for China. And so on the other side, being against China has become one of the only bipartisan issues. United Washington right now, there's a lot of concern in the business community of what about a Russia moment, a potential invasion of Taiwan. The Journal had a story this morning that a lot of companies are kind of siloing their China business. Others are diversifying away from China. What is your reaction to that? Are you going to, are you going to try to move some of this to other countries? Or how do you answer as one of the big U.S. companies in China to these concerns? Well, I think, as I said, you know, we hope that the two countries can find a, you know, a plane where it's going to, they're going to be able to work. We think there's an opportunity there. But, you know, what we learned through COVID, you know, over the last 20 years, the auto industry has, the supply chain is completely global. And unlike Russia, there's a lot of it in China. And it's not, we'll move it somewhere else because somewhere else doesn't do it, doesn't make that component, doesn't have that technology. So it's not just moving where you buy your parts, it's creating a whole new space. But what we also saw is, you know, with the pandemic, you need much more supply chain resiliency. You know, some of the single sourcing or having everything come from one place is just not good business. And so we're working on supply chain resiliency. But, you know, I think the situation is very different than Russia. And that's not just for the auto industry, that's for several industries. It's for pharma. Many, many industries have that kind of dependence. And it goes both ways. So I think I've had the opportunity to speak to several members of the administration in Congress. It just, you know, has to be done in a way that it would have, I think, a very dramatically negative impact for both economies if it's, if what the new normal is, isn't done with a lot of thought. Will your battery factories in the U.S. help you, help you lessen your sourcing on China? But that was already a decision. You know, we started building our plant in Ohio. We have a strategic joint venture with LG Energy Solutions, which is a Korean company. That was long underway before all of COVID and supply chain. So we were already doing that because what's kind of for us, in addition to going through the pandemic, and then the semiconductor shortage, and then just supply-based challenges, one of our biggest issues right now is logistics. You know, I have vehicles built that I can't get on rail, truck or rail, to get where it needs to go. And so when you look at the logistics component, you know, especially for big components, you need to build them much closer to where you're going to assemble them. So you are chair of the Business Roundtable, which is an incredibly influential group of CEOs. And in 2019, about 200 CEOs signed a letter that was really like a seismic shift in American business, stating that the shareholder, the interests of shareholders were no longer the primary interest of companies, and that all stakeholders, whether it be suppliers, employees, communities, and it was really seen as a turning point in business. There's been, it feels like a reconsideration of that. There's this anti-woke movement. There's a sense that actually shareholder value should be the primary interest of companies. Where is that discussion? And as you as leader, like, what are you hearing and where do you think it should go? Well, I think the seismic shift that was written about it was kind of, wasn't really accurate. Because, you know, when we, as a group of CEOs, and I wasn't leading BRT at that time, but as we talked about it, you know, you step back and if you're not doing the right thing for your employees, you're not doing, treating your suppliers well, for us, it's our dealers, our unions, and the communities we live and work, it's not going to turn out well for the shareholders. The way we looked at it is, and I think, and I've talked to a lot of our, you know, our long shareholders who, of course, understand if you do the right thing for the constituencies and you have good relationships, good partnerships, it's going to be better for the company and therefore better for the shareholder. So I think it was seen as the seismic shift that really was what good business was already doing. And it wasn't attached to what now is termed woke. It was really just, you know, doing the right thing for all the people you need to have a successful business. And so that's the way I looked at it. And I think most of the members of the BRT look at it the same way today. So you don't think there's really any retrenchment then? I mean, there's talk about DEI and companies, and there's a reality, actually, that feels like a lot of companies are stepping back from those ambitious goals just a couple years ago. Stakeholder activism is something that's actively being debated. Well, I think, you know, I think some things on the extremes on both sides are being misinterpreted and, frankly, leveraged for not what their intent was at all. I mean, at General Motors, we want to be the most inclusive company in the world. But when I talk to our employees about it, I say, I literally say, how many people have been at work and haven't felt valued or felt ignored? And I raise my hand. And I say, how did that feel? And then they raise their hand. I'll be like, it felt pretty bad, right? I go, well, why would we want anyone to feel that way? You know, if we want to have everybody engaged, doing their very best work, being their true self at work so they can do their best work, we've got to have a culture at General Motors that respects differences. I'm not asking everybody to agree on everything. I'm asking them to have enough respect for each other, to value each other and respect the differences. And, you know, when I talk to employees about it, they say, yeah, that's right. No one wants to feel bad at work. Everybody wants to feel like they're valued, that their work is recognized. And so that's what we're working on. And to have tolerance for the fact that we don't agree on everything. Because, you know, I mean, if you put 10 people in a room, they're not going to agree on everything. So, you know, I think, again, inclusion is just respecting differences. So as chair of BRT, you don't think there's going to be like an amendment, a different letter or response or a revision of that original letter from 2019? Again, because it was, again, I think we all agreed it was when you have the right relationships and think through your shareholder, your stakeholders, it's doing the right thing for your shareholders. What is it like just taking a step back from all this to be a CEO and just this politically charged environment where it feels like any decision you make is going to be viewed by the extremes, but also just under such a microscope, you look at what's happening with Disney and so many Bud Light, so many companies out there. You know, at General Motors, we try to really stay focused on what's core to our business? What's important to our business? What do we have enough knowledge on to take a position on? And then we also are rooted in our values, our core values of the company. And so a lot of times when we talk about something, we're not talking about the issue that's the issue of that day, we're talking about what does it mean and how does it relate to the values of General Motors? Because we can all be different and have different views, but we all do need to live the values of the company. And so that's how we frame it and look at it and try to live that every day. And I think if we do that, we can explain why we did what we did. And again, we want to be inclusive. We don't want to make decisions for everyone else. We enjoy a very diverse customer base right now because we deliver a product they want to buy with high quality and with a brand that they know they can trust. We want to continue to do that. So one more question before I open it up. You sit on the board of Disney and obviously Bob Iger has come back. Succession is a primary function of a board. What is your view on that both as a CEO and a board member where succession has obviously been such a big topic? What is the right role for a CEO in terms of one's own successor? Well, I think it's important that for a board, I think it's one of their most important jobs. And I also think it's an important at every level, whether you're a first line manager all the way to a CEO, part of your role should be developing the talent that could take your position. And so I think it's a role. I mean, I think to think in any of you that run a business, to think that you're going to get it 100% right in every position you promote or hire into. So I think when you realize you've got to make a change, you've got to make a change. And I'm a huge Bob Iger fan. I think what he's accomplished at Disney, and I think he's the right person for Disney right now in the transformation that that industry is going through. So you've been in this seat almost 10 years. I don't get any sense you're going anywhere anytime fast. Well, obviously I serve at the pleasure of the board. So it's not my decision, it's theirs. But this is the most exciting time in this industry. And I'm humbled to be able to lead the General Motors team. They're so talented and they're so dedicated. And we have more to do I think because of General Motors history, we're not like a startup that's given the benefit of the doubt. We're a show me company. And I'm intent on showing with our EVs, with autonomous that we didn't get a chance to talk to because cruise, AV is here right now. And if you've had a chance to take a ride in one of our cruise vehicles, there's no driver. So a lot of times when people say, oh, I've been in an autonomous vehicle, unless you've been in a vehicle that there's no one in the driver's seat, you really haven't experienced level four autonomy. And I have several times. So I think cruise, the growth opportunity we have there is tremendous. And then what we can do with software to create a customer experience that people can't even imagine today. I'm super excited. So one last beat on cruise, you bought it in 2016. Uber, a lot of others have backed away from autonomous driving. But I guess you're fully autonomous in San Francisco and on the verge in five others? Yeah, we're running 24 seven in the seven by seven of San Francisco. We're expanding in Phoenix. We're expanding in Austin, which we were able to get up and running in three months at the end of last year. We just announced Houston and Dallas. So there will be more to come. And, you know, again, once you have an opportunity to ride in an autonomous vehicle, at least the people who have ridden in cruise vehicles, they are very likely to they say they're very likely to take a ride again. I think it would be even higher if it wasn't for the fact we're not everywhere yet. So we don't have every one of their use cases. And, you know, you're being the ride is incredible. I know all of you have probably been in a ride share. And sometimes that's a little bit of a harrowing experience, depending on the capability of the driver. This is the autonomous technology pays attention all the time, knows all the traffic safety rules. They know all the restrictions. And it's just a very different ride that gives you confidence. You know, people are like first like they get in and they're like, oh, my gosh. And then like two minutes in, they're like, OK, yeah, this is fine. I mean, it's that fast that people get get confidence in the technology. And we've done a lot of work with cruise. I'm so proud of the cruise team. So despite some high profile accidents, particularly from a competitor, you're fully confident in the safety of safety gates, what we do at cruise. And we've leveraged not only the knowledge of, you know, Gil West is our CEO. He came he was the CEO of Delta before and so very much understands the safety management systems that that the airline industry use. We know the safety systems that we we use and that knowledge together and working with our regulators. So every step of the way, they know what we're doing and they know the data that we have backing up the decisions that we make. Safety has and always will be a gating factor for us. OK, I am going to open it up to questions. There are I promised I would. And we still have a few minutes. There are microphones. So could you please. There's one right up in the front here. Sorry to make it hard for the first. If you maybe state your name. And sure. Absolutely. My name is Chris Gates. And thank you both for doing this. And it's a question actually for both of you, because you've each you as a journalist, Rebecca and Mary first running this iconic business have got kind of a relationship with each other day to day. Rebecca, how do you find something new to say about General Motors ongoing? I guess I'll go first. I'm now president of NBC News, so I don't I'm not actually the reporter covering General Motors any longer. I did that a number of years ago. But I have to say that being a reporter just has informed me of stories that I'm interested in as an editor. And you don't want to be that annoying editor who's always assigning specific things. But but I do believe in the value of covering the country from the ground up and certainly have had a front row seat to the importance of of a company like General Motors. And I mean, you and I have known each other for a long time, and you've kind of tracked the success in all of your roles, starting with a reporter and all the way through what we're doing. So, you know, I think it's I always enjoy talking to Rebecca because you have tremendous knowledge about our business and about the company. Thank you. Appreciate that. My name is Gary Lauder. And my wife tells me to stand up. So I listen. So in 2006, the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car came out long prior to your being CEO. But what's your take on that? Because it was it's an interesting object lesson in government trying to force an industry to do something that it didn't otherwise want to do. But it was in its interest, as we know, in retrospect. Thanks. Sure. Well, Gary and I went to Stanford Business School together. So hi to a classmate. No, you know, if I if I look back at General Motors, you know, we were first with EV1. The technology really wasn't mature enough. At that time, it was more than 20 years ago. We never stopped working on electric vehicles. And in 2010, that was the Volt, which was an extended range electric vehicle. You know, I would say when people ask me if I could push a button and do something over, I would have I would have done EVs faster. You know, but I am where I am. And we're going as fast as we can. And I think we've got a winning portfolio. Customers give us that vote of confidence every day. But I wish we would have continued to pioneer what we did. But of course, during that period of time, General Motors had a lot of other challenges. But again, you know, back even in the mid, even while we were going through the, you know, the restructuring in the 0809 timeframe in 2010 is when the Volt came out. So we remain committed. I just, you know, again, I think it's something we're working as quick as we can to accelerate. And we've been doing that for the last now six years. Questions? We've got an active row back there. Hi, Miss Barrow. My name is Duthie. And I'm actually from Michigan. I'm from Ann Arbor, Michigan. And I'm 17 years old here to represent the Bezos scholars who are being funded by the Bezos Family Foundation to come and attend the Aspen Ideas Festival. My father and many of my family friends actually have worked with GM or have worked with you before. And my father, he no longer works there. But he did mention to me when I told him that Mary Barrow was coming. He's like, I have never felt more committed and a part of a family and working to a project. And he says that there's such a family feeling and a sense of purpose in what you're doing. And I'm just wondering, how do you establish that sense of community within your talents that you work with? And just how do you create that family feeling? Well, thank you very much for the question. And you can call me Mary. And I, you know, again, I think it's a fundamental of valuing everybody that works for General Motors and knowing they can make a choice to work wherever they'd like and respecting that the work they do. So, you know, I think it starts at that core level. And that's what we try to make sure, you know, we have employee behaviors where we ask everyone to be focused on the customer, to be bold, to look ahead. And, you know, we talk about the values and how we want to win. So I think it's, and then we communicate and communicate and communicate so people understand what we're doing and why. So I think those are just a few. One more question. Okay. Good morning. I have a governance question and a management question for you this morning. The governance question comes from a story I heard about Steve Jobs that at one point before the first iPhone came out, he was vacillating about whether to include apps. Sounds incredible sitting here today. And so my question, the governance question is, what role did your board, and his board convinced him to do it. That was the punchline I left out. So what role did your board play in your decision to transition to all electric vehicles by 2035? And the management question is, are you doing like a skunk works kind of thing on the electric vehicle side? Were you saying, okay, this is so different than our historic business. We're going to put a group all the way off to the side. We're not going to leverage our existing processes, people, systems, and should we do it separately? Or are you doing it as an integrated part of your existing business today? So the first question with the board, I have a fabulous board of people who have just tremendous experience in business. And so they do oversee the strategy of the company. But when I talk to the board, I always say, we don't just come with a decision with a bow wrapped around it and nicely. I always say, we're going to take you on the journey. And so as we learn, because then I get the benefit of their knowledge at every step, major milestone that helps us make better decisions. So our board is very involved in helping and gaining insights into, you know, strengthening the strategy that we put in front of them. As it relates to the transition, I'd actually say we've done both. You know, for instance, we had a dedicated team working on the Bolt, a dedicated team working on the Hummer. And the Hummer was a vehicle because of the work we'd done on the LTM platform. We did that vehicle in about half the time, and it's really changed the way we develop vehicles. And we put a dedicated team, and we empowered them to say, go fast. You can't follow all of our normal processes, or you won't make the time, yet we're not going to compromise safety or quality. And they, you know, just did tremendous work. And so then we institutionalize that, and that becomes the process that we use. And so I would say it's kind of iterative. We also have a dedicated team for all of the EV products. They're all, they all have their own chief engineers, and actually there's a vice president who has all EV products. So we're trying to get the best of both worlds, because when you think about it from an EV perspective, what's different is the propulsion system. But the seats, whether the infotainment is the same, whether it's, regardless of how the vehicle's propelled. So we're trying to leverage what's common, so we can go fast and not have duplicate costs. But then in the areas that are all new, empower the teams to innovate. We have time for one more question. You've been patient right up here. Hi, Joan Michaelson, Electric Ladies Podcast. I have interviewed two of your executives, Kristen Seaman and Telva Magruder, and I look forward to interviewing you as well. I wanted to ask you about the SEC Climate Risk Disclosure Rules that are coming out. You obviously have been ahead of the curve on the transition to climate-friendly business. And the, but you wrote, you signed a letter with, I don't know, I guess it was a couple hundred CEOs pushing back on the proposed climate rules that came out. And there's obviously a lot of CEOs and business leaders in this audience who also will have to deal with those rules on some level. So in order to transition to a clean energy economy, what is it in those rules that you would change? What do you suggest is left in it? What's your problem with them? If you can talk a little bit about how the SEC's rules would impact your business and how you think about them. Well, and I think where you're seeing the most pushback for CEOs, and I want to speak for them, so there's literally things that you're being asked from an SEC disclosure perspective that carry a, you know, a different standard from an audit ability perspective that we don't have and we can't, we don't know. So it's pretty hard to put out our statements that are under, you know, that kind of disclosure from an SEC perspective when you literally are saying, I can't get the data to do it. So that's one of our big issues. It's kind of a chicken and the egg situation. And obviously, you know, I think every company takes complying with the SEC very seriously. And so when we sit there and say, okay, there's provisions in the new, the draft written, I guess, it's not legislation, but rulemaking that we literally don't know how to do, you know, we're raising the concern flag. And Mary, lastly, before we wrap up, I just can't help but ask, what would your advice be to a young man or woman who's starting out in business today or considering the car industry? What is the big thing that you think that as an ambitious young person, you need to remember working your way up? Well, I would say three things. One, find your passion, because then, you know, it's still going to be work. I don't want to say it's not work, but find your passion. So you, you know, you feel it's aligned with what is important to you. Second is do every job like you're going to do it for the rest of your life. Don't rent a job. You know, when you see so many people, when I talk to people and they're already more focused on their next job than the job they're doing, they usually don't do well. So invest in your job, do it like you're going to own it. That's when you're going to make it better. You're going to, I mean, no one washes or rent a car. So don't rent your job, own it. And then, then lastly, work hard, because there's really no substitute for hard work. And I learned that from my parents who grew up in the Depression era. I'd like you to join me in thanking Mary for an incredible conversation. Thank you.