A Cinematic Art Experience Giotto’s Kiss of Judas Painting of the Week Podcast S2 E19

Welcome to the Painting of the Week podcast, where we look at some of the most significant paintings throughout history. Introducing your hosts, Phil Grabski and Laura Bentham. Welcome to this week's Painting of the Week, and today we're talking about a wonderful painting by Giotto, or Giotto di Bondone, and it is called The Kiss of Judas. This particular painting you can see, as ever, on the 7th-art.com website. Just go there and go to the podcast and podcasts and click on the picture. It is fabulous. And wouldn't you say, Laura? Yeah. What do you think of it, Laura? I haven't actually asked you. Well, as always, I get my notes and I get my titles, and I look at the painting and I think, well, no, I don't know this one at all. And then I find out that it's actually a whole chapel. And then I've seen, now looked at the chapel, and of course, then I find out that you've actually filmed it. And I mean, oh, it's absolutely spectacular. I'd love to go in there. It's, so yeah, let's talk a little bit more about it. So Bondone is a 13th-century painter, and, sorry, Giotto is a 13th-century painter. And this is a very significant sequence of frescoes because you're starting to get a sense of personality, drama, narrative in paintings. I mean, for some, these are the first great painting masterpieces, if you like. It's in a chapel in Padua, or as the Italians call it, Padua, which is not that far from Venice. In fact, once we, I remember we'd filmed this chapel, and then the next day, very, very early, we got a boat. It was still dark, to Venice, and that was really special. I'll never forget that, kind of, pootering along, along these canals, and then out, and then to Venice, just as, you know, the sun was coming up. Oh, yeah, no, that would have been amazing. Now, the chapel, it's like, you have to imagine, it's like walking inside a, it's almost like walking inside a film, in a way. The walls are entirely covered with his paintings. And if I remember correctly, let's see if I get this right, the top, well, basically, if you imagine panels, and they're all about, in feet, about six feet by six feet, so whatever that is in metres, that's about 180 by 180 metres. And the whole chapel, from floor to ceiling, are these drawpit paintings, telling you a chronological narrative, life of Mary, life of Jesus, the Passion, so Easter, essentially. I've actually got it written down. Oh, okay. What have you got? Birth of Mary, which, isn't that quite unusual? Is there many things of the birth of Mary? Very unusual, yeah. Their marriage, Joseph to Joseph, birth of Jesus, the childhood, passion of Christ, kiss of Judas, which is us, death on the cross, pain on earth, and eternal life. And I'm assuming, did you film them all? Did you film the whole chapel? Well, yes and no. I've actually been in this, I've actually filmed this chapel twice, just because camera technology improved. Oh, okay. But of course, the top line is quite high. So, in a way, we did film the whole chapel, but we also got high resolution images, where somebody built a scaffold and taken a photograph, kind of straight on, on a vertical level, horizontal level. Would you use a drone now, then? It's interesting that you, I mean, most institutions wouldn't let you use a drone inside. Oh, okay. I have seen one or two gallery shots that have clearly been done by a drone, just because they're high up, but it wouldn't be steady enough. Well, actually, I say that, drones are remarkably steady. No, I mean, in the old days, you'd use something called a jimmy jib or a jib arm, where your camera's on the end of a long arm and you counterweight it and basically you just put it to the height of the painting. We have used those. But, you know, they're expensive. Or, you know, imagine when Michelangelo was painting the Sistine Chapel, he had his scaffold and he'd lie on his back painting. Well, you know, the photographer, when he or she did this, they were just to build a scaffold and work their way along. Started employing really tall people. Now, of course, for my film, Easter in Art, which is such a powerful film, whether you're Christian or not. I can't wait, actually. I didn't think I'd ever say that either, Phil. I'm really looking forward to it. It's tremendously moving. But these paintings became quite useful because the premise of the film, just to remind you, is that I went to the four Gospels with a colleague because I actually don't know. I mean, in the course of making that film, I talked to people and nobody knows the story of Easter. People know details, but don't know the actual. Anyway, so I went through the four Gospels and over the course of the 80 minutes, we have the key moments that tell you what happens in those last few days of this individual Jesus's life. Now, of course, the big moment and the factor that determines whether you, almost certainly whether you are a Christian or not, is whether you believe in the resurrection. There's very little doubt that there was this preacher and in short, he was crucified. Yeah. Which is a particularly brutal way to die. And as I say in the kind of the poster for the film, you know, it's the greatest story ever written and it's the greatest story ever painted. It's the most painted historical moment of any. And all great artists have dealt with it. And for various reasons, either because that's what's being commissioned or because if you're stuck perhaps doing portraits or you know, to be asked to do a crucifixion or a deposition when the body's taken down from the cross or, you know, these are fantastically complicated and in some ways, attractive things to paint. And you have the opportunity of painting a human body almost naked, which, you know, in other situations you don't. But also that relationship between mother and child, between friends. And in this scene, of course, you've got all sorts of things going on, not least betrayal. But the main point, of course, for Giotto is that the audience is illiterate. So how are you going to communicate the story of the Bible if people can't read? Now, if the mass is in Latin, which people, you know, it's a good three, 400 years before the Bible is in the vernacular language, so Italian in this case. So the audience is sitting there, wow, we don't know what's going on. So that's why you have, basically, you have pictures on the wall to help you understand what the story is. This is a key... I'm so pleased you've explained that, Phil. That's really helped me understand. Well, and another thing, of course... Well, of course, what you have in Padua, as you have in the Sistine Chapel, is you have a visual representation of hell. Well, I mean, if you are living in a world where you take... you absolutely don't question the existence of God, but also you are unquestioning about the existence of hell. And when you see hell depicted in all its apparent brutality, well, if that's not an incentive to behave well, when the idea of being spiked and cut into core... I mean, the human imagination for depicting brutality, you know, is really quite shocking. We haven't actually got on some of those paintings yet, Phil. Well, yeah, maybe we should look at one of those. So that is, just as in the Sistine Chapel, that is, you know, the Last Judgment is on the walls of Padua. We'll talk more about the chapel and Scrovegni and the person that commissioned it in a second, but let's have a look at this picture. So, of course, I guess most people would know the story. Jesus has 12 key disciples. He's already said in what's known as the Last Supper, which was a Passover meal, he said that one of you will betray me. And they've all gone, no way, none of us will. But he already knows it's going to be Judas. Oh, he did already know that? Okay. I thought he didn't know at all. No, he knew. I thought he just predicted that he knew he was going to be betrayed, but he didn't know when or where. So he knew then it was Judas. Yeah. Okay. And Judas has accepted his silver, you know, and basically the story is that Judas at night is leading the soldiers that have come to arrest Jesus, but they don't necessarily know what he looks like. So Judas says, well, I will kiss the man that is Jesus. And this is that kiss of betrayal. So don't misunderstand it. There's a way of pointing out this is Jesus. And Jesus, he's known for a long time what his destiny is. And of course, all those great paintings of the Madonna and Child are always poignant, because you have a mother who is doting on her new baby, but also knows what his destiny is, because she's been told. Well, even in the painting itself, I mean, I don't know how many paintings of the kiss of Judas there are, but the inevitability to actually manage to get that expression on Jesus' face, I feel like it's there. It's just like, oh, okay, this is it now. And bear in mind, this is a fresco. Yeah. So a fresco is where you're painting onto drying plaster. So you've got to move fast. Yeah. And actually, one of the things that is quite extraordinary about this is just, and there's so many panels, but the detail, and he had a workshop, he had about 30 or 40 of his workshop with him, apparently. But still, he's the one responsible, certainly, I'm sure, for facial expressions. And, you know, again, what we're always trying to do with exhibition on screen is, you know, look at that bit closer. So if you have a look, and you see the detail on Jesus' face, and his hair, and his beard. He has captured it, though. It's incredible. And actually, the expression on Judas' face, which was sort of a determination, but also, I wonder, well, he did regret it, didn't he? Because didn't he hand the money back? Yeah, but it was too late. Oh, yeah. But, you know, also the way that Judas has been portrayed, he's not as, basically, he's not as attractive as Jesus. No. And that's deliberate. Yeah. And the other thing, which is really interesting, we've talked before about the use of colour, and how Mary wasn't initially the case, but basically was always painted in blue, because lapis lazuli, which is a mineral that comes from Afghanistan, from one mine, was so valuable, so expensive, because it had this singular source, and created this beautiful blue, that they used it to depict Mary. Yeah. Just as, and again, we've talked about this before, just as you had that purple stripe for Roman senators, because that was made from sea snails, until Jesus, until Julius Caesar, showing off, had a cloak made entirely of purple. And then from that moment on, the Caesars, the emperors had cloaks of purple, and then the popes. So, but this, of course, what is very noticeable here, is the yellow of his cloak. And this is very poignant, because yellow was being used, had already been determined as a colour of deceit, and treachery. Right. Now, again, this is to make it easy for people to identify Judas. So, if you see Judas in pictures, not always, but fairly often, he is the man in yellow. So, if you're looking at A Last Supper, then probably Judas is there, sitting in yellow. It's a shame we didn't know that, isn't it? So, we know, and he's enveloped, you know, this cloak of treachery and deceit. He's enveloped Jesus in it, and Jesus is kind of standing up to him. He's taller than him. He's looking down on him. Now, why this is poignant, is because, I think it's in the 12th century, that there was a pope. Now, what was his name? I'm trying to remember. Oh, sorry, Phil. Pope Innocent III. Oh, I think I did know that. I think I have got that written down. Well, in the 12th or 13th century, maybe the 12th century, so before this, and maybe why this is, maybe this is when yellow starts to be used, he has designated that Jews and Muslims have to be, have to wear yellow badges. Yes. To distinguish themselves. It's a terrible human, I mean, it's such a, it just makes me so sad and angry that, you know, people have picked on other religions and racism. But, who famously in the 20th century resurrected this idea of the yellow badge? Well, the Nazis. Yeah, I was about to say that. Yeah. And, okay. It's amazing, it's amazing the use of, you know, the power of colour. But anyway, looking at the picture, there are some other narrative scenes, narrative points, which you will find in the Gospel. I think the most obvious one, if you look picture left to Jesus, you will see a man who's looking on, and the man behind him has just sliced off his ear. See that? Oh. So that ear. Oh, yeah. Which is tumbling to the ground. Okay, no, I hadn't seen that. So that's just been sliced off again, it's in the Gospel. Oh, Lord. Okay. And. There's a bit much going on there. I saw the dagger. I see the ear falling. Well, Jesus, actually in the Gospels, the next thing that happens is he turns to say, no, I'm not having that. No. And actually he repairs the ear, the ear is miraculously returned to the guy's head and without any damage. But again, it's so colourful. And you look at these cloaks, so that, you know, the red and pink cloaks, well, obviously, this is, you know, the sense of blood and danger and humanity. When you were there, Phil, are those colours as vibrant? Actually, I don't remember them as being as vibrant as that. Okay. They're slightly, slightly. I remember them being slightly paler. Now, could be a number of reasons. One, just because the light in the chapel on that day. Yeah, maybe. Okay. Two, they might have been restored. And three, they might have just tweaked it in the image that we're looking at. Because it does look absolutely, I mean, for such as sort of a story and a statement, there is a very vibrant scene. And you can understand why it is so popular. Oh, God. The whole scene and the paintings got more and more popular, didn't he? He got really, really good. He painted sort of only frescoes, didn't he? During his life. So, yeah. It's got a great sense of storytelling. I mean, it's almost slightly strange. If you look to the left, one of only what, one, two, three characters that have halos is virtually, you just about see his eye. Yeah. And you'd think, if you didn't know that this was the shape of his paintings, and, you know, they're all the same size in the chapel, you'd think that they'd been cut. But no, he's done it that way. And it's saying the action is continuing either side. It keeps the whole scene very vibrant and active. I kind of like that. As ever, with the pikes and the flames and the horn, you know, you've got the sound, you know, you've got a sense of sound and music and flames hissing and pikes banging. Oh, they were going to just arrest him, weren't they? Yeah. I was going to say they weren't going to actually kill him there. No, he's arrested and he actually goes off through a number of different stages. Again, Eastern art's very good for understanding. There are basically four stages that happen very quickly. He's arrested at night and crucified the next day. But there's a lot of people he sees first, who basically say, I can't deal with this. The next guy says, I can't deal with you. And the next guy says, no, you. And, you know, on the one hand, it's inevitable. On the other hand, he seems to have these moments where there's a chance that somebody will say, let him be free, you know, we'll crucify Barabbas and let Jesus go. Yeah. In a sense, the story, the Gospels are just, it's just heightening the drama and the sadness in the way of these humans. On the one hand, I mean, the thing about Jesus is the way he's portrayed as both a human and a God. So, you know, you want to empathise with the pain that he's going through, even though he has to die on the cross. Yeah. You know, Christianity can't really exist if he is, you know, somebody says at the bottom of the cross, somebody says, if you're the son of God, then why doesn't he just let you go down? Yeah. But Jesus knows that they can't happen. I mean, according to the Bible. Well, I've never really looked at many religious paintings, as you know, because I'm on this big journey now through them with you. So are there that many paintings of the kids of Judas? Somebody said to me that in the National Gallery in London, they said a third of the paintings were religious. Oh, really? Anyway, I can't quite remember, but a very high percentage of paintings are religious because that was what was commissioned. Yeah. Before, you know, before the kind of rise of mercantile Europe and the rise of empires like the Dutch and the Portuguese and the British and the French, Austro-Hungarian, where you had very wealthy people all of a sudden with houses and who wanted to commission art and artists. So if you're a painter, and we've talked about this with Raphael, Michelangelo, Leonardo. Yes, there might be some wealthy individuals that would commission a portrait. But basically, it's either the state in terms of nobility, kings, queens. So Velázquez, people like that, working for the king and queen. Or it's the church. And certainly Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael, part of their work as artists was to, maybe ingratiate is the wrong word, but to become commissioned by the popes. And we looked in the Raphael film, didn't we, about how Raphael, he might seem like a very sweet, amiable chap, but behind the scenes, anyone trying to get his papal commissions was given a punch in the nose. And nothing's really changed. I mean, to be honest, until relatively recently, like, you know, maybe 15 years ago, a filmmaker like me had four channels in the United Kingdom we could go to. Yeah, so it's very competitive. And they didn't really want films on certain subjects. And they wanted films on other subjects. And that kind of didn't work for me. And times it did work for me. But you were obviously affected by it. So the trick for an artist, in some ways, was one, to get the commission. Yeah. And then to use it to explore just how great an artist you could be, how you could improve as an artist. But actually, these are very, it's a very exciting story. Yes. Yeah. I mean, the Bible is full of incidents, full of drama, full of pathos, full of, you know, emotion. So, I mean, what I find staggering about, and people really need to look at the whole chapel. I mean, it's talking so many paintings. I really want to go. There's another place now. I've got so many on my list. It's unbelievable. Really, really unbelievable. It's just like, I'm going to have the list as long as I can at this rate. How is, sorry, Giotto. Giotto. Giotto. Giotto. I've said it so many times today and I can't remember it now. But wasn't he like one of the first then to take, is he early Renaissance? Because didn't he then, his style, he was so popular that he constantly got commissions because he started to sort of put a fresh take on painting, adding perspective with things like that for the first time. Is that right? So, there is perspective here. So, what is he coming from? I don't know. I thought he was quite a nice childhood. No, I don't mean that. I mean, in art historical terms. Okay. I mean, not so far from Padua. If you go across Italy to a place called Ravenna, they have the most amazing mosaics there, which basically you would kind of think of as Byzantine. Yes. Which was before him. Before him. So, you know, 4th, 5th, 6th century. So, what you have with the Roman Empire is you have, I mean, Rome is the most extraordinary empire and basically, well, obviously it's already, it starts in the 1st century BC. Obviously, you know, it's the Romans that ultimately crucified Jesus Christ. So, 1st century BC, the Romans are at their peak, continue until the 3rd, 4th centuries, then it starts to fall apart. And one of the things that happens is they split the capital and then they actually have four capitals at one point. So, four different. Yeah. But in the 5th and 6th centuries, you have this wonderful kind of mosaic work. And Ravenna has the most beautiful mosaics. They're very flat. So, if you imagine now, if you think of art that you might see in Istanbul, Constantinople ultimately was where the Roman Empire ends, actually. The Roman Empire doesn't, you could argue, has never really completely finished. But if it has a date that it finished, it's 1492. So, it lasts a huge amount of time. And it ends with the fall of Constantinople. If you imagine what we call Byzantine art, very flat, you know, very little personality in the faces. They're kind of looking straight at you. Yeah. So, I did actually have a look in the week and thought, Oh, okay. Yeah, just a real quick one. I was wondering if you were going to tell me about it, which was good. Because then, because that's what they were saying about him saying how he had, which is why, what made him so popular, what made him keep getting the commissions, was because it was such a fresh painting at the time. Because he actually added perspective, sort of, like you say, personality on the faces and things like that, compared to those. So... So, you asked whether this is early Renaissance? Yeah. I actually don't know whether this would be considered early Renaissance or whether it's the precursor to early Renaissance. I'm not quite sure when... No. ...you would consider the Renaissance to start. In some ways, the Renaissance, the rebirth, my understanding of it, it's when in Rome they start digging up ancient Roman statues and paintings, you know. Well, if anyone else thinks it's something different, they can let us know, can't they? Definitely let us know. So, but clearly this is now on the way to, you know, it's much more realistic than Byzantine art. And also you're starting to get the personality of the artist. Yeah. Which you don't have earlier, really. They're certainly never signed. Has he painted himself in any of the paintings in that chapel? Because I can't see it that he had. So I was actually surprised, because the last few podcasts we've done, they love putting themselves in. Well, that would be interesting for someone to say. Yes, whether it's in any of the others. From memory, I think he does somewhere, but I actually, I'm not sure. I can't remember. Okay. Well, it'd be lovely if someone could let us know then. Because I was wondering if you knew, if it was somewhere dotted in the back there, or something. I mean, it's a very, it's a small little chapel. I mean, you'd almost not notice it if you went to Padua. No. It's nothing grand. It's also known as the Scrivene Chapel, because it was owned by the Scrivene family. I think the story there is that they didn't have a great reputation because they were moneylenders. So what do you do? You know, you, you know, it's like the oligarchs of today. Yeah. You know, you've got a terrible reputation. So you give a million pounds to the British Museum, or you buy a football club and you, you know, you, you cover up your immorality. Yes. In my opinion, by making large gestures. This is slightly different, I suppose, in the sense that it's both a gesture to the general public, we're going to rebuild this chapel, or we're going to paint this chapel with the greatest living artist that was known, I guess. It's also a way of, you know, trying to make peace with your God. Oh, yeah. By saying that, yes, you know, I've, I've, I've been guilty of usury and lending money and exploiting people and, but I am also glorifying you and, you know. Yeah. In these paintings. In some ways it works, because it's still known as the Scrivene Chapel. Yeah. I mean, you know. So then he may have, yeah, restored, restored his reputation, for sure. Well, I guess most people would probably wouldn't have known his reputation, would just know him as the commissioning of this, of this work. So, maybe not restored, maybe obscured is a better way of putting it. I do think, again, when you just stop to look up close, and it is hard in the chapel, because, you know, you've got pews in the way, and some of them are higher up than others. And it is, it is very striking just how detailed, you know, some of the edging of the cloaks, the Roman soldier with his, you know, his golden, what would you call it, really, brocade, maybe? And just, just, you know, there is a fluidity. It's, it's slightly blocked. It's not perfect, but there's a fluidity between the characters. You feel that there's something going on. There's like energy around this kind of calm moment. Yeah, there's definitely jostling, wrestling. And I love those faces. Even, even though they're different, they are similar. The way they've painted, the way he's painted the faces on the, in the crowd, onto the right, especially. And they all, they all, they're active, aren't they? They're all engaged. They really are. Whereas Jesus is just saying, look, I know what you're doing. Yeah. And I'm ready for it. And of course, as we say, as we said, Judas regrets this moment almost immediately, but you can't, you can't take the Judas kiss back once it happens. No. Yeah. It is such a, those two facial, those facial expressions to me are such powerful facial expressions for such a, it's just so brilliant. And, you know, there's a broader, broader lesson, is that the right word? To be, to be learned from this, which is, you know, you might go past a relatively nondescript building and, or be, or see a sign outside that says inside we have some 13th century frescoes. And you might think, you know what, there's a cappuccino bar down the road. But actually. That might be the old me, Phil. Sometimes it's worth going in and having a look because Giotto is an example of what we as humans are capable of. No, there's no other animal on the planet that can do this. And I've seen, I've, I've seen no evidence as any other of the billions of planets. No. They have life, nevermind art. Yeah. So we're unique. And this has lasted, this is what, 800 years old, 700, 800 years old. It's quite staggering. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd love to go. Well, I used to be a person that always looked at the brown signs on the road. So if I had seen something like 13th century chapel, I think I would have gone actually. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm going to give myself a bit of credit here. I think I would have gone in. But now, since all these podcasts we've done, I wouldn't just rush about and get out for the cappuccino. In your notes, did you, I forget what else, the first reason that we went to film there was for our series, Great Artists. So I know that we looked at other, others, other works of his. Did you come across in your notes, if you've got anything about other works? His final chapel, final, there's a, his final, oh no, I can't find it. I've got hundreds of notes here, but didn't he do. What else is in your notes that we haven't? No, I've got so many, Phil. But we had, there was a chapel right at the end. Oh, isn't this the one? Oh, I do remember. Sorry. It's where he got buried. It was the bell, it was about the bell tower in Florence. He gets buried there. Oh, yes. Actually, isn't he engaged, isn't he involved in the first attempts to build, working on the cathedral? Yes, that's it. Yes, and he restored, he helps to restore it, but doesn't actually survive. He dies before it gets restored and he ends up getting buried there. Here we are. Hey, the bell tower in, in, in, in Florence. I know, because I'm reading your notes now. He's very wealthy. All his life paints frescoes. If he had money, he had a Giotto. He had eight children. Eight children. Yeah, eight children, yeah. And then in 1334, he's working on the cathedral bell tower, age 70, still enthusiastic. But did not live to see it finished. Well, it's not really finished for a long time. Right. But too old to climb the scaffold, hands too old to sculpt. So he ends up just getting buried there. 8th of January, 1337. So, yeah, almost 800 years ago, he dies. Yeah. And buried, buried in the cathedral. Yes, buried in the cathedral. He was that loved. He was absolutely adored. That's a place, Florence Cathedral. Well, yes. That's staggering. I think I went in there very briefly with two little tiny children. So my two were tiny. So I have to go back. Yeah. Because, you know, it's like when you've got two tiny children. There's a cycling tour of Italy coming on, surely. We can't do it then, can we? Well, we know. Can I have an electric bike, please, Phil? You did mention you just got a pair of cycling shorts, so. I didn't tell you I got a bike to go with it, though, did I? Well, there's 20 bikes in your house, I'm sure. There's hundreds of bikes in my house. Not all riding them, though. But definitely I'll go on an electric bike tour of Italy, because especially if I'm going to be trying to keep up with you and all the cameras and everything else. I'll get an electric one, please. Well, so this is Giotto's Kiss of Judas. And I definitely recommend having a look at going online and looking at images of the entire chapel or indeed getting hold of a copy or watching, downloading, streaming. Great Artists episode on Giotto. And your film's out. And Easter in Art. Yeah. So, yeah, Easter in Art, which we're hoping will be a perennial Easter film. OK. It does as well as The Nutcracker every Christmas. This is our alternative. Oh, God, you're going to be like. Easter in Art. Like Slade, Noddy Holder. I wish, I wish. Anyway, yeah, I can't in this context. No. Talk about money. Oh, God, no. It appeared to be greedy. No, no, no. You need to hand it back, quick. Because these pictures tell me what will happen to me. Watch out for the yellow cloak. Thank you for listening to the Painting of the Week podcast. For more information, please visit our website at 7th-art.com or contact us by emailing info at 7th-art.com. See you next time.