Everything that s happening continues to normalize violence Gov Whitmer condemns Trump pardons

So I don't think everything should be a five alarm fire. I mean even in the age of Trump I don't think that. But I also think sometimes we have to spend a little bit of time delving into the most egregious things he does. On Monday he bartered roughly 1,500 people convicted for their actions on January 6th, including 600 who engaged in violence. And he also commuted the sentences of 14 others. So that means all of them, even the most violent of the insurrectionists, are free. It means someone like David Dempsey, who prosecutors called political violence personified, who attacked officers with flagpoles, crutches, pepper spray, broken furniture, and his own hands and feet, is free. So is Daniel Rodriguez, who drove a stun gun into the neck of officer Michael Fanone. So is Christopher Gwaglin, who screamed at, pushed, punched, swatted, slapped, and choked police officers. And so is Andrew Taki, who assaulted officers with bear spray and a metal whip. Now in pardoning these people, and hundreds more like them, Trump sent a pretty clear message that there are no consequences. That if you commit a crime in his name, no matter how violent, it's not a crime. That political violence is okay. And that's exactly the message some of the worst offenders seem to have received loud and clear. I mean just listen to former Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio. We went through hell and I'm going to tell you it was worth it, because what we stood for and what those guys stood for was what we've been fighting for and what we saw yesterday on the inauguration page. Now it's our turn. Now it's our turn. I'm happy that the president's focusing not on retribution and focusing on success, but I will tell you that I'm not going to play by those rules. The people who did this, they need to feel the heat. I'm not going to play by those rules. It's very chilling. Listen to what Oath Keepers founder Stuart Rhodes said in the halls of the Capitol, no less. I didn't enter the Capitol. I didn't strike a police officer. None of my guys did either. We were railroaded for political purposes because of who we were, because of our identity, because we're Oath Keepers. That's why we were prosecutors. It was a conspiracy. We didn't hatch a plan. It was no plot to invade the Capitol. We didn't bring any weapons. It's just all kabuki theater to justify trying to prevent President Trump from being able to run again under the 14th Amendment. It's quite a revisionist statement of history there. No remorse, no regrets. Instead, it's just revenge and retribution. And listen to what some pardon January 6th riders and their families told my colleague Alex Wagner this week. If Trump comes out and says, this is an issue that, you know, I need you guys to come out for me. It may mean taking to the streets. Do you think that the people who deserved, you know, years or months or weeks in prison would do that again for him? I can't speak for everybody, but I can speak for myself. And the answer to that question would be, yes. Since he's not going to quit on the American people, I have no absolute right to quit on him. So I would show up. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again? Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man. No signs of stopping, which is, of course, chilling. But why would they stop when this was the response to the pardons from far too many Republicans in Congress just this week? The president's made a decision. We move forward. There are better days ahead of us. That's what we're excited about. We're not looking backwards. We're looking forward. What about those who assaulted police officers and then were pardoned by the president? I haven't seen it. I haven't gotten to the detail. What are your specific thoughts about President Trump's pardon? It's his authority, and he's using it. We're looking forward and beyond. I haven't seen the details, but I think a lot of those pardons were definitely well-deserved. I think the gift is that it's all behind us now. We can stop talking about it. This was literally an attack on the building they all work in, put them and many of their staff at risk. What we just heard there is what I would call obedience in advance. It is not just happening in Congress, as you just saw, but also among private sector leaders and also, yes, even in the media. If you're wondering how any society gets to a place where people don't speak out, where leaders are incentivized to continue suppressing rights and freedom of speech, this is how. Politicians refusing to speak out about something that is so completely indefensible, behaving like these actions are completely normal. Let's just all move forward. And they're refusing to speak out because they're afraid of Donald Trump. They're afraid for their own political futures. But this shouldn't even really be a political question at all. It's actually a moral question. It's about the very real, very scary prospect of political violence in the future, about the fear and the threat about what comes next, which even Lindsey Graham acknowledged this morning. I fear that you will get more violence. Parting the people who went into the Capitol and beat up a police officer violently, I think was a mistake because it seems to suggest that's an OK thing to do. Of course, it suggests it's an OK thing to do. Not only are these insurrectionists free, but they are emboldened and they clearly feel empowered. Just listen to them. See, if the lesson here is you can commit acts of violence in the name of Donald Trump and you'll get away with it, even be celebrated because of it. What's to stop anyone from doing this again in the future? Someone who unfortunately knows too much about the impacts of political violence is my next guest, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. She was the target of a kidnapping plot back in 2020 during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. And she described what that was like in her new book, Targeted for Young Adults, True Gretch. Here's what she said, I genuinely wanted to understand how people had gotten angry enough to actually want to kill me. But for the moment, I needed to focus not on the feelings of those who would harm me, but on my family. She goes on to say we carried on with our lives, trying not to think about whatever threats might be looming outside our four walls. Meanwhile, the plotters were becoming more brazen. In July, the men began training to storm a house and capture people inside. They built a replica, calling it a kill house and practice taking hostages. That same month, one was reported saying, snatch and grab man, grab the effing governor. Whitmer goes on to say nearly three years down the road, there's no doubt that the apparent kidnapping and murder plot changed me. I've always loved meeting people and mingling in big groups. But now when I walk into a party or event, I find myself scanning the room. I look for anything that seems off and take notes where the doors are. It's not that I live in fear, but there's a heightened awareness now that I didn't have before, not just as governor, but as a person, as a mom and as a wife. Joining me now is Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, a new young adult edition of her book, True Gretch, which I just read last week. It's so good. It's targeted for kids over 14 and older. I will tell you it comes out on Tuesday. I have so much I want to talk to you about the book, so much that struck me that I identified with. I just want to start where I ended there because there are very few people, fortunately, but unfortunately for you, who have been through and experienced the fear of political violence. And you speak about it with such a rawness in your book. And I just wanted to ask you, I mean, with the news this week, do you, I just gave my take on it, but do you fear this incentivizes some of these people to act again? How do you view it? I am concerned that everything that's happening continues to normalize violence against people who are political opponents, people who disagree with you. You know, when, whether the violence is targeted toward me, a Democratic governor, or it is targeted toward Nancy Pelosi's husband or Donald Trump himself, when he was on the stage in Pennsylvania, we have to call it out. We cannot let this become normal. And so I am concerned about it. And the book is geared toward talking to young people because we want to make sure that young people don't see this and live through this and think that this is normal and okay, because it's not. That's one of the things I loved about the book. You tell so many good stories. You clearly don't like bullies. I also don't like bullies. And I want to get to that. I want to ask you one more thing, because Trump also pardoned eight people accused in federal court in your home state of Michigan of blocking access to abortion clinics. You have been one of the most outspoken governors about protecting women's rights. What's your reaction to that? What is the message that you want women in your state to hear as they see that news? Well, not only have I been outspoken, but the people of Michigan have been outspoken on this when we amended our constitution to protect this right. And so as governor, my job is to make sure that everyone has access and that people are held accountable. If you try to get in the way of someone else exercising their constitutional rights, you are in the wrong. And so I do think that our efforts to make it easier for women to access everything from contraception to the ability to get an abortion is something that I'll continue to fight for and erect barriers to protect people who do. I'm sure many, many people are happy to hear that. And as you said, the people of Michigan have spoken. One of the things, as I mentioned, you kind of have lots of tactics for people to approach bullies. That's one of my themes that I took away from your book. One of the things that you talk about is the threat to withhold resources that you were experiencing and you had to fight back against to defend the people of Michigan, stand up for the people of Michigan during the height of COVID. We're a week into the Trump administration. We're seeing this a bit with funding for wildfires in California. There are going to be crises we deal with that you deal with as governor. Do you have any advice for Governor Newsom or for other governors who are going to have to navigate this? My colleagues don't need my advice, but what I will say is this, you know, whether it is dealing with a bully when you're in second grade or in college or in adulthood, these are muscles that unfortunately we'll have to use throughout our lives. And so telling young people about things that happened to me, whether it was a nickname that I got when I was in elementary school or one that my dad gave me because I'm so klutzy and I knocked out my front teeth and my nickname around the house is Gravity Gretchen. It is important to not let someone else define you, but to own your space, to define yourself. And sometimes the best way to deal with a bully is to take their sword and make it your shield. When I was called that woman from Michigan, we leaned into it and people, the Etsy community started making swag with that woman from Michigan. And to this day you could still buy it, but I think it's because we were able to say, okay, someone else isn't going to define me. I'm going to define me. And that's a lesson I hope young people take from this book and adults of all ages too. One of the issues I know you've been speaking out about, and I know you're thinking about in this regard is this threat of tariffs. And it sounds sometimes like an obscure issue to people, you know, like a tax, what does it even mean to me? But you've been talking about it in a very clear way in terms of how it would impact people in Michigan. What concerns you the most? What might people not understand? And what are you prepared to do about it? I'll say, start with this. You know, I am not opposed to all tariffs per se. They can serve an important purpose. Treating all of these countries, China, like Canada and Mexico, could have a real huge negative impact on the Michigan economy, as well as the U.S. economy. Jobs drive up the cost of goods, drive up the cost of energy and housing. And so that's why I'm glad to see the Trump administration moving slowly on this front, being hopefully, you know, looking at like a scalpel as opposed to a sledgehammer. Because when you say no to Canada, it means you're saying yes to China. And I know that's not what they want to do here. And they don't want to drive up costs for consumers. So we have cannot lose sight of the fact that our North American neighbors are crucial to our economy. And while I understand that there needs perhaps to be some negotiation on international agreements, tariffs could have a huge impact that would kill jobs, make things more expensive for consumers and hurt the Michigan and the U.S. economy.