VISITING THE ENGLISH WHISKY DISTILLERY

Andrew, lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for having us. You have the full display. It's quite a collection of spirits you've got here. Great whiskies. Obviously, the original and the smoky, we've seen before and we've tried. They're our core range that we always have going. Anything in a white cask is small batch. So we try and re-release about every 18 months. But it's normally limited to about four or six casks. Anything in red is single cask bottlings. Distillery only, or sometimes they're still around? No, distillery only. Don't do anyone else. So something to grab before we go. Yes. Okay, good. They're the really interesting ones. Fantastic. So are we going to be able to have a little tour of the distillery today? Absolutely. I'm really excited to see what you guys are doing. So family owned. Family owned. And you set it up with your dad, when was it? 2005 is when we agreed to do it. Okay. 2006, we were up and running with stills firing. I think we were very fortunate. But unlike watching most new stills start today, where there's fundraising and grant getting and committees and investors, we were very lucky to have, we already owned the land. Right. We had that forever. Okay. The river running through it, et cetera. We had our own building companies. We didn't need to go out for quotes. Okay. So when we finally agreed to do it in September, we had all the plans for this building with the planners by October, planning permission in January and we were building in March. Wow, okay. It was cool. Very quick. And we had the stills on later that year. So Andrew, obviously it's all on one floor, one room, very easily accessible. What was the thought process behind that for you? That was quite deliberate. We traditionally, a distillery would be broken down into a mashing shed and a fermenting shed and a distillery shed. Exactly. That's fine for working and probably better for working, but it's quite hard for the public to really understand what happens. The whole process. And you don't get the wow factor as well if it's all in different places. And we've been to have a look, we've got permission to go into a distillery called Glenbergie, which isn't open to the public. And they had done this on a far bigger scale. Always looked like they were going to open to the public, but they never have. And we just thought it was fantastic to see it all on one floor. For sure. And you can really show the public where the liquid goes, the process. And for our own team, it means one person can sit at a desk or, they don't get a desk here. Wander around the room. Wander around and keep an eye on everything rather than needing a person for each process. And what you're looking at is a one tonne mash tonne. So it holds one tonne of malted barley. And then really the size is defined by the spirit still and everything works backwards. So that's 1,800 litres, which at the time was the legal minimum size of a still. Okay. So we do one tonne a day of barley. And one tonne of barley should give us about 400 litres of pure alcohol, 100% alcohol. And what capacity are you running at currently? So we do about 180 tonnes a year. Everybody else works in litres of alcohol, but it doesn't really mean anything to the general public. One tonne of barley is a bit more visual, really. You can buy a bag, a one tonne bag. We do that 180 days. So we get five days a week for 36 weeks of the year. And then we try and have a shutdown period in the run up to Christmas where we can concentrate on bottling, clean downs, just sorting everything out. Does resting the stills have a part to play in that? Or is that not something you focus on? No, not really. We traditionally used to go four days a week and have Wednesday as clean day. Okay. But every time you stop the stilling, liquid cools down. Right. And then you want to heat it back up. And as gas prices keep creeping, it's better for us to go harder for a shorter period. I can't persuade my lot to go seven days a week yet, but one of the things to note, with a distillery of this size, it's quite unusual that it is still 100% manually operated. So 117 valves and levers, the spirit still, everything is manually done with hydrometers. When we specced it up to build it, it wasn't a great leap to automate it. But actually, if you're going to be family owned, making a bespoke small batch whiskey. You want to be hands-on with it. Well, I think you need skilled people to make it, not sit at a laptop and press a button. So it's quite a deliberate process, really. And we see, you know, just from week after week, different batches of barley just need tweaking a bit. And if you were putting it on a computer. If it was all automated, you wouldn't notice that. You'd just lose that. For sure. So we'll go and have a look. So Andrew, talk to me a little bit. I mean, it comes off the still. What strength? We average a finished average about 72%. Okay. And you fill into the cask then? 65, 68, depending on what we're doing. We started off at 63 and a half, like everybody. Right. We then went higher because it saved some space, obviously. Right. I think that is probably evaporating a bit fast. So we might bring it down a little bit. But these are the things that we play with just to see what happens. Well, this is it. And you'll continue playing for the rest of your career, no doubt. Absolutely. We are on our third chief distiller now, since we opened. It's not bad in 15 years. And it's amazing how you just constantly have, nobody can pass 100% of their knowledge onto the next person. And that changeover period, or just after the changeover period, it's just awesome for every distillery. But you have to go back and revisit so many things that have just been set in stone for 10 years. Yes. And you go, why are we doing that? Why are we doing that? And so, yeah, Chris has been with us for two years now. And you just start looking at things like, what strength should we cask at? Because there's no reason to do it at the strength we were doing it. It was a number we picked last time. So it's quite, it's a good thing, actually, to revisit all these little points over the years. And obviously, yourself and your dad set this up originally. How much input did the two of you have? And is there still sort of decisions that you made originally that are solidified, that won't change? Yes. What are they? I think everything changes over time. But in reality, some of the really core principles were getting this split, and getting stills that have to work in a certain length of time. We have, over time, extended our distilling period to 13, 14 hours. Okay. Because you get a cooler spirit. It changes what profiles you get in the spirit. And then you wake up and you go, well, that's no good. Because actually, we could never do a night shift. Right. You know, it's designed to work in 12 hours. It's got to work in 12 hours. So, you go back and look at other ways of changing temperatures and things. So, yeah, most of the things that were originally set out still happen, because you don't change this kit. Right. It doesn't get changed for a generation. No, of course. There are tweaks along the way, but in practice, the general principles stay the same for a generation or more. Our first distiller was a guy called Ian Henson, who was from Laphroaig. Legend. Yeah, absolutely legendary. And so, persuading him to come down here and get this place going was really cool. And after we'd been going a while, he persuaded father to allow him to make some peated whiskey. Right. Because, obviously, that's what he's good at. And I don't think father had much interest at all, and I certainly didn't. I was like, oh. But it is amazing how, over the years, your taste buds change. Yes. And the same goes with whiskey. And now, peated whiskey, I quite like it. There are still one or two that are just too iodiney, but the smoky ones, you suddenly are like, oh. And I don't know whether that's because I've spent all this time drinking whiskey, or because 15 years have passed and I've just got a different set of taste buds. It's great to hear that you do like your peated whiskies, though, I can say. The peated whiskey coming out of this place is what really sort of awoke me to how amazing this distillery is. That has been really quite a specific choice on making our peated whiskey. So, in simplistic terms, there appears to be two types of peat. You've got peat that's formed from seaside, seaweed peat, as I call it, and then you've got inland peat, which is moss and stuff that's all rotted down. And we try to be very specific. We want that inland peat, because it gives us a smoke, a bit like the smoke from burning leaves in your garden, that bonfire smoke. So when you drink our whiskey, you get smoke. You do not get tarmac, iodine, phenols. You don't get that. And that is because we don't particularly like that. But if you go to Islay, and they are famous and they are well-regarded, that peat is different. It is that seaweed peat that's giving you that iodine-y, tarmac-y. Different cresols in it. Yeah, absolutely. Totally different type of phenols. And the reason we've gone down ours is, one, I like it, and two, I think it is more accessible to other people. And the whole point of this was, originally, father said, we're going to make the very best whiskey in the world. There are no shortcuts. And then when he got asked about, oh, what cast are you going to use? What are you going to, what bar is it? No, there are no gimmicks. We're not trying to make something that's weird and wacky. We just want something that you want to share with your friends when they come to visit. Right. Well, I have to say, I think you're doing a great job of everything I've tried thus far. Cool. And the good thing about it as well is it's not middle of the road. No. You're not trying to be pleasing everyone. You can't. You're trying to create something really high quality. Yes. But that fits in here. So, Andrew, I can see the liquid has just started flowing in your spirit safe. Well, does that mean that it's time to maybe head across to the warehouse and do a little sampling or something like that? Leave them to get their work done and get out of the way. Let's go. So, in here, just to give you a... How many casts? A couple of thousand? Yes, I think you're nearly spot on, to be honest. But it's the majority in here are ex-Bourbon casks. So they came from Jim Beam. Yep. They're our preferred cask, really, overall. And we use that for the majority of whiskey maturation. They're a very consistent cask. Yes. And then this section is really our trial section. And we have every type of cask, from Moscatel and Saturn and Burgundy and Olorosso and Portuguese Cabernet Sauvignon. If I can find a cask, we're willing, we'll buy a few and see what it tastes like. And some work, some don't, but I think that is the secret of being good distillery. You've got your original and your smoky. You've got your single cask expressions, your small batch stuff. What can we expect moving forward from you guys? What are you looking at? I mean, obviously you really carefully consider each and every release that you're doing. So is there anything that you can share with us that might be upcoming? So we have, on top of what you talked about, we have another brand, the Norfolk, which does grain whiskeys. Okay. They're a really small batch and we have a lot of fun with those. And they come out sort of once, twice a year. And then on the English whiskey side, the English just does single malt whiskeys as a brand. Yeah, we're getting older. I think later this year we have got, so we used to have a range called the Private Founders, Founders Private Cellar. Okay. Which my father, when something was, you'd taste a series of casks and you'd go, oh, those 18 Oloroso casks, 17 all have a similar nature. Right. One is completely weird. Yes. And he would just take that and they'd go, right, that's my private cellar. So, and to a degree, I've kept that going. I don't need to do as much as he did because there's a lot of family casks. And so those oddities, which also obviously got some of the oldest casks, we are tending to release now. We haven't done any Founders Private Cellar for years. And so we are looking to bring that back this autumn and the first bottling will be, yeah, worth keeping your eyes open for. Okay. Very exciting. Very exciting stuff. So. Cool. Do you want to go and have a taste? Well, yeah. Let's go and give some a try. I'd love to. So this is bottle two. Lovely. Oh, that smell. It never really gets old, does it? In here is predominantly ASB casks. You can see there's quite a bit of virgin casks as well. Okay. And then here, we're going to taste a few bits and pieces. Cool. What are we going to go for? So what we've got is, I will just have to check on the side of the cask, but we'll start obviously with an unpeated. So we've got a refill in here. So this is a refill. It was distilled in 2014. It was this one. Okay. So seven going on eight years old, you say unpeated. Unpeated. Yeah. So there she goes. Thank you very much. Oh, that's good. So we fill usually at 68 and a half. So quite high. Okay. So that's going to be probably at that age, I would say still way up in the 60s. So you're going to be looking at 63, 64 percentage, something like that. This is what I was thinking, because Andrew was saying that you're filling at 68, 69 sort of percent. There's no nose prickle on that, at all. No, quite often you'll get that. You really wouldn't think that it's at that sort of age. You could jump in here, you wouldn't get any nose prickle. So light and the vanillas and the fudges and that bourbon-y sort of, you know, really comes through. So I don't know your unpeated spirit as well. Right. I think purely because when I tried your peated spirit. It was the Gulliver's, wasn't it, that you tried? I think it was the first one that I tried. I just fell in love with it. And then I kept hunting out the peated. Yeah. But the... So our whole idea when James first started was that the flavour of whisky he wanted to actually produce, or spirit he wanted to produce, was accessible. That was his whole thing. He wanted it to be accessible. He wanted it that really, that he could sit down and him and his mates could sit down and everybody would enjoy it. And I think that's where we've landed really well. We sit so well in ASB and in bourbon casks. I think it just really, really rounds it off. And at that sort of age, I think it's... This is what I can't get over. Seven, eight years old. And that is a really well matured whisky. And the alcohol comes through on the palate. But again, it's not, you know, punching you in the face in an unpleasant way. Yeah. You've got that rich spice coming through. Beautiful floral notes. Then once you get a tiny bit of water in there, it just opens up like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunately, we've got a lot of whisky, but... No water. Terrible. But that's life, innit? No, that's all right. And so we've got another two casks that I think around here that we could try. I'm not too sure if it's that one. One, two, one. Yeah, so that's one page. So we'll give this one a whirl as well. There we go. It's funny because people think of Norfolk. Well, I certainly, I think of Norfolk and I think of the Norfolk Broads. Yes, me too. I don't think of whisky. I certainly don't think of whisky that is this good. Do you know? I'm going to have to start coming to Norfolk a lot more regularly now, I think. Exactly. Maybe that's what you sail on, on the broads. You never know. So we've got a slight different beast here. This one, age-wise, is 2015. It's a refill ex-bourbon. Okay. But it spent the first year of its life in a virgin cask. I was going to say, it looks quite colourful. That's where your colours come from, on it. But I always think it just gives it, we do that quite often, and that just gives it that. Just a year or two in virgin? Yeah, just a year to start with. We sort of, I always think, we were talking about the other week, that we do, sort of like do the opposite to what a lot of people do. A lot of people finish in, like do it in bourbon for X amount of years and then finish it in a wine or a virgin or something like that. And you think a starting beer is the way to go. Yeah, we start it and then let the bourbon really just gradually mellow it out. And just get that robustness to begin with and then just mellow it out over time. And it's amazing because the difference in colour as well, and obviously colour has a lot to say for our smell. What we think we're going to. Correct, you know, the smell and the look of something definitely affects our perception. I do think it gives it a bit more roundness in the colour. It's again, softer again and rounder. So you're talking seven years old on that one. I can't remember the month. So the month was, so it was actually December 15. So not even the seven. Yeah. Wow, the spice really comes through on that. That's beautiful. A year in virgin oak. A year in virgin oak, yeah, yeah. The difference, and then matured exactly the same way. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So this is a refill, that's a refill. The difference is phenomenal. The depth on the, I mean, the depth is there on both of them but this is much more floral. This is rich and spicy and. It's amazing what a year in a virgin oak can do. Really, and that starting period is very interesting. Can't say I've heard of anyone else doing that, really. Yeah, we do quite a few things. So it just really, it just gives that. What have you found to be the most successful? Do you think virgin oak's the way to go? Definitely, yeah, I do. I'm not, I wouldn't say, I'm not a bigger fan of really small casks and things like that because I just think it imparts too quickly. It can overwrite the spirit, I think. And the thing is, I think that what you're always trying to do is get that balance. You want your distillery character and you want the cask. But you don't want one to over-influence the other. You want that fine balance between the two. No, there's got to be balance between them. No, absolutely. I think down here somewhere, I've got something a little bit different. Again. So what have we got? So 197. Here we go. What's this one now? So, going on to a bit of peated. Okay, this is what I'm here for. But this is actually a little bit different peated. I don't think you'll have had this before from us, anyway. So this is from 2011. Okay. So it's quite, it's a bit older. This is one of your older whiskies then. It's triple distilled and peated. So the final level on there is I think 60, or was 60. I always think peated. This is what I was going to ask. Yeah, so the PPH is, sorry, PPM is 60 before going in. Yeah. So it's, well, it's 60, the grain. The grain, yeah. Which I always think PPM gives you a guide, but it depends what happens with the distillation. And a triple distillation versus double distillation must wipe out a lot of those things, right? Yeah, it does. But what I usually find, I've not tasted that one yet, actually, but what I usually find with our triple distilled peated ones, which we do literally only about half a dozen casts a year of or something like that. So you don't get so much of it on the nose, but then it builds slightly on the palate. And every time that you go back into it, you're getting a little bit more and a little bit more. And again, that's going to be over 60%. And that's going to be around the 60, 62% mark-ish. But then it builds lovely. You wouldn't know it. Yeah. 60%, it goes down like, oh, like a dream. That is the peat I love. I think for us, no, not for us, for my personal palate, I love peat. And I think that to around about the eight to 10 years old, our peated is- Sweet spot. I think it's absolutely bang on. I really, really do. And some of them ones that we've got in there are like about 62, 63 PPM, and they really, really shine. And they've got a little bit of brininess on the back end of them, that sort of thing, which is what I really love. But none of the dryness, you've still got that sweet distillery character coming through. You really do, a hundred percent. Where'd you get your peat from? So all our malting is done at Crisps, Fakingham, which is literally 20 minutes up the road. Unfortunately, they don't have a peating plant, so that's actually done at Port Dungus, I think it is, in Scotland, which belongs to them. And so that's where it's actually peated and then sent back down here. Okay. So Scottish mainland peat? Yes, yeah. So it's all mainland. Do you like him? This is my favorite. Yeah. Which isn't surprising because I came- But the triple distil definitely adds another layer. What do you think the chances of me swindling my way into one of these triple distilled peated casks are? We'll go and have a look and- We'll have a little chat? Commercials and that sort of thing and see if it all fits. Well, thank you for considering us, Mike. No problem. That's all right. You're a good man. Great to see you. Lovely to see you too, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just back from a wonderful tasting with Mike, who, by the way, is a great brand ambassador and a fantastic salesman. Wow. Some really interesting whiskeys. I have to say, the standout to me was the peated, but triple distilled. It's got this just, this beautiful lightness to it, but there's depth and- It has, I think, the triple distilled. If you're going to drink peated, to put it with a triple, yeah, to get it in a triple distilled whiskey where, well, the smoke shines, doesn't it? It shines through, it really does. There's nothing to hide it at all. No. We have done, traditionally, a triple distilled run of both each year, most years, probably. Okay. And I think we've released a couple of times, but I'm a bit of a hoarder. Oh, really? It's just like, oh, I'll just leave it there for a little bit longer. You're exactly the same as me. Yeah, it keeps getting better, so just keep leaving it for- It's, and there will come a point, and that's where we really have to be aware where it won't get any better, I don't think. Right. We always have this discussion with Ian, you know, every time at Le Freud, there's no point spending a load of money buying a 20-year-old Le Freud when you're buying it for the peat, because the peat diminishes every year. If you want a real mouthful of Le Freud, you should buy an eight-year-old. Yes. You know, that is what he's making. That's what he wants you to taste, not something that's only got half the peat left 20 years later. So, yeah, I think peated whiskey probably doesn't want to be too old. You want all the bang that the distiller gave you. I personally couldn't agree more. Absolutely. And I think the ones that we were trying were sort of seven, eight, and then I think we tried a 10-year-old. Absolutely perfect. Absolutely stunning. Really good. And what I love about you guys is you're not in a rush to release anything that's not ready. I was saying that to Mike, you know, you really are putting in that time. Yeah, well, it's, where have we got to? I mean, we occasionally will bring out an older one, and the founders we were discussing earlier, this autumn, we'll bring out a 15-year-old one, which will be England. It'll be the oldest whiskey that's been publicly released in England. I know there is a bottle or two older, but in reality, for general public consumption. 15 years old? Wow, okay. That's very exciting. Well, I think that sort of makes English whiskey, not just English Whiskey Co., but English whiskey as a whole sector. We've grown up now. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it puts it into perspective, doesn't it? I mean, I was thin and had hair. Picture of you on the bottle, yeah? In my youth. Well, I mean, I think it's amazing standing here in front of all the releases that you've done thus far. It must be very sort of, it must be really lovely for you to be able to stand in front of this and see where you've come from. It's lovely to see some of the original ones that father and I did on a Word document and printed out. Yeah, it's just, we've got a bit more professional and smarter, but ultimately, same care on the inside of the bottle. Absolutely, yeah, which is what it all counts down to. And so the 15-year-old that you're releasing, I mean, can you tell us a little bit? Is this the whiskey that you were trying to keep quiet from me? Yeah, pretty much. 20, 30 minutes ago? I can't keep secrets. You can't keep a secret from anything, okay. So those, so the beautiful, the bespoke Demi-Muid casks, one of those we put a load of whiskey in. And so is that Sherried? Is that? There is, it started off life in a bourbon cask. Okay. Deliberately stayed there for quite a long time while you think about what we're gonna do with it. And then it's ended up in the Demi-Muid. Really, we put a load of liquid in there and they're all different ages for very long terms. Yes. But then we were tasting one the other day and went, oh my God, it's really nice. So out it comes again. Fantastic. And those casks were medium toasted and medium charred, but they hadn't held anything before. Okay. So yeah, it's a bit of European oak. They will have, it'll surprise you when it comes out. I can see the excitement in your eyes, to be honest. I'm not giving too much away, but it's, yeah, it'll be worth hunting down come the autumn. I'm already getting a little bit thirsty, to be honest. All right, 15-year-old to look out for. 15-year-old, yes. Okay, fantastic. Well, I tell you what, actually, what we'll do is we'll keep this back. So when you guys are finally seeing this at home, the 15-year-old will have been released. I'll tell you what day. Okay, we'll keep our eyes peeled. Andrew, thank you so much for having us. You better enjoy. You've got an absolutely amazing distillery. Really looking forward to watching you grow and hopefully maybe even getting a cask under our own brand. It would be such a pleasure. So thank you for having us and all the best of luck moving forward. Thank you very much. Take care.