Behind The Canvas - S02E05 - Talas

Kid in a candy store, pig in mud. Well, if you're an artist, there's no more magical place than an art supply store. But aside from just having all of your favorite things, it's the knowledge and expertise contained within that makes those things special. I'm Julian Baumgartner. As a fine art conservator over the past two decades working to preserve artworks, I've been fortunate enough to meet and work with some of the most talented, driven, and interesting people in the arts. And now I wanna take you into their worlds to meet them, hear their stories, and share their passions. So join me as we go Behind the Canvas. For over 65 years, TALIS in New York has been catering to the needs of a most demanding clientele. From conservators like myself to art students and professional artists, TALIS has searched the world for the finest materials and tools, curating a selection that not only enables the creation of masterpieces, but their preservation as well. Jill? Oh, hey, Julian. Hi. Hey, nice to meet you. It's great to finally put a face to the name. You know, being here at TALIS is kind of, it's really special for me because as a fine art student, I would order from, I think, your parents, right? Yeah. Yeah, and it was really special to get these really gorgeous materials and then to just destroy them because that's what I did as a student. I went to school not too far from here in Purchase, and I've been ordering forever. I've never actually been here. Is this, have you guys always been here in this location? So we've actually always moved around the city. We've always moved with the artists as the artists sort of move. So we started off in Soho, right next to Dean and DeLuca on Broadway for a number of years, and then we moved to Flatiron, right on the cusp of Chelsea, and we were there for another five or six years, and then we moved out to Brooklyn in 2009, and that's been our home ever since. Okay, and so traveling with the artists, was this by design or just happenstance? By chance. Yeah. We just kept getting displaced with the artists as they moved. Displaced. Well, I'd like to think it's more of a symbiotic relationship. I know the conservation community specifically is so dependent on TALIS for so many things that I guess if you hadn't moved with them, I don't know that the artists would be able to do what they do. Absolutely, and every move gave us additional opportunities. So in this building now, we operate out of the entire building, so it's allowed us to have a lot more manufacturing capabilities and to really expand our offerings. Offer more materials, more supplies. Yep. You said fabrication and stuff? Yep, we do a fair amount of fabrication as well. So archival storage and box making is a new thing as of maybe the last 12 or 13 years. Oh, okay. And we do that all in-house right here in Brooklyn. Oh, that's really cool. Now, obviously coming here is really cool for me, but I'm here to pick up an order that I place. So first and foremost, I want to get that out of the way, get my goods so I don't forget. So where is my stuff? Right here. That's paper? Yes, that is paper. So we're gonna make you pick your order today. Yes, we're gonna put you to work. I have to get my own order, okay. All right, do I get a bin or an apron or a push card or something? All of the above. All right, so let's come over here. So this is my order and it's all here, but how do we get it from here into my pocket? Great question. So we're gonna take our scanner. Here you go. I'm gonna take this thing? Yes, you are. Okay, what do I do with this? And you're gonna take the little scan button here. You're gonna take it onto your order number. And I'm just gonna scan it? And you're gonna scan it. Oh, look at that. All my stuff is there. There you go, all in red. Red is bad. Red means it still needs to be picked. All right, so we gotta turn it green? Yeah, exactly. All right, so where do we go for my rabbit skin glue? Okay, well, the number there for the suggested bin is AA13E, so we're gonna go find AA. All right, AA13E. So this is pretty complicated. Looks pretty technologically advanced. I mean, isn't there an easier way to do it? Yes, but we stock about 10,000 SKUs here. 10,000 products here. And I'm not sure how many bins, but too many to keep track of. All right, so I get it. So you have a lot of stuff to keep track of. So we have a system in place here. You have a system. And we all know that systems make easy work of hard work. Exactly. Okay, so AA13E. We've got AA19, 16, 15. Okay, so 13. Okay, rabbit skin glue. There we go. Success. Okay, cool. All right. So now you have to scan your bin to make sure we're picking it from the correct bin. This guy? That guy right there. And there. Now if you scroll down to the bottom, you'll see you have a green item. All right, so this is super technologically advanced. It makes sure that I can't actually pull the wrong thing. I can't mess up the inventory with 10,000 SKUs, with 10,000 items, all of which are very similar. I mean, these are just bags and bags of powders and stuff. I could see how this would get really complicated. Very confusing, very quick. So this system helps ensure that you get the right product that you ordered. So even this device is Julian proof. I get it. So what's on the list next? Adhesive film. AA24. So I think that's this way? This way. All right. Okay, so AA24D. That's right there. Scan one of these guys. Success. Bin. Okay, and then one. Enter. Well, that was much easier. Okay, I get the hang of it. You're getting it. Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna be on payroll soon. 10,000 SKUs, why so many? It just seems ridiculous. Because conservators like you have a lot of varying opinions and needs. So rather than selling one type of adhesive, we have to have 10 different varieties that essentially do the same thing, but are just a little bit different. Right, right, right. Yeah, we are a picky bunch. But to some degree, that really does matter because not every product is right for the situation. And having a resource where we can get specifically what we need, even if it's really esoteric, makes all the difference when we're working on really important paintings, really valuable paintings. We just can't accept what the local hardware store has. We have to go to a specialist. Absolutely, and that's really where we excel, where we might sell 10 different types of wheat starch sort of equivalents, but a conservator will come to us and say, we need this one with this one extra molecular unit longer or this different. And in order for me to buy it, I need to buy 500 pounds of it. And obviously, I simply can't do that because I only need a pound. Yeah, and that's something I've run across where I've found a material that I need and I've contacted the wholesaler, which is, A, in and of itself, incredibly difficult to cold call a manufacturer and say, hi, I'd like to buy something, but I need a pound. And then they tell me, well, you need to order a ton. And then I'm left with no material and no avenue for pursuing the project. So I'm guessing that is something that you do here. You step in and buy the ton or the 1,000 pounds so that I can buy a pound. Absolutely, and that's where those plastic bags that you have over here come into place, where we'll take that 1,000 pound bundle and we'll break it down into half pound, one pound, five pound usable units for our customers. Okay, so this doesn't just come from a manufacturer in this convenient little pouch ready to go. You guys have to do a little work to get it here. Okay, so next is AB15C, I guess let's go. Yeah, before we go there, let's go and put these in a bin. Oh, you're not gonna make me carry all my stuff? No, so right here, we can pick a bin where we wanna start consolidating these materials. So any bin, yep, that's perfect. All right, so rabbit skin glue, which I just pulled, is a pretty simple, pretty basic material. It's been around forever, but I'd imagine that some of the stuff on these shelves, some of the 10,000 SKUs you have are not so simple and basic. Absolutely, and usually we come about those from customer recommendations where they'll be doing research or they'll have a specific need and they'll come to us with this requirement. Really, so somebody can call you up and say, hey, I need this really esoteric, super specialty product, but I don't know where to find it or I don't wanna buy 5,000 pounds of it, help me out and you will step in and help out? Oftentimes, yes, if we believe that there are other esoteric needs for that outside of your one specific one, then we'll definitely. So I can't call you up and ask for some unobtainium product and you'll just send it to me? Maybe, never say never, but. Well, that's cool, so do you find that it goes both ways, that you guys often are advising people of products that they could use or should use? Definitely, we get those calls every day in terms of what's the best material for whatever the specific application is. And even conservators will be humble enough to ask? Even conservators sometimes, I won't name names, but. No, I mean, it's really good for artists to have resources where they can find information and then find products. Speaking of which, we are headed over to AB 15C. Okay, I see AB, let's go. Working my way through the maze-like aisles filled with materials and tools, I can see and feel all the possibilities contained within each bin. And for me, it really is like being a kid in a candy store. All right, Jill, so you know I'm seeing a lot of Talus-branded stuff, in fact, a ton of stuff. You guys don't make this stuff here, right? Like, you don't make this solution. We don't, we dispense it into these containers, and these containers have gone through a lot of iterations over the years, depending on what sort of feedback we're getting from customers. Yeah, I noticed, like, this container, I recognize this, because I have these in my studio, but I used to buy this, and there was no handle. And there was nothing wrong with it, except when my hands were wet, I couldn't grab it and I'd spill it and drop it. So is this something that, like, in the Talus brain trust you guys figured out, or were picky customers like me calling and complaining? Absolutely, we got a lot of feedback from customers that particularly the gallon-sized containers were very difficult to pour, and you would end up with a big mess. So we started introducing these containers with handles, which allow for a lot neater sort of application to be able to dispense the material. So again, kind of a two-way feedback loop between the end user and you guys who are taking the material and making it available to the end user. And also, I noticed, like, this is recyclable, which I appreciate. I'm trying to be more sustainable in my studio. Absolutely, that's really important to us. And in fact, our entire building now runs off of solar panels. So we have zero electrical bills these days. Well, my building also has solar, so I feel like kindred spirit here. This is great. So we have better products, better containers, and by a business that cares a little bit about the environment, the fans. All right, well, that seemed pretty easy. I've got my scanner and my bin. Wasn't all that difficult. Well, that's because we did all the hard work for you. Everything here is pre-packaged and ready to go. You just have to pull it off the shelf. Yeah, that was nice. Pretty easy when it's all ready to go. Well, not for the fun part. Oh, Kozo, I love this paper. You do know the horrible, no good, very bad things I do with Kozo in my studio. Yeah, maybe we should take this and swap it out for something else. Something cheaper? Something more disposable? Something a little bit more utilitarian, yeah. No, but I mean, we do need the best products, even if we do destroy them. And sometimes using a lesser quality material is just gonna compromise the process. So unfortunately, I have to have this really beautiful paper and ruin it. Let's do it. All right, so all the things that I've grabbed so far have been pre-packaged by you guys. This is not pre-packaged. How come? Why is it just in these big, big flat files? Because customers will order different quantities. So sometimes they'll order one of them, five of them, 10 of them. Sometimes it's a full package. And then the way that they're packaged is all unique to the order. So sometimes it'll be rolled. Sometimes it'll be flat. So why would it be rolled or flat? What would make the difference? Depends on the properties of the papers, the types of items on the order, and the quantity. So different papers have different requirements for shipping, or is it just- It depends on the weight and how easily rolled they are. We find that usually rolled papers actually do better in transit because flat packages tend to get bent, folded like a cracker. Oh, I know. But obviously we don't want to compromise the papers themselves. So if they're too heavy, they don't really lend themselves to folding. So we want to make sure that those ones are always shipped flat, regardless of the quantity, even if it's just one sheet. But something like this, even at a larger quantity, can be rolled. But it sort of depends on the other items that are on the order with it. Okay, so again, your knowledge of the materials, the specific paper is translated into how it's packaged and how the customer receives it, which I'm guessing impacts how they're able to use it. Obviously, if a paper gets destroyed in transit, they can't use it. Absolutely, and sometimes customers do have very specific requirements. And even though it is one piece of Japanese paper, they will request that it ships flat. And if that's their request, we will absolutely ship it to them flat. Whatever they want, they get, right? Well, I mean, I certainly appreciate it every time I get a package from Talas. Actually, in the studio, my assistant fights me to open up the packages when we order papers because it's such a lovely experience to open them up and see no creases, no folds, no tears. You know, there are probably places that I could order some of this stuff and maybe save a little bit, but if it comes to me and it's not usable, it's not a savings. It's worth nothing. Yeah, right. So this is an easy one. Why? Because it's just a thicker paper? It's a thicker paper. This one here is a 50 gram paper. So believe it or not, that's actually quite a substantial paper. Oh yeah, this is really heavy duty. Now we're gonna get into the, I believe the Tengu Shoten is about a five gram paper. Five grams, so that's really lightweight. Very lightweight. Okay, and being more lightweight, it makes it more fragile. Absolutely. More prone to tearing and stuff. And just maneuvering, it's really hard to handle. Okay. But you'll see here how absolutely fine it is. This is like dust. And how do you even get it out of here without it tearing? Usually this paper is only sold five sheets at a time, so it's a little bit easier to handle. Here, just to make it super difficult, we're just gonna pull one. You have to make sure that you're pulling it. Wow. That is- It floats. It's like nothing. Okay, so I'm already kinking it and creasing it, which is, I mean for- So here's when you can actually almost use your breath to move it. Just as you turn your fan off in your studio when you're using it, you can use your breath. That's cool. And obviously kinking it and creasing it. For this paper, it's actually okay. It's using, most people will use it for conservation purposes. So like you, it might be for a relining or something. It's really, and because it is so soft, you're not really gonna crease it. It's not like a hard crease, like in a watercolor paper where it would be. All right, well that, I mean, you made that look really easy, but I think I ordered two. Uh-oh. It's me again? Yep, you're up. I don't like this. All right, so. Very carefully, you have to feel sort of the tension in the paper. Yeah, like I can, like it's just on the edge of wanting to tear. Is this one of those, I break it, I buy it? Well, you've already bought it, so. So I break it and I just get a broken piece of paper? Exactly. Sometimes customers are curious why we have a five-sheet minimum, and this is generally why. It's not because they're gonna open it up and sneeze and lose a sheet right away? Exactly, they're very difficult to handle some of these. Okay, so then this gets rolled up? Absolutely, but before we do that, we're gonna cut some book cloth. Okay. So here, we'll just move this over here. Yeah, see that, even just moving it. Yep, there you go. I'm gonna start asking for paid vacation time. And let's move your bin as well, so we have some clear space, because this is actually the gutter where we're gonna cut our fabric into. Okay, so the big table comes in handy, and which one are we pulling? This one? All right. Here we go. So, yep, so now what we're gonna do is you wanna take it with the opening on this side. It's just rolling the other way. So here, you'll see, we actually have yard markers. So this is your one-yard marker, your two-yard marker, and then your three-yard marker is over here. Right, and I have just a yard of it. So just about even with this? Yep, exactly. It's hand-cut, so it's never gonna be exactly perfect. And then this, is this big channel is where we're going? Exactly, so that's where you're actually, you'll take your scissor and cut it in the groove. Oh, that's clever, I like that. Seems like a lot of these tricks have been learned over time. And you should just catch it, yep. If I get the angle, I'm failing miserably. So this tattered edge probably isn't good enough to send to a customer, huh? Probably not, if you're okay with it. I'm horribly embarrassed, but I'll take it. All right. Do you want me to show you one? Yeah, yeah. Where I can just light it? Absolutely. Wait a minute, those are different scissors. You gave me the duds? I see how it is. Same size. I see how it is. Same size. All right, all right. Give the new guy the dull scissors and you get the good ones, fine. A wise man once told me that it's not about the tools, it's about the user. Ain't that the truth? All right, so we've got all the fabric and the paper and now we're just gonna stack it and roll it, right? Exactly, so we're gonna take our tube and then roll it on there. Oh, it goes on tube? Yeah, it's gonna go on a tube. Oh, this tube? Yep, that tube right there. So it's actually gonna go this way. This is a 40-inch tube, so it's meant for one yard of material. What we're gonna do first is we're gonna add a lead sheet onto it to make sure that your fabric and materials don't slide on the tube when it's shipping. Oh, okay. Why does that matter? Because if it slides and it goes off to the edge, then it might crush. And this is particularly important when you're dealing with either the book cloths or sometimes also different paper. So if it's a watercolor paper or a printmaking paper, if it gets any edge damage, that's a real big issue for our companies. All right, so again, like these small little things that the end user, often me, doesn't even think of make a pretty big impact on the quality of the product and when it gets to me. Absolutely, we wanna make sure that all this material stays in the center of the tube. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna take that, line that up, and now you can start rolling. These guys go in here? It depends on your sort of approach. You can do either or. You can start rolling this one and then add those ones in, or you can add them in right now. Sometimes it's depending on how delicate it is. If you were just doing this and a Japanese paper like that, we might actually tie it off first because sometimes if it's a heavier weight material, it might put too much tension on the paper. Really, so just the order of the papers together can affect how they handle transit. Absolutely, and we always consider that when we're wrapping these materials. That seems impressively specific. Absolutely. Almost to the point of neurotic, if I may say so. Some may say that, but. Okay, so another paper, and then now the kozo? Now we'll add that in. Yep, make sure that there's no dents in the corners. Everything is running flat. And if there were, you guys would cut it off? And this, you wanna be really careful here because this is where you can end up with some wrinkles, particularly if the papers are stacked. I see, right. So again, just being really careful, really precise. All right. There we go. Now what we're gonna do is we're gonna take another sheet of paper. We wanna protect the whole thing. So what we'll do here is if you take the tube, sort of line it up, let's measure it out. Tear off some paper. Got it, so just an outer. Just an outer layer. This is how the pros do it? Exactly, exactly. Just as smoothly. Well, that was actually pretty simple, less painful than I thought. No thanks to me. You guys have a really well-oiled system here. So paper and bin all ready to go, just down to shipping, and then that's it, right? Nope, we picked our Mylar envelopes before, and now we have to pick our archival box for them to go inside of. The boxes. So where are they? They are downstairs, and Aaron will be able to help you out down there. So that's where I'm headed? That's where you're heading. All right. My next stop is the heart of Talus's manufacturing, where archival storage used around the world by museums and institutions begins life as humble sheets of acid-free board, meticulously transformed for the most demanding of recipients. Aaron? Hey, Julian, nice to meet you. Aaron, nice to meet you. Jill sent me downstairs with my Mylars for my box, so I'm here to pick up my box. Okay, all right. Well, here you are. We got all the materials and the tools for you to make your box and get started. You're gonna make me make a box? I gotta pick my own order, I gotta roll my own paper, and I gotta now make my own box? No, no. Okay, so you're not really gonna make me make my own box? Not if you don't want to. I would prefer not to. Okay, all right, cool. So where does my box come from? So it comes like this, and it comes from a machine over there where we make them digitally and on a great computer-driven machine. Right, and I'm guessing that's because you being sequestered down here for hours on end, cutting boxes by hand with a blade and a bowling folder isn't very efficient. Yeah, probably not. It's also probably not very accurate. It's not accurate, it's slow, it's inefficient, and it's just archaic. Yeah, let's be honest, it's archaic. You have the technology to make a really, really gorgeous-looking box. So these get cut on your machine, and then I'm guessing the machine doesn't fold them. You gotta- No, we ship them flat, which is great because then they transport with less volume and then they get assembled by the end user. And they don't get crushed in transit. Exactly, right, yeah. Okay, so assembling a box is easy? Yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of a learning curve to it, but it is pretty easy. Got it. Well, it's easy when everything is cut square and precise, which I'm guessing if I had to do this by hand, we'd be here all night and it wouldn't be so accurate. That's right, yeah. All right, so this, I mean, for a preservationist or really for anybody that wants to keep something, photographs, mementos, in an acid-free archival box, this is the fastest, easiest way to do that. Exactly, yep. Look at that. There we go. You got your Mylar. Yeah, right, so I can keep labels and documents in here. That's right. These are custom cut to fit whatever I want. Absolutely. And then the box is archival, acid-free, and it will keep it from deteriorating, keep it safe, and keep it protected. That's right, yep. So it's a beautiful archival box for the Mylar sleeves that you got from upstairs. And a really nice package that you can use for storing all your valuables. I could probably put paintings in here. How big can you make these things? Any size you want. Any size I want. I think our largest box so far is 15 feet long. 15 feet long, a box. A box. What do you put in a box 15 feet long? I mean, that was a rolled photograph, so there were custom-made archival tubes that were 15 feet long and gigantic photos that got rolled and stored in a gigantic 15-long-foot box. That is wild. So, but making them on CNC, being able to make something custom for the customer, it's not just like you have 10 sizes and they have to choose and then like, oh, well, it's eight by 10, I needed nine and three quarters by 10 and an eighth. Sure. You'll make that specific box. Yeah, I mean, we have a range of stock boxes that are available for sale on our website that we take the guesswork out of for customers that just want a simple, easy click of a button purchase on our website, but then there is the other side of it where we can do anything custom to any size, design, you know, with different types of just enhancements or changes, you know, particular to our project. So I can change the opening. I can change the depth. I can, all of that stuff is customized. Yeah, for sure. And that's kind of carrying over what Jill was telling me upstairs about like the bags that you guys designed for powders and the jars with the little handles, really trying to make the experience of the end user as seamless and flawless as possible so that they can focus on what's important, not cutting and building their own boxes, but doing the preservation or, you know, not measuring out glues and spilling them, just getting to the work that they need to do. Exactly, right. Yeah, really focusing on things that bring value and utilize one's skills and, you know, things to the most of their ability. Well, that is really cool. Well, thank you for this gorgeous box. I'm glad that I don't have any paper cuts. This is really fantastic. I got to get me one of these machines. So from these really cool, super custom boxes to like a gajillion really beautiful papers, all of those fabrics, there's tons of tools upstairs. Talos really goes above and beyond to make sure that we artists, preservationists, conservators get what we need, which is really amazing. Yeah, I mean, we really pride ourselves on making the rare and unusual products available in ways that people expect to buy things online today. You know, coming to their door super fast and with a click of a button, you know, in their pajamas late at night. And, you know, it's also about providing certain types of materials that are available in otherwise very, very large and unobtainable quantities for our customers and making them available and, you know, right size for the way that they really, you know, use them on a daily basis. Yeah, because there are some resins that I buy from you that if I wanted to source myself, I need to buy 500 pounds and I would never live long enough. Exactly. And I couldn't afford to buy them. Right, or they're going to expire in that time or things happen. And yeah, so we step in and, you know, take on those types of quantities and repackage them and make them available in ways that our, you know, customers really can consume them properly. Yeah, and so without Talas, that whole world of materials disappears for me and for other artists. Yeah, yeah. Kind of makes you think. Every masterpiece begins life as a selection of materials and tools chosen by the artist deliberately, meticulously, and with care. And whether it's paper as light as air, exotic adhesives, or simply the right tool for the job, Talas is deliberate, meticulous, and always filled with care.