Doug King & Frank Lampard Discussion | Premier League Promotion, Stadium Purchase, Transfer Windows

You look at the 18 months then. It was always about promotion, right? I feared, looking back, I should have made a call that was different. What do you make of that first meeting? The best thing I remember feeling was that these boys want to learn. Then I got, and I was like, oh no, I'm going to have to do this. I thought, Fred's going to do it, he's going in. It was our moment to go hard. You had your moulds on and I had my metal studs. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do something, right? I'm going to see you sweat, I'm going to see you suffer a bit. Well, it's worked out for me, beautiful, thanks very much. You're a pro at that, don't you? You should get your own podcast. It was a beautiful day for it. So how was Sunday then? Yeah, amazing. I loved it. So how you thought it would go? So just the atmosphere and... No, I think my fear with those things is that they're any form of an anti-climax. When you know you've done it before, we've had three now, where we had Blackburn was like an explosion of emotion, which was amazing, right? Doing it away from home. I always wanted to do, I say always, I wanted to do it away from home. When it became clear we might do it away, I liked the idea of that, like the core fans of travel celebrating. I did it at Chelsea once, the Bolton was our first one, and it was amazing. And it was like that of seven and a half thousand for us was unreal. And then Holtzmouth, I thought, was special as well in another way. And then, so you do get to the third one, but you go, the fact that I think we had all the families, the cup, obviously, the lift. I thought it was done brilliantly, credit to everyone who did that. But I thought it was, yeah, spot on, loved it. So you just kept it going, didn't you? You just extended it, kept doing these great little moments, and then the trophy. I agree with you on Blackburn. Blackburn was like, I had a moment, I was thinking, well, it's a long way there, they're all ready for it, and it's 85 minutes, it's 1-0. I had that. Thinking it all set up, and then it wasn't set up. But then it was, I was more emotional, I think, like you then, even though I knew it was mathematically done. But just to do it in a way that was a positive way, rather than a... Yeah, I mean, it was always about promotion, right? When we sit at the start of the year or whatever, that's the dream. So that was probably why we had the time. I wouldn't say it was a stutter before that, but you could feel it in the performances, right? Sheffield Wednesday, a little bit of halt. So I think that, I was like you at 80 minutes, because you're trying to go over the game. I played the back three, I felt that was right. It wasn't perfect in the first half, and I felt that. So kind of stewing on that. They score, we change the system, we push. But you wonder if it's 7,500 people going to go home, going, oh, I've got to wait till next week, or whatever. And we've let them down to some extent. And they were so ready for it, weren't they? Yeah. Everyone outside, oh, it's today, it's going to be the day. And then suddenly it was like, maybe it isn't going to be the day. But that is fate, right, a little bit. And sometimes I believe in that. And I also, having done it before, as I said, as a player specifically, I remember that kind of nervy feeling. I remember how the lads felt in that first half at Blackburn. I had similar. So I was by no means holding it against them. I mean, I wouldn't anyway. But when I look back, I kind of go, was it meant to be? Big Bobby comes up with that. And even Torpey, you know, coming on with the delivery. Torpey was such a big part to the first half of the season. And of course, second half, he hasn't played as much as he'd want. But we all know what he is. And him to deliver that quality, Bobby to do that. And the uproar there. Which was perfect, wasn't it? And then we didn't know what to do. Do we keep the ball? Do we try and score another one? Grimes, he asked me. It was like you were just at the back going, yes. I don't know. I wanted to win it. I said, come on, let's win the game. Me too. Me too, get greedy. So no, I think you're right. I think Blackburn was that. But then we've gone and done the other two games brilliantly. And I'm so pleased the lads played the way they've been playing for a big part of the season. Because once you release the shackles of Blackburn, you get a great feeling. They came here against Portsmouth. I was worried about that game because they were on good form. And I was like, is it going to be one of those? And then they just played. I said to them before, just play as you've been playing, lads. Yeah, it was different. Let's take a step back to the 18 months prior to that. When you, I remember it. I do remember that moment. Because I think you came in the side entries in Palmarini to sort of let you in. Because everybody had gone home. It was about 7 at night or 6.30 at night. Yeah. And yeah, we had a chat, didn't we? Sort of, you know, I don't know what we chatted about. Probably not a lot. I was on a chat today. I said, yeah, I just like to meet people. We'll see what they're up to. How they're thinking about themselves. What they're up to. But I mean, it was an interesting moment to, you know, there was the opportunity there. And obviously, you've done your research on Coventry scene. I guess it was going to be interesting to follow the Mark Robbins, you know, long duration. Yeah. What do you make of that first meeting? Yeah, I remember it pretty well. And I think when you're in this job, I've done a few job interviews as such. Ours was always felt like it was going to be a casual chat, but you never know. So I had my laptop ready for you. I'm going to show you what I'm going to do with your team, Doug. And then I don't think I got it out. No, you didn't get it. I liked that. I've had ones with a laptop and I've had ones that are chats. I think that probably is more of a reflection of what you want out of it. And I felt that I was going into that kind of chat. More general, what am I like? What are you like? What's the fit? But for probably both of us a bit, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think it was, we've had many since, haven't we? I remember having a good feeling coming out of it, I have to say. Probably, you know, your passion for it, your explanation of what it was, what the job was, what it meant to you. Because that process had been a couple of weeks. From my end, I was kind of, what's going to happen here? And I think from having that chat, definitely made me feel more comfortable about what the project was going to be. And like you said, the thing about Mark, I was very aware of his legacy, fan reaction, where I was at that point. And I wasn't fearful of it. I just wanted to get a sense of it, probably. So that first chat was probably the first chat with you, and sensing what your vision was, I guess. When you look at like a next project, like what we discussed, the squad, you've got to make a judgment call on your players. You can't influence much, right? We're in November, right? Wasn't it? Probably October, November. You get January to maybe tweak it if you go, well, that wasn't quite what I was hoping for. So how much depth did you go into to look at who we had in the building? I watched every game from the season, and I watched the cup final, semi-final against Manchester United. I wanted to see a high-level, high-pressure game. I had watched that game at home. Sorry about this, but I flicked off at 3-0. I did up there as well. I was like, oh, you'll get out of here, 3-0. You got the game on. I went, no, no, it's 3-0. It's done, and that's how I came back to it. So I had to watch it with a coach's eye. I suppose with the squad, the general thing was my first challenge was, what's this team going to look like with me? Because I think I considered that Mark had tried to be a back four, and then he'd gone back to a back five, and I got that because I'm a coach. I've seen that. I've been in that situation myself because you're searching. And clearly, at that point, from points gained and where we were on the table, something wasn't quite right. As we've been now, I've been on the other end of that, of losing my job. So it was trying to kind of work out, is this a back four, back five squad as a make-up? What are the strengths of it? And then I kind of like to be as confident, because I'd heard a lot of stuff about this is a really talented squad, a group of players, but the position in the league didn't quite say that. So it's making the judgment call on how true that is and what impact you can have. I think I've learned that. I've probably gone into a couple of tough jobs, specifically, probably going back to Chelsea. I mean, it's a different animal as an interim. But when I looked at that, I probably went in and thought, I can affect this. And looking back, I should have made a call that was different, in a football sense. Yeah, interesting. And then emotions maybe took over that. No problem. I don't have regrets for stuff like that. I did it, and I did it, I know, with my right intentions. But I suppose, you know, you go for a little experience like that, even with Everton, went into a relegation battle. Great, came through that, learnt a lot. But this one was one I wanted to now, I wanted to get it right. Yeah. So you want to know the tools are there. And obviously, I'm hoping that you think I'm the man to give those tools. It's a two-sided conversation at that point. But I felt like we could do the work. And it was important that I think you felt me out in that conversation and vice versa, I guess. I think it's also a moment of where people are in what they want to do. I mean, you're successful. You're hugely successful over your life. And then it's a matter of, here I am again. It's the championship. It's Coventry. I've got my family in London. That sounds commute. Does he want me to move or not? How's that going to go? You're probably working in those, you know, is in your discussion points in your mind as to relevance of an opportunity. So, I mean, how relevant was location? Let's say you've been in, I don't know, up north somewhere, you know, like Burnley or a long way to go. Big move. Was that an influence or location? It's definitely part of the thought process. Because I had a year at Everson. I really like my time at Everson. And when I look back, I look back with even more better feeling about it. Because it's a bit, you know, as time travels, you kind of look back at the good stuff. But I did miss my family in the end because I've got four children. Two of them are kind of flown the nest already. So they're fine. But my younger two, this job is one of the worst things. Sometimes it suits a man who can travel and isn't bothered to maybe even be in different countries, let alone other side of the country. So I did think that that was, I knew it was commutable as much as I needed it to be. So I kind of worked that one out quickly. Yeah. It was much more about the football project for me in the end. Okay. Well, what can I? That was the big, that was the big point is it's a project though. Yeah. Because you're coming back in. So obviously all eyes are going to be, they're going to be on it, aren't they? We know that. You know that. And you go, well, here we go. This one, we had a home for you. So yeah, I agree with you. So therefore the football project was the most critical. Have I got the tools? I guess you're going to make a judgment call on what the club is. We didn't own the stadium at the time, but we've been in a good trajectory. You've been around it, haven't we? Yeah. We did finish ninth the year prior. I mean, I always take a lot of confidence and I took a lot of confidence from the quality of the players is that we finished ninth losing five out of the last six and we had a great run and we'd added like Jack, you know, Redoni to our, to our squad at that time. And we just, in my, we lost our way. So I felt like you had a reason, you know, you had a good toolkit. If we could unlock it, but we were in a, we were lost. I felt at that time. And, and what was the most, you know, what was the first thing that you try to do? Clarity. I mean, you obviously met them. I saw the videos and they're all looking like, oh, it's Frank Laufeld in there. I saw Fabio Tavares. Do you see that picture where he's sort of like, I thought, oh my God. It was quite like, yeah. Wow. That's interesting. They're all like, they've got to be woken up, right? Yeah. And I'm, I'm human too. So when I walk in that room, I don't walk in like here I am. You know, you didn't at all. I remember it. You walked in very, I think I said a few words and then you, and you addressed them and then it got down to business. I thought it was, I've not been through that situation. I mean, is it big fanfare? Is it not? It was like, it was just, I'm down to business. Here we go. Yeah. And that's, that was how it was. I think to quickly jump into how I wanted to start, I wasn't, I'm quite good at blocking out noise in terms of, you know, fans that didn't want Marv Robinson to leave, fans that didn't want, didn't want me to get the job. I'm aware of it. I'm not stupid, but I'm good at blocking it out. So that was one thing. And it's important to be as good at that because it can affect you, I think. But it was more clarity. I had the experience of coming in at Everton midway through a season. So I knew that I had one experience of the challenges of that. And each challenge is different. Everton was very much a, a confidence crisis. I can say that, of the whole club, the players. So it was like kind of trying to work out that we, if hopefully we didn't have that, or if that was there, how can we change that? So that for me is personal interaction to the players, get them on the ball, get them feeling that you're personable and you're coming in to help every one of them. And that's, that's for me and the staff. We all have to play, you know, work that one. Yeah. And then the next thing is clarity of the job, of the, what you, the message, clarity and strip it back. The first thing I, I looked at and we did was the off the ball work, out of possession. Because when I watched it, that, that was something I found visually to be off point at that point, my, my opinion. But the distances were too big. We were too easy to play through. And I was like, okay, well, let's get that bit sorted out because that will tighten us up. Yeah. Which goes into physicals and how fit we are as a group. Every manager will come in and go, I want to get them fitter. Everybody says that. And a lot of people, a lot of people go, well, you weren't fit enough with the old one. I know that. But we actively had to get on that one. And that's not easy mid-season. You said that, you said that to me. Yeah, I felt that. And I felt that then is, is other things. It's not just, you know, us running the legs off them because mid-season, it's not easy to do that. But there was things. And when we spoke, didn't we, about things that we felt were important, like staying in the hotel before games, eating before games, the tiny little things. But then I'm much more thinking about the practical stuff that you do on the pitch. And then how clearly you show them visually in the meeting room why those distances are too big. How can we get more pressure on the ball? What do we want to be? And looking back to pat ourselves on the back as staff, I would say that we were quite clear and we got some real important things quite quickly where we wanted to get them. Like the defensive line was a big deal for us. Yeah. And we got the line up the pitch. Yeah. So that made us look to me much more like... So you focused pretty much on what you wanted to do straight away, identified that, made that change that was quite, you know, visible to you that you wanted to do. Yeah. And that sort of started it. And then you built from there. Yeah. That was how you sort of approached it. Yeah. And the best thing I remember feeling was that these boys want to learn. They wanted to, like, you can kind of get that feeling from players that kind of go, we're half on the journey here. We're halfway there. But specifically going for a lot of the members of the squad. And they'll always be the ones that feel like they're playing straight away. Because that's what football is. The other team can be disgruntled. But I didn't feel that. I didn't feel we had big numbers that weren't buying in. But I did feel like when we sat with the defenders, they wanted to get the line up. They were not kind of distant to it. And they wanted to train how we did. And that connection was there quite quickly. We probably had that one month of, hmm, good result, but not so good. I think it was always going to happen like that, wasn't it? I mean, I was expecting, I mean, everybody kept asking me, oh, what's the expectations you set, you know, Frank? And I said, come in, have a look at it, see what he thinks, get to work. And hopefully, if we get the processes right, we'll get the results. What I say doesn't matter, does it? They're just words that, you know, you want to say, oh, are you going to do this? And I don't think those things work. Because if you do what you did and focused on the thing that you wanted to focus on first, got to know the boys a bit, which is always important. I think in business, everybody, you know, outside of football, they come in quickly to make an impact. And they go, that, that, that, that, that, like a machine gun. And they haven't assessed it. And that changes quickly, actually, because if you assess it, you then say, oh, I shouldn't have done that. And then everybody goes, well, why did you do that? And then you lose it. So I think you worked really well on that first transition, because that was the hardest part for me, is coming in. And obviously, how are you going to, you know, the reaction of everybody, are they going to turn up after the excitement of it all? Let's talk about the fan interest. Because obviously, you've grown that, like, it feels like, I think they forced you to do one at Millwall, did they? Is that how it started? Fifth times, yeah. Because have you done that previously? No. So it was a new, I can see you, you were a novice at it. I mean, I'm worse than you, obviously, but you were a novice at it, because I remember it, but it was at Millwall, was it? Yeah. And how did it come about then, that sort of? Well, I'd seen Milan, did Milan do it before me on the day, like he always, Milan's on his own, and then I got, and I was like, oh no, I'm going to have to do this. And I hadn't practiced it in my head, I hadn't done anything. And I did sort of mess it up, I did three and a half, rather than four, five, I don't know, I don't want to watch it back. So that's been signed for history. I thought, Fred's going to do it, he's going in. And that was it. I mean, it was, it felt like, yeah, they sort of forced you, and you were a bit uncomfortable doing it, because you're that person, actually, you're not straight in the front of it, they do it first, you follow in on the results side of it. But then it seemed to, you know, some have connection that you suddenly started having with the fan base, which I guess I didn't know would occur so quickly after the Mark situation. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't know exactly how, it was, I hope it was authentic, because it just happened, I can't even give it a moment. But I do think when I reflect on it, that maybe the whole, Mark Robin's leaving and people obviously hold him in high regard, and then Frank's in, I'm sure some people were happy, maybe some people less. I think that kind of unease, once we quickly started to get to it, I think maybe people went, oh no, I want to get on this journey, do you know what I mean? And hopefully they saw that I'm not here to be this, you know, don't talk about my career too much, playing career. I'm here to work, we showed that. And in those early stages, I think, you know, it's normal, the jury can still be out when you go to Cardiff on New Year's Day and draw one all, and it's a bit of an average performance from us. The biggest thing that happened to us, and it was by, sometimes you need, not luck, you need something to show you the way, and that's why you shouldn't take your early assessments too dramatically, because something could surprise you. And what surprised me after Cardiff, I can't remember the injury specifically, but there were a couple of injuries that meant I had to go to the back five. You did. And then we went to back five with Norwich, Kitsch played his first game. And Kitsch had been injured before I got in, and was sort of looking a bit disgruntled, he was upset not to play, that's Kitsch, and Jamie Allen. And they both came in, and they were brilliant at Norwich, and we lost 2-1, and we all know that. But the performance said to me, OK, there's two boys that are fighters, and they can come in, and they've got quality. And here maybe is a system that in the short term will get us results that we need to build the confidence. And so we stuck with that from that game. Sheffield Wednesday in the Cup, win. And then we went on that win. Incredible, incredible run. As you say, and somewhat surprisingly, as you say, through a different formation than maybe we were expecting it to go. And then obviously it sort of moved us up into the action stations from maybe not thinking we might figure that here. And you're on your beginning, I guess. I'm a believer in you make your own luck. And if you work hard, those things come. If you can grab them, then they work. And then you just build confidence. That's why the stadium started to get filled up more. The players started to believe. My team talks are easier. The post-match is easier. And everything gets a positive feeling. So, you know, and that went on that great run. It carried away with itself, which is brilliant, because that's not always the moment in football. There are moments where you're sort of toiling away, thinking you're doing all the right things, and they don't come off. So I think those little things that happened there, we became a really strong unit. We found ways of winning games. And it wasn't ugly with a back five. If we needed to be that ugly, we could be. But then we still could create and move across, and we would be big. It felt like it was pragmatic as well. You know, it was like, I need to do what I've got to do, and we need to get motor in, and we need a few results. And I think it didn't have to be one way. I always feel like you moved it around quite a lot, which I didn't know how that might unfold. But I think that was very effective in that period. Yeah, I mean, again, honestly, the squad make-up of the centre-backs we had, and the players we had, at times it suited me to be able to get three of those centre-backs, because they want to play. Like, everyone wants to play. But it allowed me to get a bit of balance where I could, there you go, there's your game, and put a bit of pressure on them boys at the back, and they were comfortable with it. I think Efron was injured for a while there. Yeah, he was, yeah, that's right. So we were quite comfortable. I like coaching the back three. I like coaching, it's not a problem. Some things are easy to explain, the way you have coverage on the pitch at times, even in possession. But then I think through that run, we saw Matt Grimes. And Grimesy became the brain, and that will maybe come on later in the first season, last season, where we went back to a four at the right time, because Grimesy was so pivotal in that. But I think he also being how he became a leader on and off the pitch, and a brain of the team, that really helped us as coaches, as staff. Yeah, that's right. We did, didn't we, in that period? We tried to sign him a couple of years beforehand, and then he obviously made the wrong decision at that point. But I think it was one of those moments we went aggressive on that one, because we felt like we needed that sort of player, didn't we? And got him out of there as the captain, which obviously disrupted them a little bit. But I think he'd earned the right to have another go, and here he turned up with us. So that was helpful. I didn't think we'd get him. Didn't you? No. You didn't trust me on the negotiation, did you? Didn't trust you at all, no. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do something, right? You know me now. I was like, all right, though. It's context. Mid-season, and I'm looking at it, and I'm looking at it as a captain of a club there. They weren't necessarily challenging, where they were sort of mid-table at the time, but I was like, can this happen by the end of the month? And I spoke to Grimesy on the phone at the right time, and that made me really not sure that he was the man. I was like, this fella's really impressive, and he really bought in, and he was like, I want to get promoted. I love that. He wasn't coming here again. And some people, when we say things for effect, I got the real authentic feel of him. Spoke to a few people about him, and I was like, wow, this fella, everyone's saying the right thing about him, and we all loved him, didn't we? And we got him. Yeah, always, always love what you imply, and obviously the person that he was, and being captain for a long time that you don't get, unless you're that quality. So yeah, that was great. So we got him in. So that was good. Let's go to the, obviously we got into the playoffs. I mean, we had a few little moments, didn't we, towards the end of Plymouth, and then obviously the great win against Middlesbrough when we needed it. We needed it, didn't we? Had to win that game. It was like, win the game, or your chance you don't go into the playoffs. You don't go into the playoffs, probably. Good performance, solid, looked really proper, and then obviously into the tough one. Well, I think in the running, we started to play like I wanted us to play, because if I remember the home games, like West Brom here, we would give Middlesbrough that last game. And even easy behind, like with Luton, and looking back, they happened. I remember after Luton in the dressing room, and we had Middlesbrough the following week, and that's sort of now do or die, playoff time. And I remember the lads, and a few spoke up, Joel being one of them. Joel wasn't always playing, but he spoke up really, really positively after. That's easy now to say, but that gave me a good feeling into Borough, and then the boys played at Borough as we knew we started to be able to. And then, looking back now, the semi-final which we lost was meant to be. For me, I'm saying from my opinion, maybe that was meant to be. And where we were at as a group, and a couple of people said it to me, a couple of people really close to me said it to me afterwards, maybe it's not the worst thing. It's not easy to hear when you're just mourning a defeat. I couldn't see it then. But what I did think is that we played really well in the games, and that really sort of frustrated me, because I felt for the lads after that, and addressing them after the away game, it was like I could see all their faces. It was like, I didn't know. I felt like they did. I remember it because I came, obviously it was, that one hurt. Obviously, I'd been through the one at Luton. That was early on in my, that was like a little, a Brucey bonus, if you want. I know we lost the penalty shootout, and I thought, wow, here we go. That was a great experience. I guess we'll go again. I've not really had a moment to gamble. The Man United one was, as you say, it was three-nil down. I was out the door, and then suddenly the whole world went into some crazy different world. This one was just a bit harder, because it was, I knew how well we were playing. We'd sort of, you know, given one away at home, which was unfortunate. We played really well away, under very difficult circumstances. You know, quite hostile, I thought, the environment. And got right to that nitty-gritty end of it. And then the volcano of the Sunland fans. I was sitting there, it was just shaking. And I thought, oh my God. I remember coming down, I saw the Ennsil fans, you know, they were very down. I mean, you were upset, I think, at that moment. I mean, obviously you were, but it hurt the way it went, right? Well, yeah, I hate losing at the best of times, then that's what I did. But I did, I don't know when it kicked in, but I had a real sense of pride about how they took on the second leg. I mean, we controlled the first, and we gave away just that couple of goals that we shouldn't have done. But the way they took that on, we were the team that went there and grabbed the game. And extra time, we were trying and trying. So I kind of loved them for that. So when I got over that pain of it, it was quite quick, really, for me in the end. Yeah, for me, I guess, too. I say, OK, we go again. Here we go. Sunland have their moment. And obviously they went on to get into the, snatch it against Sheffield United and get up into the Premier League. And I guess we had our reset moment. So how did you feel going in? Obviously you had a pre-season and you knew what you were dealing with then. We knew what we were going to do, probably a bit in the marketplace. Were you optimistic? Did you think it was going to be? Yeah, I guess where I, maybe I'll start. I think I was, I thought we'd be around the top six, maybe hopefully in the top three, four, you know, get into that position where we should hopefully get a home game and a playoff was my, we hadn't had. And I think it's the last second leg of the playoff. And I always think it's easier to have one at home when it really matters rather than one in the cauldron. So that was my expectation. I really, really, I thought we were in a good place. I felt good about the situations. I didn't really think much about it. I don't know. Where were you in it? Probably about the same as you. You might be slightly more optimistic when you say third and fourth. And I'm not putting the lads down. It's the last thing I'd do now. But probably my job is to be a little bit half glass, half empty at times because you're always going, you know, you've got push and you're sizing up the parachute team. There's one more with Sheppard United that is still, and then looking at Wrexham and Bane, you can overanalyse that stuff and you can do it. And I probably thought, yeah, if we can get what felt near on the perfect season, but really maximise ourself, I thought, yeah, we can make the playoffs. I'm scared of that. But I was probably around where you were. What was good is that we kept the players we wanted to keep. No doubt that that was crucial. And obviously we have to go into the detail of that, but we managed to do that. They wanted to stay, didn't they? It was just they had opportunities that were exciting for them, right? And that was the issue we had to address. But you were adamant and you're rightly adamant that we weren't going to go where we wanted to go if we traded our players to our competitors. I'm not going to name names obviously, but if I look at some of the players, of course, it's your best player and the team's won. And I can look at that and go, would we have got to where we've got to now without those players? No, that's my realistic coach's head going. They're hugely important players in whatever position you're talking about. So that was crucial. And we know I felt we went in thin. You would sort of say, good, everyone's involved. We had that chat a lot. My concern was, if we get too many injuries in different areas, it would really affect us. I did have that concern. Fortunately, in that first half of the season, once it started, that we know now, when we have one injury, we rarely had two in the same area. We kind of might have had Brandon out for a bit and then maybe Rudy out, but Brandon was back in. And it managed to look after itself there. So people were all involved at the top of the pitch in all countries. We didn't get too stressed at that part. That was my worry. Have we got enough options in attacking areas? But in the end, as I say, we managed to get through that. But I like the fact we kept the boys together. Obviously, when you look back and we recruited and Rushy specifically has been, and that was always probably the one we looked at. It's the one we said we had to do and we got that one right. We didn't buy him, but we got him in the club. I think that was a big moment just to ensure we had that for the season. And back four, having that sort of goalkeeper behind you, I think is critical. We talked about that and got that done. So we went on that amazing run, right? And when we're top of the league by lots of points, nobody's going, my goodness, how do you feel about that moment? I feared that gap never starts to get in up. No, we had a great pre-season. Let's come back to that quickly. You said that. Why was it such a good pre-season? It was quite, because we had nicely challenging games. We had a great week in Portugal, but they really trained hard. Yeah, you worked them hard. I was there. Yeah, we pushed them and we were really looking forward to pushing them. I love that week in pre-season. Once you've refreshed and you get out there and you can really, you don't have to worry in the first week too much about tactics in Portugal. You do a little bit in the afternoon and you have a couple of patterns and dips and bobs and team shape stuff, but more of it is, I'm going to see you sweat. I'm going to see you suffer a bit within reason, obviously. Yeah. And they did that. And in the challenging games, the game against Betis here, I liked us. The game against St. Pauli here, again, I liked us. Levels, you know, that we, and no, I liked that. So I went into the season at that point with more confidence about what we're going to look like. And then, yeah, we went on that run. Had to cut the draws early, didn't we? So it was like, okay. We did start with nil-nil. I always think some of the best rounds, you know, I'm a golfer, so best rounds of golf start with a double bogey or something. Right. You know, because all the shackles, oh, drew nil-nil. I can relax now, boom. I don't know. It wasn't quite like that. We drew nil-nil and then obviously we went on the some high scoring, exciting games, didn't we? Yeah. I think from our point of view, the work we did in the summer was how can we concede less in simple terms? We conceded too many. We specifically conceded against teams in the bottom half of the table. I think after bottom eight or so, we showed a stat to the boys. We conceded two against Oxford twice, two against, three against Plymouth. These numbers racked up and we were like, that can't be happening now. That's not coaching because if that was coaching, everyone could do this job. Go, don't concede against us. But I go, thanks, boss. We'll do that. Do you know what I mean? It's not. But it was good to set the tone that we're going to make sure we're better. And there's lots of things to do. It's how will you high-press and keep them there? How you defend your box, the most critical thing. And we work a lot on that. So we sort of analysed that and straight away, I could see we felt better with that. And then we, the other thing that was in possession was we know we can get Grimesy down and control and go wide and cross. And we've crossed, we've scored the most heavy goals in Europe. So let's not lose that. But can we score more when we win it back in the middle of the pitch or when we're in transition? Because look at us, we've got Padgey, Ellis, Brandon, Rudy. There is speed and power to maximise it. And in those early games, the lads were really balling. We called it play forward, run forward. We've not recreated the world there. We've not reinvented the world. But it's a simple term of like, so we train for that. Through the lines, boom. Yeah, and I like watching that. I like watching control and push and cross. But I also like that. Yeah, play differently. Yeah, and QPR was one of those, I think two or three of those seven goals were exactly that. Yeah, well, that was a day, obviously, we got our hands on the stadium, wasn't it? Yeah. And I remember phoning you the night before. Yeah. And actually, I'd phoned you the night before and I thought it was done and it wasn't done. So I thought, gee, I've just phoned Frank. How's that right? It was like, I was waiting for it to get done. And it was like, knowing what I knew, like, I hope this does get done because I've just told a few people and they're all probably, you know, ready for a bit of action. And they obviously did get done. And then, yeah, it was a weird day that. I mean, obviously putting the club and the stadium together was, I knew I wanted to do that from the get-go. Whether you could ever do that was not sure because you need somebody to partake in the other side of the transaction. I was talking to Matt about it and he, because you told the players in the morning, did you, before the game? It had gone off a bit on socials, I think. Had it, right. Someone mentioned it in the staff office and then I did tell them I addressed it and I used it a bit. Yeah, you used it. The crowd are going to be so excited, which they were, I was feeling. You must have got a good feeling off the back of that. I just, you know, it was like, wow, I did feel proud because that was a hard one. I could never have guaranteed it. And I knew that if we come in and play and you're somebody else's stadium and you can't do this and they won't let you train then and, you know, all these things that are really not helpful for being together, you know, togetherness. So I knew I really wanted to get it done and I've been trying to get it done for a while. And got it done. And I guess, I don't know, for me, it was a great thing because I knew for the broader club, we needed to be joined up. But I guess the players obviously didn't let us down that day. But obviously since then, has it felt different that we own it? Does it feel like walking in here that, you know, you're not yours? We go there, we'll train in the morning. Don't worry about it. You know, you can do what you want now, slightly. Yeah, the pitch is better now. That's a serious point. But there's definitely, I don't want to call it subconscious, but a feeling. On that day, it was a line in the sand. Like, wow. And, you know, I think the fans probably felt it as much as anyone because they've lived this journey. And the players maybe haven't so much. But I have to say, these players, this is what's been the great relationship between fans and players. It's a two-way thing. You said the players wanted to be here and stuff. And I think that probably heightened that at that point in the season. And I understand it. You know, everyone wants to play for a football club that is together. And the gesture of doing it alone from our point of view, I think it was a big deal. And yeah, and that's kind of grown. There's a feeling of stability more from it, right? Yeah, I think so. So let's go into the... Because we obviously were where we are. We had the great run. I remember we all had our discussions into the January window. And I think our discussion was studs in, wasn't it? Wasn't there our little moment? That was like the end of it. Was it? We had some discussions. I said studs in. You said absolutely. And I think you probably got a little bit nervous that the studs weren't going in quickly. You had your moulds on and I had my metal studs. Yeah, I remember you going, well, I don't remember studs going in that lightly. You were wearing your slippers at one point. Yeah, I mean, there was a timing moment on all those things. But listen, I was aware of that moment. You were aware of the moment. It was the moment to make sure we had the... We were in the middle of a tough run, right? Yeah, we were. There was clear fatigue. We'd had that bit of flu and illness in the camp. And I saw that and I worried and I felt like we needed to bolster the squad. For players to come in and help us and play or push the ones. And we're waiting for Tad's facilities in my head because Tad struggled with the illness. And you could see it. Yes, he did. Yeah, he did. And I was just like, my feeling in honesty was that we've got this far. I know we'd had a funny patch, but we're still where we are. Let's push. And I felt that I needed to articulate to that. This is what I feel like pushing is. And we have those chats. Yeah, you put your serious face on, didn't you? I mean, you're giving the serious face. Yeah, I know. I need to otherwise. If I joke around at the time... Listen, I think you're right. And listen, I was aware of that. And obviously we got Frank on the echo in, didn't we? Who we'd identified as somebody who would really reinforce us in that middle of the patch where maybe we'd been a bit... Just give us that bit of steel. And he came in and made an immediate impact, didn't he? Which was great to see. And so we got the wingers in and we got that done in a way. I was relieved we got it done. Obviously, it was our moment to go hard because unlike you, it's like you don't get many where you're having this sort of move in the championship when you're on parachute payment. So I think we were aligned. Maybe the speed of the studs in, I was a little slower than you, but we got the studs in in the end, right? We did. The week that really made me think, you know, and it's easy with hindsight again, but the week into Middlesbrough after the QPR, we had, I think it was a Monday night, so we had like eight days, nine days, a bit longer than usual. And we trained with 10 v 10 pretty much every day. And we trained off the ball because we didn't want them to come here and play because they were popping teams. They were beating Sheffield United the week before. These boys are going well. Six in a row, I think. Yeah, they were on a great run, just jumped us, everyone's talking and we're going to bottle it. And we had a great week's training with the 10 v 10. I remember we spoke and you said to me, wow, this has been a great week training. And I said, that's great because obviously we've got a hell of a game coming up. But you did say that and you don't say that lightly. No, I felt that I meant it and it was great that the lads were really buying into it because asking Bobby and Joel to play that game, asking them to go 20 hours in there to jump to their people to play between the lines is a big ask. You've got to go all in or if you go halfway in, then they're going to move you and play through you. And they did that. And the energy of that performance, the energy of the night, I think it brought everyone's confidence back, right? I think that night, I mean, it was the moment, wasn't it? It was, it felt like a massive game. It had the sort of smoke and the pyros and the feel of it. It felt like, did you see the drone footage? Yeah. It felt like it was, I always say, people felt like we were in Europe, the European one, slightly. And it was just, and then the performance, you know, to first half straight into the, you know, you're coming here and we're not having it. No. It was epic. It changed the mindset, I think. And then we went on that run, I don't know, was it seven out of eight or something like that? And just amassed wins, which we've done now a few times in my time. And what it does in this league, when you go three points, three points, three points, it just starts to look, everything looks good, confidence is good. Yeah, it looks great. You just feel it. And then that, we went down to Swansea, didn't we? And, you know, I thought that performance there was, I came out of that thinking, yeah, thanks for that. I just said, yeah, that was a champion, that was a champion performance. They'd been on a great run, tough at home to go down there, not good track record, shut it down, thanks for coming. And then they came out second, I'll try to limit the damage. You know, it's like we've conquered that moment of, you know, seeing us to the top of the pile. So, yeah, that was a great moment for me. What I loved about that game, we went three nil because we were clinical, bang, bang, bang with the goals and maybe they could have scored one or two, right? But at halftime, when I said to the players, I got a couple of clips in the dressing room of us in a good block where there were no spaces between for them to run through because they had their headaches running through. I went like, this is what the second half's got to look like. And the lads did it and they just nullified the game. Like you said, I thought, oh, they dealt with the game there. Yeah, they dealt with it, shut it down. Yeah. There was, it was comfortable, just we're away and it just felt like, you know. It was a moment I thought we'd do it in terms of promotion. I felt there, clearly we were getting closer, but we still had a few things to navigate. But I looked at that performance and thought we were going to do it. So you look at the 18 months then, it's probably, you know, gone way above your, well, your expectations will be what your expectations were. The lifestyles work well, as long as you have the balance. I think you talked about that in the EFL award when you took the manager of the year award. I agree with you. I think work-life balance is critical. If it's too extreme, you can do it when you're younger, maybe. But, you know, as you go through your journey, it just becomes a bit too much when you're trying to, you know, you're trying to enjoy moments as well as be very intense. I don't know. That's how I sort of thought about it. So in a way, it's worked out. Well, it's worked out for me, beautiful. Thanks very much. Look at that. We've got the trophy sitting there gleaming in the sunlight with the club colours on and no champagne in it. No, I know. I don't know who drank all that. Stop it. That was an embarrassing moment. No, this is the culmination of a lot of hard work, isn't it? And it's still a little bit surreal. Yeah, it feels a bit third party for me slightly. It's like over there. But great, because that's good because then when something pops up on the telly or you're driving here early and you see Champions, it hits again. I saw that today when I walked out. I saw some cars with some colours on and they said Champions on the screen still that they only bring out for the games that was left there. Yeah, Champions going back to the stadium. Yeah, we felt good, to be honest with you. I have to say, coming in today. Job well done. Congrats to you, mate.