Couples Therapy Tough Conversations ⚠️

I'm at the point where it's like I'm not attracted to you right now. That's a difficult thing to say, but there's probably more to say than just that. Like I'm just not attracted to her? I don't know if there's such a thing as just not attracted. There's something to say here. There has been this sense of entitlement in the past that has been at the core of our problems. Tell me about that. Lauren is the breadwinner in our family. In the very beginning it was like I was her assistant because I was figuring my ---- out job-wise. It's not like we had a conversation and I'm like, you're my assistant? No, I didn't say that. But that's how you treated me. But since you're not the one making money, then you should help. It was expected that I was going to get up every morning before her and make the coffee and give it to her. And when she came home from work I was going to have dinner on the table and I was going to do all the laundry. That I was going to be there to do everything. I don't think that's totally true. I think there was a bit of like I'm trying to help us survive and get this new job and make money. And I needed help. We have struggled with this. I felt to an extent that yes, if someone's going to sacrifice some time, it makes sense for the person who's not earning close to as much. Not even close to as much. In the grand scheme of things wasn't earning, wasn't keeping us afloat even in the slightest. That made sense. You didn't invent that paradigm, right? That money equals power and money equals some privilege in the relationship. And it is something that we have talked through and I have worked on. And it has been very, very, very hard to switch that mindset. In the past I would say entitlement, yes. Today it's just feel like it kind of comes from a place of I don't know how to keep up. I am nervous when there's dishes around. Because you don't want to do them. Can I ask a question? It's not because I don't want to do them. I don't mind doing the dishes. I just don't have that much time that often. And I don't know. Maybe you don't feel like it's your job because you're more of the breadwinner. If we're working, let me ask you this. If you and I are both working the same amount of hours, whose responsibility is it to clean the house and to make sure ---- gets done? Ideally we should both sweat it. When does that happen? Can I just ask? I know it's not a PC question to ask. And does it matter how much money each person is bringing? I think in my gut I feel like yeah. He sent me a text last week about our sex life that he's not very happy with. How is this text phrase true? I just told her that it's non-existent. I feel like I'm not wanted. Meaning you're feeling unwanted. And feeling like I don't even know how to go about sex with her anymore. Because there's been plenty of times where she's denied it or she gives an attitude about it. And she's just like, oh fine, okay. It's not even about the physicality of the sex. It's more of the feeling that you get from your partner from that. So Tashira, how was it to receive this text? I was a little annoyed to be honest. And I responded to him two days later and I was honest with him. Two days you just didn't respond? No, I didn't respond. I didn't respond. What was going on inside you during those two days? It's difficult to say out loud. That I find that he's more attracted to me than I am of him. And you know, his weight. And I know that he has an issue with it as well. Because we've only had sex maybe three times completely naked. I mean, I've been completely naked. You know, but he hasn't. Drew, you don't get addressed? Yeah, I'm just wearing my t-shirt. I'm just used to it. I'm not 100% comfortable with my weight. But you know, down the line during our relationship, she's said some bad things in an argument about my weight. So I don't understand how you could make me feel any comfortable in wanting to get fully naked. So yeah. But to come to the actual point of it, she's just not attracted to me because of my weight. I don't know if it's because of the way that maybe I gained a couple of weight after the baby was born and we moved in. Or maybe she's just never been comfortable with it. I don't know. She needs to figure it out. Because if she's not attracted, then that's that. Because obviously there's no attraction, there's no relationship. And I'm at that point where I'm just, every time it's just a new issue. If it's not, we can't talk about it, she feels like she can't talk to me. Or if it's not the resentment of having the baby, or if it's not the resentment of moving in together, and now it's the weight thing. So every time it's just a new thing, you know. And I'm just tired at this point, I really am. Sure, it does seem like you, I don't actually get a real sense that you're invested in the relationship. Am I wrong? No, not to, not, no, you're not wrong. What are we doing? I mean, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to work on this. I mean, like I said before. I think your way of bringing yourself into, let's say, this kind of therapy might be similar to what you're doing in the relationship. Which is you show up, and your entire message seems to be, I got nothing. I have no wish here. Which might be simply that indeed you've got nothing. You don't have any interest. Or it might be your way of positioning yourself. And I think that's something for you to think really hard about. Okay. Hi. How are you two? Could be better. I'm feeling a little bit cooped up. You know, most kids' schools are closed, so they're home all day, every day. Whoa! I felt like I was just going crazy. And then he told me he would be here all day with me, working from home. And I was just so happy. But my frustration level with him hasn't changed. I still feel like I want to kill him. I feel like definitely because he's home, I have more direct contact with him. So I see what he's doing, like, every day, all day. And he's been spending a lot of time wasting his time. And at the same time, you know, I'm working at my company, and then there's the kids, and the house cleaning, and just everything that goes along with that. And then when I, like, see that, you know, he's spending hours, like, watching TV or talking to his friends, I just feel very taken advantage of. Okay, we'll get back there. I want to hear Michael's perspective on this. She doesn't know what exactly it is I do. And she doesn't know what I'm able to do while I'm doing that. I just feel so annoyed that, like, why do I have to go into the weeds as to what I'm able to do? Nothing. Do you realize that right now, if I worked one day a week, which I'm doing now, I would make more than you make in an entire week. You literally do nothing. You're so lazy. Your existence is worthless right now. It's absolutely worthless. I want to make a suggestion. The kids are doing dirty. Like, I don't understand. Did you give Livia a bath today? Because you seem to be wearing the same thing as last night. Surprise, surprise! Not surprise at all, actually. Does either of them eat anything that wasn't junk? I need you to engage with me in a way, because we can't have you just keep repeating yourself. I really get it. But do you want some help in changing things? Yeah, but I don't think that things are going to change by him just constantly saying, I disagree. I disagree. She doesn't see me. She doesn't see what I do. You know what? You want me to not see what you do? Stop doing everything, because you literally do nothing. Okay? You've got to see what you can actually give to this family. Michal, you are unraveling. Michal, can you engage with me? I understand what's frustrating you. But the way you're doing it is not working. It's really not working. But Michal, what if you were for a while not in the business of handling Michael? What if we did it the opposite, and he tried a little bit to be more like me? And see how hard it is to do all the things that I just do for him and for this family. Honestly, I think that I probably do more for the family than she does. I'm sorry, but this is just such bullshit. When I hear something like that, I literally want to smack him. I'm not managing to have much of an impact, and I don't know if it's partially due to this technology, but it's very difficult for me to intervene at all. I feel like either you don't hear me, or you're not interested, or you're too invested in this thing that the two of you do, and you don't actually want help from the outside. I do want help. I want to try. I would be happy to try to do this. Okay. So if you started doing a few things that you're watching Michal doing, and you're feeling envious of, what would that be? Well, I feel like he spends a lot of time watching TV, talking to his friends, not really taking care of the kids, but just kind of hanging around and playing with them. So I want to do all those things. Okay, so can I now give you kind of a doctor's prescription that every day, you're taking two hours a day to do that. Two hours a day. How am I going to fit it into my schedule? I'm serious. Okay. And whatever you want done during those two hours, dump it onto Michal, and Michal will have to do it his way. Right. Okay, fine. Okay. We met within the context of an open relationship at a time in our lives where I was exploring things and he was exploring different things, and we kind of met. Generally what kind of things? A more open sex life. More sexually. We were both exploring sexually. So he and I are separately serial monogamous, right? From one relationship to another to another. And I think for both of us, we realized sex doesn't have to mean one person for the rest of your life. It can happen within the confines of an emotionally committed relationship. And I think that's what attracted both of us to each other, right? And created that bond. Did you bring other people into your shared sex life? Yeah. And how did that work for the two of you? Yeah, I think at the time, I always looked at it as we were kind of our exploration buddies, you know? And that's kind of where the relationship flourished from there. And did that stop at some point? So boundaries became a huge issue, and we did... So who won and what kind of boundaries? I think when we first got together, the boundaries were that we only dated other people together as a couple. And then, you know, just scheduling issues became difficult, whatever. And so she started dating someone on her own. So then, you know, we decided to try that for a while. But then his boundaries were, okay, you can't go on long walks with them, you can't cuddle, you can't do this, you can't do that. Well, that's going way back. Hold on, hold on. Meaning you can't do things that are... I can't do monogamous relationship things with other people. You can't put your clothes on and come home. And for me, that's not sexy to me. I don't operate, you know, like that. So he had a problem with how I was going to be intimate with someone else. But then when we were looking for other people to date, he was having a hard time because most guys will respond to me. But for guys, it's much more difficult. So sometimes I would help him write the notes to the prospects, right? And it worked. But I think when he started seeing other people, there was that switch that flipped and all of a sudden, oh, oh, I can do this with them. Oh, I can do that with them. Oh, that's okay, this is okay. So it's a free for all now. So he would disappear for three to four hours, not check in, no text, nothing. And I think at that time, it wasn't so much I was jealous. You need to be more mindful of who your primary is. This is someone who told me I can't do the X, Y, and Z. And all of a sudden, he's outdoing X, Y, and Z. You were upset. Yeah. The deeper issue is really feeling left out. I feel ******* left out. And that's not what this relationship is about. That's not what... You're smiling because... Because the irony is, she's saying she feels left out. It's always people trying to include her. I love how you don't take any accountability for how you make me feel. It's not about them, okay? What would you want Will to say? What would be a way that he could convey to you that he is taking some responsibility? What would it sound like? I guess I would love it if he says, you know what? You're more important to me than all these other people. Is there a way that you can communicate to her that she is important? That she's actually the most important? I feel like any time I tell her how I feel about her, she just says, no you don't. That's not how you feel. So part of you feels defeated? Yeah. I try to reassure her with words. She either calls it bullshit or says, no you don't. You know? Or I, you know, try to show her with small actions and things and she says, that's not enough or that's not good enough or... This is what causes me probably the most stress and anxiety in this relationship is just trying to always figure out how to make her happy and always failing at that. Yeah. And yeah, I feel like I've racked my brain endlessly and have lost countless hours of sleep over it and just trying to think of things to do and always coming up short. What are you hearing, Ping? Honestly, just a whole lot of whining. Bullshit. Yeah, that's why I hear it a lot too. Yeah. Because, you know, he makes it seem like I'm this shrew running around. Pay attention to me. I need this, I need that and I don't. I don't think he said that. Wait, I'm a little concerned about what's happening right now. Are you thinking for a second about what Will is saying to you? About his experience? Yes. And your response to that is that is a whole lot of... Whining. It's hard to know what to do in my seat with that response. Because, if I can't rely on the two of you having some concern for each other, I don't know what we're doing here. But this growing resentment that I have for him has, it's not from any one incident. It's from all of these incidents where I see him choosing himself, choosing his needs, putting his needs, putting someone else's needs in front of mine. So, you know what? **** you. All I hear is whining. I don't ******* care. I am the person that he can come home to, he can get comfortable, sit around and fart and be himself. But he won't do that with other people. You know, he puts on his best self for other people, not for me. Right now, we're at a state where we haven't been intimate for a while. I think it's almost a year now. Yeah. So, I just looked at it as, you know, we have three options. One is that we just split up and that's a worst case scenario. Open marriage would be the second round. She doesn't want that. So, then the third case would be that we, you know, reconnect and that's what we're hoping for. Reconnect physically? Physically, everything. Yeah, kind of like rebuild everything, you know, find our way back to each other in a sense. Like, when we first met, I didn't think it was going to get to this point, you know? What do you mean? I didn't think that I was going to marry you. She just thought that she was going to go around getting abandoned. I thought I was just going to be a hoe. That's literally, I thought I was just going to go out there and just party and then I ended up meeting her and I was like, oh, she's great and she's like, she fits like the ideal type of, you know, this is what a good wife would look like and then we both finished nursing school and it got more serious. You know, the next step was to get married so we got married. The next step after that came the children and then I hit 40 and I just reflected back and I was like, oh, ----, this is where I'm at. Like, I want, I want to see what else is out there but she sees a marriage as, or a healthy marriage as being just monogamous. I think a healthy marriage can be both but she doesn't feel that way. I just feel like to be intimate with someone it takes a lot so for her to just be like, oh, I can be with you, it's like, where's the intimacy? Where's the, like, real connection? Like, you're just gonna go and basically spread your legs anywhere you can and that's okay, you know? You're hurt by that. That's why I always say maybe it's me, maybe I'm the issue because if you look at our marriage externally, it's great. Everybody sees her like she's an angel. Like, she's so motherly, she just engulfs everything and kind of just is able to take care of everyone. But something about it is affecting us. Desire. Yeah. I'm at the point where it's like I'm not attracted to you right now. That's a difficult thing to say but there's probably more to say than just that. Like, I'm just not attracted to her? I don't know if there's such a thing as just not attracted. There's something to say here. I feel like I'm like, like, how do you say this? Those sleeping bags when you go camping, right? Okay, I'm just trying to get out the sleeping bag. That's exactly how it feels like. Like, it's nice, it's comfy, it's like, it keeps me warm, I can sleep in it, you know? It's safe. Yeah. I see. Too safe. I just want to get out. Yeah, yeah. Um, how are you feeling? I feel hurt. I feel hurt. Lost, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Lost, like you don't know what to do about all of this? Well, that's why the two of you are here. I think we're doing pretty well, pretty good, pretty well. Mm-hmm. It's weird. I feel like we are in a really good place. I do wonder if being in a really good place is just another way of pushing down again, like, the stuff that we don't want to continue to look at. You know, we've had these really wonderful moments together. We had a lovely date the other night. You know, physically, things have been really very intimate and sometimes good and good, very good. Um, but with that comes this, I think, a little bit of like, oh, is this too good to be? I think for me, I guess I don't trust or know when I'm gonna feel fully forgiven by you. I don't, I don't know when it's all gonna come up again. Right? Like, I feel like when we're in a really good place, I wanna get comfortable. But then I, I'm not sure when all of a sudden everything's gonna be thrown back at me. It seems to me that you are looking for a point that then we move past. I'm not looking for a point. I'm just anticipating that while we're good now, it doesn't mean we're not gonna have moments where we're not good. So I'm anticipating that it's going to bring back I don't trust you and... It might. Right, so that is not, I'm not interested in doing that for the next 50 years. I'm not interested in hearing about all the things that I've done wrong. Like, I am not interested in that being what is brought to the surface every time we are in some sort of a difficult situation. What needs to happen for you to have this not be part of our present anymore? Thinking... I might be thinking too much about the past. What are your thoughts about the past? Why are you shaking your head? Because it's frustrating, honey. What's frustrating? He won't... He won't what? He won't talk about what he is talking about. Well, you just rolled your eyes. But this is typical of us, right? That you're like, I'm ready. Here we go. Let's get on my timeline. I'm ready to move on. I want this healing to happen. What does it take? Let's do it and I won't have to be responsible for you know, about the pain that you feel or whatever. that's not it. It's just that I don't like being caught off guard. Right? Like, I don't know. But Molly, then my suggestion to you would be to create good conditions for talking or opening up a dialogue. So like, I guess something that we could get into is that you have kind of said for a long time that the decisions that you made were about you and they weren't about me. And then the other morning to have you say basically some of your choices were kind of an F you to me. Were a way to like get me to react or get me to respond. What was your reaction hearing that? I kind of felt included in like a weird not weird fucked up way. Oh, it feels fucked up that like you're included in my infidelity. Like, that's not weird. Right. But okay, I guess in my mind I felt like that like the kid is sitting in the in the window totally by myself. And so that's where I emotionally was like, okay, Molly is not thinking about me. She's doing these things and not thinking about me. And that means she doesn't care about me. And that she will ultimately leave. And that she ultimately could leave. Yeah. You had to feel like kind of included was a different kind of feeling which was welcome. It breaks you out of the narrative that you had as a kid. Yeah. Into this story and this family. Yeah. We just signed a lease on a new apartment together. Yeah. Not now. It'll happen in a few months. Uh-huh. Yeah. So excited. And now we're like also nervous. Nervous. Very nervous. Can we just backtrack a little bit? So the decision to move back in together. Tell me about that. I think that like I mean have you been talking about it? Not really honestly. Not really? But like honestly a lot of it's financially driven. Which actually that like that's the primary motivating force for me too. Yeah. And that's a little scary but that's the motivating force. Yeah. That freaks me out a little bit. Mm-hmm. I'm thinking a lot about like this feeling I've had of independence right? Of freedom. Like how do I maintain that now in a shared space? And so like I felt good about the unit. I liked it but I definitely saw in my head separate living spaces. Like I I saw that. What do you mean? Like a place for me to go at night and sleep and like have my night routine and that's why we kind of argued we were arguing yesterday because I really wanted a Murphy bed. Mm-hmm. I want a bed that I can pull down and it's my bed. Mm-hmm. Right? But it's still one bedroom. It's still not a ton of space. Like I don't know if I want a Murphy bed taking up a quarter of the one living shared living space and I was kind of envisioning that like we sleep in the same bed again. Like if you don't want to live with me then why are we getting this one bedroom apartment? Like well I do want to live with you but I don't really see a problem with having a separate bed space. Yeah. I don't know. Well are you open to being flexible on that? Or is it I can only sign the lease if we're I just don't think that makes a lot of I don't know I just don't that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like are we coming together or not? Are you can you tell something about how you're feeling about what Brock is saying that he's suggesting that you sleep separately? How are you feeling about it? I'm feeling sad that like you're not excited. It sounds like this is going to be like what? You plugging your nose and swallowing this decision down like I didn't think that it would be this like huge negotiation to like sleep in the same ******* bed. I mean you're getting mad but you're saying that underneath it sounds like you're hurt? Yeah. Because you're understanding it as a statement that Brock is I mean it definitely feels like a rejection obviously. A rejection of? Being with me loving me wanting to be in partnership with me. I understand that when you interpret something as rejecting it can make you kind of tight and protective of yourself but I don't know if that's what's going on. So maybe you can ask openly if that's what it's about. yeah is I know it feels stupid to even ask because I know you're going to say that's not what it's about that you literally it's so surface level for you that you just want to sleep in your own space. Wait ask damn girl that's quite an assumption. Is that what it's about? No but what it is about is like the last couple years like I have I feel like I've grown so much as an individual and I know you have too in our own spaces and part of it is me kind of just being afraid of like like losing that and so it's not a rejection of you like I'm trying to like I'm really trying to preserve like that part. Does that make sense? Yeah it makes sense it's what I yeah but I'm saying like moving into a one bedroom apartment with me feels like us both compromising us both agreeing to give up our individual spaces to come together and it feels like I'm willing to do that but you're not and so I'm like here now being like what gives? I'm just confused. Wait do you feel like you're giving up the economy too? Uh huh! Willingly! But do you would you like to have that? Because No I'm giving some up to move into an apartment with you and it feels like you don't want to do that same thing. Because we don't have to make that sacrifice so I don't really see it as a sacrifice because it's not something we have to make. I've been wanting to connect Josh and my other partner but like having this nervousness of not doing it right and like when I bring up things that hasn't gone well and like feeling all the ways that like I feel like I've let him down and I've let her down and a situation happened again recently where my other partner had invited Josh to a party and asked me whether she should indirectly invite him or if I should do it and like instead of just saying like Aviva wanted to invite you I like freak out like internally and I don't know what to do and it feels super stressful. It was interesting the text message was literally like I'd really like Josh to come do you want to invite him or should I invite him directly? Right? And now we're here the day of and zero action has been taken and it's like that's there's something here like how do we resolve it? Are you sure you even want this? Like actually like I'm I'm not even upset anymore I'm just like trying to understand like what is the block here and me getting upset because I've been reflecting on it I was like it's definitely not going to help anymore trying not to do that and how did that go? That conversation? I mean I think it was a very good conversation that was incredibly like painful and challenging I really feel like I hit a bottom actually maybe like two weeks ago or a week ago whatever recently What do you mean a bottom? What was there? Wow What was there? I think just a perspective shift I'm just in this very challenged very dark place I'm isolating myself I'm very much stuck in a cycle of overwhelm and then I feel like from that point I was like oh my god I don't have plans with anyone at all going forward period so like trying to make plans being like oh my god my relationships I'm doing this in both of them I feel like I detached from being the main character of my own life I was just kind of like completely in the the flotation of existence and what are you thinking? I was really proud I was like wanted this for so long in terms of like this deeper reflection and pause that Josh was able to create and then it makes me think okay great a lot of things that I wanted to solve are going to be like easier to solve like him and Laura my girlfriend they were like fire and fire together and I was like they went through a messy breakup with each other and don't want to really engage with each other and that's hard for me do you have any thoughts about Lorena talking about not being kind of the main character of her own life? oh yeah I mean that happens Laura's on her mind apparently pretty clearly well yeah she just came back and I got to see her and I was like okay you were laughing because we were laughing because like you were like what am I thinking and I was obviously thinking about Josh and Laura like my partner my other partner you know and then you're like okay how does that and then you're like you drew me back to how does Lorena not being the main character of her own life I was like oh wow okay refocusing it might also be playing at exactly what you're talking about interesting which is that you very easily recede the question to you is what do you want?