When President Donald Trump sat down for an interview in March with New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan for their new book, he showed them a document arguing he was more powerful than some of the most feared and treacherous leaders in history — including Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler. The anecdote is one of many striking scenes captured in Haberman and Swan’s new book, “Regime Change,” which was obtained by CNN ahead of its release on Tuesday. The book provides a blunt, behind-the-scenes portrait of the first 14 months of Trump’s second term, in which the president has wielded his power without constraint — often in a haphazard, improvisational manner — to persecute his perceived enemies, rattle global markets and wage war abroad.
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This discussion explores the internal dynamics of Donald Trump's second term, highlighting a presidency driven by gut instinct, a desire for a monumental legacy, and a disregard for traditional expertise. It details a chaotic Oval Office environment contrasted with extreme secrecy, and a dangerous approach to foreign policy, specifically regarding Iran, where the president ignored expert warnings in favor of personal intuition and a self-perception of unparalleled global power.
In October, he's showing a visitor a model of the ginormous arch he wants to build,
and he's asking for what should be on top of it. He said, should it be, he mused,
a large replica of his fight, fight, fight fist. So he was seriously thinking of having a giant
replica of his fist. He asked someone whether they thought it was a good idea. He also was
asking whether it should be bigger than the Lincoln Memorial. We have a scene in the book
where he calls the French president Emmanuel Macron to ask him about the Arc de Triomphe.
Tell me about your arch, Emmanuel. Do people jump off it, etc.? The point is,
he wants to put his physical imprint not just on America, but on the world.
So how much is he thinking about legacy? I mean, is that what it is?
Enormous. You have a pie chart of his brain. It's a huge slice.
A paragraph from this, which to me was kind of just an amazing paragraph. It's page 167.
By midway through the year, a picture was emerging of how the Oval Office operated in
Trump's second term. It was of a president spending his days at the Resolute desk in
a series of rolling bull sessions accompanied by a core group of intimates. These were
supplemented by a rotating cast of extras, and on any given day, they could be Republican lawmakers,
titans of industry, former pro wrestlers, country musicians, golf royals,
crypto bros, or friends of felons seeking pardons. They would enter and exit the frame
with some invited to stay for meetings they had no business attending. The conversations ran fast,
often straying far from the point or from anything visitors imagined when they arrived at the White
House. The president's sentences often began on one topic and ended far away. It's like the
opening scene of an opera. I mean, it's like it would be an incredible stage play, just that
visual. One of the moments that we describe, and we spoke to somebody who laid out this scene for
us, is, you know, Trump having a highly classified briefing in the Oval Office, and then in comes
the guy with the stone samples for the Rose Garden. Sure. This was last year.
Or Tina. He's always talking about, like, their specific stones. Yeah. Terrazzo. Right. And so
these are moments that all sort of collide into each other. There is just this
sort of sweeping meeting that takes place all day long, and it means that people are pulled
into something, as we say, that probably they shouldn't be listening to. I mean, the stone
guy, the paper guy, had essentially walk-in privileges to the Oval, and that's just the way
this White House works. But there's an interesting contrast. That's all true, of course, and there's
sort of this no delineation, no structure. But what's also true is it's actually a very secretive
White House. Much more so than the first administration. But much more so in some ways
than even the Biden and Obama administration. I'll give you an example. This Memorandum of
Understanding that has just been published to end the war in Iran, the number of people who
had seen that document in the White House and U.S. government, microscopic, tiny number of people
before it was published. People, you know, you have people in the intelligence community
that we talk to who are essentially trying to monitor this White House almost like it's a
foreign government. They have no idea what's going on, and there are conversations that are happening
within such a small group that's running the government. When you have people like Steve
Whitkoff and Jared Kushner, you know, doing business, they're really unstaffed. They don't
rely on staff much. They basically are these sort of free agents. Which is, I mean, it's really
unheard of from other administrations. Normally, if you're a negotiator, you would have a team of
experts in the field traveling with you, going over documents behind the scenes.
But that's how you get these. I mean, we have a scene in the book where Steve,
so Whitkoff goes to meet Putin alone, which is stunning, right? He's sitting in the room
with Vladimir Putin. Steve Whitkoff has no experience in diplomacy.
The ambassador's not there.
He's a real estate friend of Trump's, and he's suddenly the Russia envoy. Spends three hours
with Putin alone. And then we have this scene in the book where he's sitting with Putin in Moscow,
and Putin is drawing this doodle of, you know, a three plus two, which is the territorial
arrangement, giving territory to Russia, freezing certain territory. And Whitkoff says,
can you sign that for me? And Putin signs his signature, and Whitkoff takes it home and gets
it framed. But again, it's this, there is a contempt for expertise. There is a contempt for,
it's deeper than contempt for the deep state. It's basically anyone who's been doing this
for a long time, you're probably, you know, not up to it.
Well, it gets to the next paragraph, which I want to just read to people. You say,
to the extent he still cared, there's the difference of this term versus the last.
To the extent he still cared about polling at all, he was seeing far fewer polls than
during his first term. His advisors knew he was not receptive to being briefed on harsh realities.
In his second term, unlike his first, he was willing to take breathtaking risks,
risks that could throw not only his presidency, but the Republican Party and the entire world
into chaos and carnage. More than ever before as president, he was operating on pure gut instinct.
Which makes what happened with Iran, it makes sense.
Yes. I mean, and we really describe that in great detail in the book,
just about the lead up to the Iran war.
Talk about what you've learned, because it's not as if, you know, we played endless montages
of him saying, oh, nobody briefed me on that. Nobody suggested that. He was briefed.
It's not true. I mean, a couple of things are the case. Number one, he was always more hawkish
about Iran than members of his own team. Now, we do not see a world where he would have gone
to war against Iran in term one, but he has always been different about Iran. That's why
there was the Soleimani strike in 2020, which many people around him did not agree with,
not think was a good idea, thought it was too big a risk. Now, he was much more aligned with
Benjamin Netanyahu than members of his own team wanted to see, and yet the evidence was there
throughout 2024 and then afterwards. He was informed of the options. There was really no
one on his team who thought this was a great idea. The person who really was very vocal about it
with the president was J.D. Vance, and it cost J.D. Vance with the president,
but the president was informed of various scenarios of what could happen and downsides
by Dan Cain, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, one of which was munitions depletion,
one of which was the possibility that the Strait of Hormuz would have been closed.
And the president's own secretary of state and CIA director examined these scenarios
about regime change that Benjamin Netanyahu had portrayed in this remarkable meeting in
the Situation Room to President Trump on February 11th, and one of them said it was farcical.
The other said, I think we can say this on air is bullshit, was of Marco Rubio's quote.
The president knew all of this, and he still wanted to go ahead and try this.
You ask yourself the question, how do we get into a situation where
we have dangerously low supplies of critical long-range munitions? This is a national crisis,
national emergency, actually, in terms of our supplies of interceptors, missile interceptors,
long-range weapons. Well, if you're Donald Trump and you have a gut instinct that this war's going
to be over like that, those questions become, who cares? You asked the president if there had
ever been an American president as powerful as him. You're kind of setting a nice layup right
there. He brought out a list of historical figures. This is from the book. Alexander the
Great, the Caesars, William the Conqueror. They didn't have airplanes, right? You couldn't travel
around. This is the president talking. Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Tamerlane, Napoleon, he said
with relish, Hitler, Mao, Stalin. These leaders maintained power through fear, he said. Who would
ever do a thing like that, right? Trump lingered on the document's central argument that each
leader, however fearsome in his day, had no global reach. Their power was local, but his was not.
It's remarkable. So we asked the question because, number one, the war against Iran had started just
a few weeks earlier. And number two, he had been boasting publicly about how no other president
would do the things that he had done. And he had said to Tucker Carlson, at some point, I'm the
most powerful president that ever lived. I'm paraphrasing. So we put the question to him
about how he sees it. I think both of us found it one of the most astonishing moments we've ever had
with Trump because he hands us this document and he says it was written by a historian.
And the opening line says, you know, Donald Trump is the most powerful man who's ever
existed on the planet. And it goes on to compare him to all those people you named,
some of the great monsters of history, you know, the most ruthless dictators and conquerors of
history. And there was no moral dimension to it. The only point was power. And the point was he has
power, but it was something he wanted us to understand a slightly more subtle point, which
was in the document, which was, it's not just that I control the US military and the most powerful
economy in the world, the most powerful technology in the world, it's that I'm willing to use the
power. And that was the assessment. And it was very interesting because he was relishing that
company. And one thing that we've been toying with in our reporting and sort of trying to
understand as we go through this book is just to try to understand why is this term so different
from the last term? And there are many reasons for that. But one of them is Trump himself is
far less reactive to domestic politics. Like his aides are trying to get him interested in the
midterm elections. He's not looking at polls in the way he used to. Not the way he used to.
It's not totally binary. He really doesn't care that much. It's small stuff. He, again,
essentially told this. I mean, it was handed to us.
By the way, the historian he's talking about is the golf caddy.
Former golf caddy. For Gary Player.
A couple of other details I just want to get in. You go in to talk to him on the 13th day of the
Iran war. What's on his desk? What is he pouring over?
So when we walk in, he's holding these pictures of maple trees. And he starts talking about how
he's installing maple trees around the White House complex.
I'm good at buying trees.
I'm good at buying trees. Then he wants us to look at his ballroom designs,
which he shows lots of people. And he starts talking about the columns. And
one side is in honor of Athens. Another is Rome. This is what he's focused on.