WafflePod #1: The Rolex System and the $1000 Backlash

Right so sitting here with Toby Davis now before we start this just as an explainer for people Toby you live in Canada you is it all right to talk about what you would do you work with before or is that yeah yeah I think they're okay with it I think it's public domain so yeah I don't know if yeah there's a few people that I can't but I don't think I've mentioned that or if I have done I've just been like don't mention it. All right so why don't we do this why don't we so what's happening is that Toby is editing for me I've got two Davises right I've got my friend Stuart. Funnily enough my uncle is called Stuart as well I have an uncle Stuart. Oh really? Yeah but it's not him it's not him it's another one. That was just going to freak me out then because I couldn't remember who put us in touch which is another thing but so Stuart Davis edits my podcast for free which I'm just eternally grateful for and he's a beautiful guy and then you do this at the moment and you're helping me edit so basically we can kind of put stuff out and and and then we you know found out that we get on very well and so why don't we start doing stuff together which is great and this is one of those things so it's just gonna be us just chatting about kind of news-ish but what's been going on whether it's the channel with stuff we've noticed in Magic or maybe out of Magic but also why don't you just let me know because probably stuff I don't know but who you working with before and you're a little sort of potted history of you who is Toby Davis? Who is he? What does Google say? Don't Google it. Let's have a look. So yeah I most people have probably seen my work but they don't probably know it was me so like I think Dan is probably the main person so Dan Madison was probably the main person that I'm probably known for with most things either appearing in stuff or working behind the scenes and a lot like camera stuff or projects something like that just because we used to live so close and it kind of worked out there and then who else? Vanishing Inc done quite a bit for just certain project master classes stuff like that whether that be the odd bit of filming but quite a lot of editing now that I've been over here since that and then more recently Jack Rhodes we've just started doing some stuff with him and yeah so I think their kind of main ones we've done like Lee Thompson, Matt Wright, Tom Peterson yeah then we did like some Murphy's stuff did a bit with Illusionists like yeah all sorts of stuff so it was kind of one of them where I kind of do a lot of video stuff and magic bits and whatever people need really so I just work towards it and do something. I feel very grateful. Who put us in touch? I can't remember. Anthony. Anthony? Anthony Heaton you were at Sheffield judging competition together weren't you? That's it it's one of those awful ADHD things where I remember the conversation and just the other day I was going it's just gone who was it and yeah so thank you we're too grateful catchy so um so yeah so here we are and and we've been having these conversations kind of off off that's almost like podcasty conversations we're like we should start recording it. We're sending enough voice notes to each other. I know I know. And they're always so long and it's like it could just be you know it's three minutes and I'm like that could have been ten seconds could have been a message a probably Toby underscore underscore Davis D-A-V-I-E-S and that's probably it really. I have a website if people want to check that out. I mean there's not a lot on there hasn't been updated in a while. I am gonna get around to it but like anything when is he gonna get around to it? Websites and this is a different subject don't go both of us are going to be in a nightmare staying on subject but the thing with websites and all that stuff now I think it's becoming slightly less important obviously you need it than having footage and being able to show what you can do. I think with AI now people know that you can bang up a website. That's the thing and I think you can look at your Instagram as a portfolio like that's mostly what I have that one and then have a different one as well for that or what I'll do is I have just basically just YouTube and all the videos are on there and then if somebody reaches out to me I'll build a custom playlist to what I think shows what I can do for them as best with what I've got really rather than just sticking all the videos there and nobody knows where to click anything. So yeah for me that's what's been working so far. Brilliant and so it's Toby underscore underscore Davis with an IES and I think that the new... I'll put it on screen now. Yeah well there's another job for you to do. Since I'll be editing this, there we go, why not. Just add it onto the list. The ever-growing list but the newsletter the important thing about that is people know it's not spam it's just I want to at some point not rely on Facebook algorithms for people to find the stuff we do that's it and if we ever sell anything imagine that if we ever make any money Toby we could actually tell people. That must be like having money. Imagine that. So talk about the big thing this week for me obviously and for us was the Rolex system and talking to Shane which was I felt very grateful for that and you know there was some controversy about that and we can't talk about as it should be the methods because that's kind of what he's selling but there was a load of kickback from it right and we know why you know that it was a and I want to question this in a minute but I'm seeing this from the perspective of someone that may have issues so it's Devils Advocates who's on my opinions really but it was kind of like hang on a minute thousand dollars for a PDF was one of the things the other thing was the you're charging me 40 quid or whatever to show me the thing at Blackpool and and I think there was also a feeling of it wasn't as he says in his own words it's not like everybody knew who he was he wasn't like a massive name he is in some respects we can talk about that. But you also didn't know even like the trailer or something there wasn't like a proper performance or a trailer or anything of it as well either so yeah yeah I think that was a massive thing that set people off. It set people off didn't it so what so your initial well let's we talk about the actual this we forget about the thousand dollar that the controversy and all that and just go what what did you think we have to talk around this of the effect so we were kindly you know provided it because we were talking about it and what did you think of it taking away the price and all that yeah I think I can see why to be fair it did set a few people off to start off with I think I mean it's got its ups and downs but I don't think it's abnormal to charge that price in this day and age I mean you know books come out with a single trick all limited edition books and the 300 quid 150 500 whatever so I think it's just the fact I mean we don't know who we you don't really know who he is in terms of a name so I don't think that helped and then although it did have good names associated to it like Weber and everything like that and Weber writes the intro of the book an introduction which is nice and gives you good high praise I think it's it's one of them like you know Jerome Finley was charging $1,000 for PDFs and stuff but he had a name he had a bit more of a reputation from it I do think it'd been probably a bit different if this had come out as a book how do you feel like if this had come out as a physical copy of a book for a trick do you think magicians would have still reacted the same way because it's a physical product yeah well so there's a lot there in there so the first of all I think some people like myself because I came into magic through magic and not I wasn't in involved in that mentalism world but I remember my friend Bob Bob Pierce Bob Percy rest in peace you tell me about mentalism he used to teach me clown right and he sounds just a sentence that needs qualifying doesn't it I was at circus school for two years in 1966 we used to get in his little cars that backfired and throw custard tarts at each other, custard pies, custard tarts anyway so he would tell me about mentalism I started getting into magic he was getting into mentalism and he would tell me about these books that were really expensive and the PDF they weren't PDFs they were mostly books and I'd be like really and yeah I've got a few and we're talking back in late 90s that he was paying 100 quid 200 quid and so that now you know now so you were talking about Jerome so is there a kind of tradition of this yeah so from what I remember like I remember back in the day like I bought some PDFs and stuff and you have to download this software to view it it wasn't like it didn't come down to just on a PDF and it was this essentially like a copyrighted software so it stops you from screenshotting it there'd be watermarks on the screen and stuff and this was before like computers are a little bit more better with software that you probably get around like these days but I think the thing is it's in this day and age now we're kind of reflect on PDFs as just a throwaway item isn't it it's like download it's just a $10 download it's just a $20 so I think by putting it as a PDF that's what might have affected it like it was a physical I mean if it did come as a printed book it'd be a very short a bit more of a pamphlet than a book that's the only thing because it's not long no but I don't think it needs to be I mean like when we get into it like what covered inside of it I think it goes into more than enough of what's in there there's maybe one or two little bits but yeah for the most part I think it covers it really well and you can tell it's being done and performed by somebody that has done this day in day out and he's gives you fallbacks he gives you out he gives you what happens if this happens and stuff like that which I think it's really good because then it's not just somebody that because anybody can write a PDF and just stick it on the internet yeah here's the thing so so that in your question about if it was a book so we've got kind of and nothing there will be people like me that aren't used to seeing that thing of things being that expensive the fact it was a Blackpool's interesting because you're surrounded by things that are expensive but because they're physical products you're selling physical products at Blackpool you're not getting that thing of a thousand quid yeah okay that's kind of more of an underground thing right ish and also it's funny if it's a physical book like you said it's going to be a small one and it would arguably seem more justified in price there is that and that thing of you know a thousand dollars for a PDF you're not paying PDF it's like that thing of our that that much it's like saying and I know it's not I'm not comparing it to a painting by the way but metaphorically I suppose it's like saying you know all that all that money for for a bit of cloth you know not say yeah I think it comes with that whole branding thing doesn't it yeah you don't you don't think about all that like at the end of the day a PDF still takes some process before it goes to print so but I think it's one of them that you've just got something physical in your hand it reduce the shareability that people probably associate with PDFs the the cheapness of it because you've got to read it on a device there's just something nice about having yeah physical quality of having a product in hand another thing that magicians are probably like is to know that they can resell it if they get a an actual physical copy of a book PDF once you pay for that you can't resell it or any of that so I think there's yeah there's a few pros and cons to each of it and just because it's like essentially a single trick or a single method or something I mean as I was explaining to you before like train tracking that was I think like 150 quid when that came out there were reselling for twice that three times that and that's just a one one method one trick routine or something but I think it's the same as this that is the toolbox you can apply it to anything that you want after that which is nice yeah and I think the whole thing about I think we the and I'm playing devil's advocate I'm trying to I'm not justifying it because I'm on anybody's side my opinion is that well we go to my opinion a minute because I think it's okay to share that but just that thing of you're not buying a PDF in the way that when you buy a book you're not buying paper in the way when you buy an mp3 you're not buying before you're buying what's on it right what's it you're buying the contents you're buying the ideas you're buying that's what people are sharing so I don't my opinion is I never would say that much for a PDF but I would it's a lot you know before I knew anything about it I didn't go 700 quid which is a thousand dollars yeah for a PDF of course they did but then the thought is well you know okay well let's see what's on it first because if it's let's say it goes an extreme let's say if it's someone's you know it's Copperfield's selling a secret to a method that nobody else knew that changes the game of magic and I'm doing this hypothetically I don't think it is that but even if it is that that's what you're buying right you're not then it's not just a PDF I think it's to say like you know look at Scott Alexander he used to sell all his stuff like yeah as like full workable routines scripting everything props like you got it all tracks to some stuff and everything and I think it's kind of just the same thing like this guy just because they did it on a video and you needed props or at all like for this you are still getting somebody's act you're getting a workable scripted thing that somebody's got in there's like yeah and I think that's why it can justify that price because of what it is you know it's a workable bit but it's a it's a it's a staple piece in the show and so again going for the sake of balance you've got the other thing which I do understand I'm just trying to think why if I was at Blackpool and I didn't know anything and someone said there's a 40 quid to show you the thing. Do you know how many Greg sausage rolls that is? I'd rather go there and see that and have more entertainment. I would have! That totally is me making a joke then but my default would always be like that's a grand how many whatever it is can I buy with it yeah that's it that's like yeah so much it's nearly like one deck of luxury cards these days yeah yeah it's I think that is that was a big problem with it because you're not seeing a performance you're not there was a lot of cryptic about what you're buying at least with a product you kind of can read a display of kind of like what it is do you know I mean you know what you're getting this card is going to jump to the top whereas this was so open and you'd never see a video nobody was really talking about how you get from point a to point b or what you're doing it was just very much kind of like a statement that was very broad of you can reveal anything without asking them questions without them speaking at all no electronics it sounded like real mind reading do you not mean it was the closest thing to the perfect thing and you know it's not going to be that because we're magicians like you know it's just dental gum and freaking glue in it right half the time yeah it's the paper compared to clipping a lousy band but that was but that again going back to and I think that's it there is a sort of before all the beautiful packaging that that magic got it was very normal and again I'm not comparing the two things because we're not talking most of the time about a grand but it was very normal you expected that when you bought a thing physically it was going to look incredibly disappointing but yeah that was so so the norm that you kind of bypass that very quickly or I would I go all right tap it I know it's going to do something good because I've seen the trick I've seen what it does which again you hadn't in this situation so there's that and I'm trying to put myself in the mind of someone had I not spoken to Shay or had I known nothing about him or had I not spoken to Mustafa who's the actual person that said no it's pretty you know you should check it out and Mustafa Bajuli from Illusionary and Glyphs and all that had I not known any of that stuff and just heard about it to be totally honest on a thought who's this arrogant prick you know trying to get me to spending 50 and now I don't think that by the way at all which I think I think it could have been marketed better I think that's probably the biggest thing of like there could have been some kind of a very edited performance but it could have been explained at the beginning why it was so edited but we could have seen at least one side of it or a little bit of the cut out of the conversation you know not the full jigsaw but little bits of it which would have helped massively I think from seeing that I get the whole why you wanting to hide it you know we know why because you can not backtrack the method but well we can say it's an anagram isn't it and I think if you watch yeah so if you watch any person performing an anagram enough you're able to work out how it all works yeah so I can see why because you know you're charging a thousand dollars for this so you want to protect it for everybody that's made their investment yeah and he and he performed the very rudimentary version of it and I think that's the that's the thing about this and I was really glad when you came back to me because we we had no reason to be dishonest this was a private conversation this isn't but this was and actually potentially could because we could edit this but I don't want to edit this bit but the private conversation of you left me a voice message you go right I've read it and I was like right and you went I really like it and I was like good I'm glad you said that because you're a performer and that's what we didn't say at the beginning you are a performer you do comedy club you've been performing for a long time and you saw the potential and I think what as with all good mentalism again take the price out of it and all the controversy at the moment if you had never seen Acidus and you read that you go let's say you've never seen a peak right you've never seen a peak and you look at it and I remember feeling this and going what I just look at it when they're not looking what and you've you've said that this is the most powerful thing in the little intro and now you say what you're doing you get them to write in the corner do you know what I mean it all sounds rubbish and then when you do it you go that's this I have a card to shoe routine um I don't know if we spoke about this and I told you about it probably not I don't know so I have a card to shoe routine I'll tell you more about it later on um but uh Lee Thompson really good friend um we did a gig last not last year before whenever it was um and he seen me do this card to shoe routine he's like I like that and then he saw me do it regularly at this gig just all the time in and out of these shoes and he's like you need to write that up and I'm the exact same I'm like yeah but when you know the method which he knows the method is like and he's like yeah but there's so much more to it than that and I'm like is there though and that's just why I never have because I just feel like it's the same thing if you just get it you go oh is that all it is I think of this yeah there is more to it especially when you look at it in the context of what the Rolex system is what you can do with that you know um I think Ben Earl's stuff's a big example of this you know he'll take a top change and it's so much more than just a top change because you're not just buying the top change you're buying everything that's to do with it and how it all works and the the whole performance of it the little nuances that it's been you've got from a performer that's worked it it's the same with this as you say the basic version you can reveal some stuff but as we were sending your notes back and forth or you could do with this and you could do with that and you know combine it with another routine and you've got this and yeah it just opens up into a bigger piece and you show like a good staple that you could get a solid you know in the right hands I wouldn't be surprised if somebody just do this with a few extras and it'd be a 45 minute set yeah and that's it and I think that what this is and again it can be marketing but part of me does think what this is is a it's a tool that can be developed and a skill that can be learned and but when you do read it and he even says this he says that it's something people that see the basic version think it's cool thing and then later they come back and go oh you could do this and I thought is that hype well it doesn't have to be because that's in the pdf that I potentially already bought for that money but I think there's always going to be anybody that pays that money straight away has to know that the criteria for that is it's it's it's a professional performance tool right so if you're doing shows constantly then it's not I'm not on about a hobbyist here and I am a hobbyist most of the time of magic so if I'm at Blackpool I'm not performing I'm doing corporate for a couple of grand minimum of pop or whatever like that and I'm just then why would I consider something that I have been told is a professional performance thing and by the way I'm not saying anybody's done this this is just in my so that's that then you've got the thing of the oh he's charging this much that much and and I would say but nobody's making anybody pay for it nobody's making you yeah spend the $50 to see it I wouldn't dream of spending $50 to see it because if I didn't so I think of it as an interesting conversation it's in the pub and sort of going have you seen you know that's one thing but actually starting to become outraged online I think it's a good discussion online I think jokerly but to actually be be uh angry like properly angry I just partly thinks well isn't that what makes it all interesting and isn't nobody had to buy anything so yeah and I think also just people were jumping on and talking about it when they didn't even know what it was like they'd not seen the performance or they were just hearing like second hand from what it's just Chinese whispers going down and down and it's like yeah that's it that's why we're not getting it and then you know by the time the hundredth person's commented it's completely different from what you're actually hearing and and I felt when I talked to him that part of me was expecting a kind of justification which is what it was but I wasn't expecting to feel so that it was so honest not that I would expect him to be dishonest but it really I really felt that he as a human being he was hurt even though he said he is thick-skinned and you know he felt hurt and you can tell he was I don't mean he was whining I don't think he was you know saying oh poor me and being a victim I think he was saying he was you know it hurt him he put his heart and soul into it which I do believe he did you know and you might go it's a pdf that is only this many pages with big writing I'm not about that I'm on about the actual thing and there weirdly enough there is a kind of honesty about charging that much knowing that it's going to piss people off knowing that there's going to be a load of people that aren't going to be happy but it's mattering enough to you to still do it and I think he even though he did say he thought it would he thought people would love it and and and thought people would just be really excited about it which I which I kind of was the idea um but I don't mean that was arrogance I think that's just because he really he really loves it um and I think that the the backlash has kind of even though he's taken it quite well in one way he hasn't kind of stepped in I don't think and kind of kicked off yeah jumped on the bandwagon and tried to defend every comment I think like as I said you know if somebody else had put this out the exact same thing if it had about like Pete Turner's name on it for example nobody would have said anything we would be in this situation I don't think so and I think it's partly because we don't know who he is really and then as I say the marketing as well but I think that's just a massive if you if you can't see the product then you need something else to get me invested into it and that's like a name you know I mean like I'll you'd buy a mystery box from Rolex for example you know just because you know the brand's reputable or something like that and you know oh well I'm gonna get a good quality watch or whatever and everything like that whereas you know if somebody's selling one on the street on your mystery box but you don't know who he is you know you're not going to pay that money and I think that's the same thing it's the mystery box it's the magic mystery the other day I've never really understood that thing imagine shops do it don't they well I kind of do understand it but partly thinks just the way I'm getting rid of shite isn't it yeah so it's like I'm gonna spend 20 quid on a trick that I know I'm gonna like because I want it or I'll tell you what I'll get that bag of shite I don't know yeah I mean you know you're too good to go all the time yeah oh I do love it too good to go as you know as you know I'm loathe to talk about it because people I want to keep the numbers down that's what we want is the forget the money I'll tell you I'll tell you later about the too good to go I got yesterday oh I went for a delivery option I went I got I got some anyway I knew this podcast didn't go that way yeah so we've got so what I don't want what I don't want people to do is to it's almost sounds like we are we've got like an affiliate thing we're not trying however I do get it I do I'm not saying everybody should be on board with it I think the conversation is very interesting and people got within their right to go what the **** however I would like people to stop commenting on things they don't know ******* anything about I know it's just like you're telling me oh I know there's a model this group that's a right thing but but it's it's not when I put the podcast out I put the podcast out and all I did was let let let shay speak and I thought he'd be very eloquent I thought he had he was I liked him not saying everybody should and that's fine but people have commented clearly not listening to it not many people by the way I mean it's pretty much been totally fine but you know I've had things like someone said something like what do we need a podcast to sell a product and I'm like no we don't and that's not that's nothing to do with what this is so you kind of and there was quite a long post and I thought well if you take the time to write the parts why don't you just go into it on double speed and you'd have done that in the same time I'm not angry but I wasn't angry um but what the point being and it goes even I'd say even with the Yigal Messika stuff all that is I don't like to advise people but I'll just say what my life is less stressful for me because I try not to comment on anything I don't know about and I don't know about a lot so I've got yeah I didn't comment informally with a friend ago but to kind of make a big point and make a big stand and make personal digs and I'm not saying it's happened here I'm just saying genuinely I see that a lot of people and I go it doesn't sound like you've looked into this enough to kind of start being judged during execution you know and I'm not and I think as well even like what we've been talking about of knowing other products that are in the same genre or either could be similar to the similar effect so as I said like train tracking I think that's very close to this or the Joshua Quinn thing something like that they're very close but we can compare the pros and cons to each of them and it's the same with Ring Wallet Watch isn't it from Ben you know that had a little bit but what's the comparisons because there's so many comparisons for different stuff in that genre so if you know all the others you know what you're looking out for and the good and the bad between everything yeah and I and I think the key is don't don't buy the things you think are overpriced or that are cheeky or if you think something takes the piss have a laugh about it get get angry with with with your friends but and again sounds like I'm giving people I'm telling people what to do I'm talking to myself here which I do this the all the time when I feel something online and I want to get or I just go I think what's the consequence of this is it going to create a ---- storm or does something need to be you know does something need to be said and and I'm not saying that's the case or not in in this but I do think it became something that was the built up without maybe prior knowledge so I'm glad Shay spoke to to me even personally so I could get some clarity on it and I'd love to know what people's feelings are yeah as long as they're nice and they don't I think it was a very open podcast really like if anything like that give you more information about the product what we really wanted from the start than anything um and I think that would have been nice but yeah like he really opened up to it obviously he didn't have to when he explained he went into full depth of everything and you know straight from beginning to end with it all I think which was was good talking about like the development the process and up until where we are today really with it all yeah we should have done an affiliate thing shouldn't we because if you think a thousand dollars if we got a percentage of that that's like four two go to good two good to go bags each day we we could have written a hundred blogs everywhere scattered stuffed them with keywords and scattered around the internet and done an affiliate yeah but I think we'll start a pdf out of our own yeah just do that so I know the big complaint was like it's a one in eight type of a thing really obviously he does go over about that in the book um about the the one in eight plot you know it's it's magician's type of a thing isn't it you know you've got the in the hands which is one in five mean how many people do esp card work you know it's still one in five or whatever um so I think the one in eight isn't too bad really because you're still getting such a strong hit and what he can do is he can expand upon it I think that's the main thing to remember isn't it it's like you can pick one in eight categories for a lot of stuff as well he tells you how to change it and apply it to your own stuff and come up with your own rolex style system I suppose um but I think the one in eight is still something that can be is overlooked a lot really with how big it is yeah and as he said which I'd never I suppose I have thought about it before but he said you know people saying it's only one night you know so yeah it that's again that's a good that's a good point right so you got you got uh let's say before all the other dice came out the only way you could buy the dice was uh labco right really was that the I'm not yeah I think they had the original well I'm not probably stick one of the early ones didn't they went on a thing oh they were a lot I remember back in the day so all right well let's take that as a as a thing so you've got yeah that was like a thousand fifteen hundred maybe more wasn't it we got one in six for a grand right yeah so that's it that's a good like if you're not getting any size the options like you still do a book test and what's that one in ten thousand well why don't you just say to him think of any word in the world all right if that's where you want him to it's down to the performance isn't it really like yes and I don't think that by the way so I think it's yeah but you're right it's that thing of it it's those constraints are I'm very conscious that I'm sounding like I'm just really really sticking up for it I don't want to I just this is genuinely my opinion and people don't have to agree I don't think it will say I don't think it comes without and it's definitely not for everybody not in terms of as we say of professionals for paying that price or it being in a show as it's mentioned you can do this one-on-one you can do it one-on-two or you can do this for a whole audience which I think is the strongest part like that whole thing just imagining doing that for everybody is amazing but I think one of the big things to think about is it very much depends on who the performer is and how they perceive themselves into the audience so as Shay says like he's a psychic I think this really applies well to his performance what he reveals along the way and how he gets from point a to point b whereas many magicians these days they like to use the whole body language psychological subtleties all that ---- and it's like sounds like I'm knocking it I used to say it myself like yeah like but yeah that type of disaster I just can't I struggle to talk and just and I think that's the thing of like they're trying to get across but for me and we might have to cut this part out but I think for me like I'd really find it difficult to explain the vision that you say at the end because it's not as accurate enough whereas I'm doing the little bits of mentalism that I had it wouldn't be very much about the psychic stuff it would be more of an accurate like the word you're thinking of is cheese so I'd want something more like that but you can do that as well which I still think is really good you can still get that initial the word that they're thinking of especially in an audience like you imagine just doing it one innate audience you're thinking of this word you're people yes yes and and that's where I think it makes sense it makes it yeah no I keep that in I think yeah because basically he he gives a reading on based on and he says this it's it's yeah so you've got the you've got the and this is genuinely with mentalism thing I think you've got the the uh what do they call it not this association um you're having a mental block but when you're not just giving the word you're giving the thing that's associated with it right so instead of saying oh the question you're thinking of if you answer it and so you're not you're not telling them you're thinking of this you're you're saying here's here's an answer to that question that you're thinking of that is connected to this category so therefore it's essentially a broader Q&A isn't it like Q&A you'd be like what am I wearing and you could do that what's in my pocket whereas this is very much kind of um asked me a somewhat of an open-ended question you know could it be about the future type of a thing and I will or this type one of the categories and then you are telling them what they they think from that yeah so you're telling them that you know yeah you know yeah and you are giving them and then the question that they choose to ask based in that category you are you are answering that some way but that's the thing that I don't think some people will click with it's not for everybody is that type of a way I think you're right and I think but there's also no reason you couldn't link that with um did you ever see Ken Dines whisper no you talked about this you said to me yeah I think that would be a really good way to do it like if you're in an audience as well um that moment of just walking up to somebody and just whispering in the rear and just seeing their reaction because you are going to hit you're going to get that and it's very accurate even if it was just a throwaway moment or something you know added on to everything I think this for this you can perform the Rolex system exactly as he says in the book you know there's a few different versions but for the whole audience as he says but if you linked that with other tricks um or other methods and stuff like that I think you've got such a strong toolbox of different stuff uh to work with whisper and that Michael Maria to Z I think it was called or 95 one of them I can't remember um stuff like that I think if you linked a lot of things you know pendulum work I think it'll go really nice with pendulum stuff as well because the way you're getting the information could be the next step up oh I'm using the pendulum to read this so as he said I'm using it as an antenna doesn't it um and that could be your way and then you had a nice idea of talking about it like that so yeah I think there's different ways that you can adapt yourself but it's just very niche for the performers and it's for the right performer but then that comes back to it makes it difficult for the performer to know that it's theirs without spending the money because they don't know what they're getting and back to square one and the vicious circle continues absolutely and and I say that I you know my thing is I suppose I'm closing with that I totally get it I'm not saying it's brilliant everybody should get it I'm totally not saying that at all but what I what I am saying and it's my point of view is that what it isn't is a scam I think it's genuinely something that will work for a lot of people it won't work for everybody it's an expensive investment and you're not making an investment with certainty there that then if you're you're gambled really in it you know and yes and there are flaws of it but what it isn't it is a scam I just generally don't think it is yeah that's it I think it's it's does what it says on the tin at the end of the day like yeah I mean the tin's difficult to read but yeah yeah you're there yeah yeah right but you know you got it yeah and so I'd love people's opinion do genuinely you know send us emails we'll do we'll have a special email for this at some point when we put steve at stevefalcon.com or steve at onlinemagic.co and we'll both send them on to Toby and and the next time we do this we'll answer questions comments and and you know just keeping on the channel Real Magic Review make sure your notifications are on if you want to keep up to speed and that isn't the end I just want to say that in regards to that so let's I'll tell you what let's leave it there um like I said everybody do the do the newsletter thing so we can let you know when things go live stevefalcon.com full-fledged newsletter we'll get a proper page sorted out for this but uh yeah thanks mate that was great yeah that was good interesting to talk about all and uh catch you soon yeah all right take care all right see you in a bit bye