Trump gets rude awakening on the reality of the limits of his power

Joining me now is Maggie Haberman, she's a White House correspondent for the New York Times and co-author of the incredible new book, Regime Change. There are so many things to learn from this book. I know you've been talking about it, hundreds of thousands of people have bought this book or more. Congratulations on that. Thank you, Jim. Thanks for having me. Of course, thanks for being here. It tells us a lot about how Trump thinks about things. I was so interested also in how you've talked about how he's changed or how the White House has changed from the first to the second term. I just read an excerpt from your book. It's one that has really stuck with me about the scene very early on in the war with Iran, when Trump seemed more focused on picking out maple trees for the White House than he was on the war. I mean, you describe it as when you all went in to talk to him. I just wonder, as we're kind of all watching what he's focused on, as there's a lot happening in this country, how do you reflect on that moment? What do you think it means or what should it tell people? It really was extraordinary, Jen, and it actually didn't strike us. I think I shouldn't speak for Jonathan. I know for me, it did not strike me as quite as remarkable as it clearly was later on in reflection while we were sitting there. It was it was a stunning moment. We both had many with him. And I did note that he posted about maple trees last night, having had that be the focus of his attention when we first got there. But as you noted, we wrote that the war was just not at all. We were 17 days in. We thought we would see maps on, you know, of the Middle East on the Resolute desk. And instead, there were these these tree pictures underneath that were pictures of his ballroom designs. And he was very proud of the columns and they would be bigger than the ones at the Supreme Court. And some were in honor of Rome, some in honor of Athens. And about 15 minutes into this conversation, we asked him a question about presidential power, because he had been telling people that he was the most powerful president that had ever been in the U.S. And we asked him if that was his view. And he responded by having his ever present aide, Natalie Harp, who sits along the wall of the Oval Office in almost every meeting, get us this printout that he said was brought by a historian. And it was a friend of Gary Player's, the golfer. And the basic premise of this printout was that Donald Trump is the most powerful man who's ever walked the planet. And then it goes on to list history's, you know, most notable one name conquerors and monsters. Alexander the Great, William the Conqueror, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Tamerlane, the Caesars. And Trump is reading from this list, as he calls them, the top 10. And there's no moral component. He was just reveling in being in the company of these powerful people. And what he wanted us to understand was that the takeaway here was that they had power, but he had more. And he was willing to use it. And that was clearly something that he thought Iran was going to understand, that the historian was not a historian. It was Gary Player's former caddy. But what was remarkable to us is, other than him reading this list, it basically was the premise of our book, you know, the most powerful person to walk the planet aside. The idea was about how focused he is on power and expanding power. But he has now gotten himself into a situation in Iran where he believed this was going to be quick, based on his power, based on his gut feeling that things will always work out. He thought they were a paper tiger, based on how last year's 12-day war went. And it's not going that way. No, no, it's not. And a lot of people I know from your reporting and from others have told him that along the way, that it wouldn't go that way. Let's talk about this jet, because you also write about the jet. You've talked about the jet. It's now, of course, back in the news, because he rode the jet there and then didn't ride it back. There's a whole backstory of this. I think the question I'm curious about is, it seems clear to anybody that anybody who's giving him a gift like this would want something in return. I assume he's thought about that and maybe doesn't care about it. But what should we understand about that particular piece of it? And also, the notion that it wasn't going to be able to fly back. Do you think that was understood, it didn't have the capacity, or what do you think is going on there? There's a couple of things. In terms of what the expectation is on this gift, what we say in the book is, and we spent a lot of time trying to figure this piece out, this plane was a used plane. The Qataris had been trying to sell it for a while. It was initially, according to our reporting, supposed to be sold to the U.S. government for maybe $150 million, $200 million, because it's an old plane, because it's a used plane. Not as old as Air Force One, but it is not a new model. And what we were told by a senior administration official was that it was suddenly becoming a gift, and this was something discussed, quote, at the POTUS level. And so that suggested to us, these were conversations between the president and his advisors, and it suddenly became something that was being given to him, not just for the U.S. government, but that he plans to take with him, as you know, when he leaves. And most people who we talk to have a hard time believing he is going to just let it sit in a museum, or, I mean, his library is not an actual, it's a skyscraper. It's likely to be a hotel. So putting all of that aside, what the expectation is, it's hard to know, because there are so many overlapping business ties between the Trump relatives, between Trump's top advisors, and the Qataris and others in the Mideast, that it's very hard to tell where one begins and one ends. And so, you know, whether this is a specific thing or a long-term relationship piece, it's hard to say. The second piece, though, that you're asking about, which is the security piece, it was always told to Jonathan and me that this was going to be on a rushed schedule to get this plane out, that they were going to work to get it up to security code. We don't know what we don't know. But based on everything we have heard, and based on your colleagues' reporting, based on our colleagues' reporting that the Secret Service was concerned, if you were bringing in the older Air Force One, which was known to be well-fitted with security equipment for that traveling Oval Office, as you describe it, to survive all kinds of safety problems, there was clearly a reason why that plane was used, with the shades down, as they were flying out, which is also known as a security measure. And ultimately, they met up with the other plane. I think that there is a lot more we are going to learn, but we know that hundreds of millions of dollars were spent already to upgrade this plane, the current one now, the Qatari plane, to make it appropriate for the president. And we still don't know exactly what that looks like or what's missing. You and Jonathan know so well about the inner functionings of this White House and the people around Trump. One of the things I've been curious about is, we know from your reporting and others' reporting that everyone isn't exactly thrilled in the White House about Trump's focus on so much time and energy on these vanity projects and on all these construction projects, given everything that's happening in the world. To me, having worked for two presidents for like seven chiefs of staff or something, I'm so curious about the role of Suzy Wiles, because every chief of staff I've worked for would go into the Oval Office and say, what the hell are we doing? This needs to stop. And that may not work with Trump, and I'm guessing that's what you're going to tell me. But tell us more about her role, and where does she put a stop to things, or is that not really her role at all? So a couple of things. One, to your point about the vanity projects, he is so determined to leave some kind of an indelible imprint on Washington, where it can't be removed when he leaves, that people will always have to sort of look at the ballroom he built or the arch he built or on and on. In terms of the chief of staff, we describe in the book how much more so than in term one. You have meetings that are just these rolling bull sessions, where we describe this pretty incredible high-level national security defense briefing in the Oval Office, where the guy who's putting in the stone pavers, I guess it was, or, you know, stones that are going over the rose garden grass, just walks in. And it's like he has Oval Office walk-in privileges. He's just showing the president that's in the middle of this significant briefing. And much of the day is like that around the president now. They're very good at keeping secrets when they want to, which is something else that we talk about. And that is partly a function of Susie Wiles. But what we describe in the book is a chief of staff who does not try to manage the president's time, possibly thinking that it's a wasted venture, to your question. She has been more successful at managing that team than any Trump chief of staff has been at managing the world around him. But the reality is he wants to do what he wants to do. And so, yes, I am going to tell you what you knew I was going to say, which is that it only works so far. And in the same way that everybody has to make decisions about whether they're going to argue with him when they work for him, that he's telling these, you know, fantastical stories about events that just didn't happen. They came to me with tears in their eyes or this or that. They make a decision. If they're going to stay, they're not going to challenge everything. But he has very, very low tolerance for being challenged, far more so now than before. That seems very clear. Maggie Haberman, your book is so good. It's so good because for a range of reasons, it helps people really understand the scope of it. It's not just about one week for people who haven't read it yet. It's really about the first term, the second term, and kind of how he's different now, which I think is important for people to know, even if they don't like the guy, frankly. But thank you again for being here tonight. Appreciate it. I really appreciate you having me, Jim. Thanks.