Creating a space for men to connect and heal

Detroit, welcome to the show where we talk about all the good happening in and around the city, from inspiring people, places, things to do. Our very first guest is going to be a part of an incredible event that is happening with the Sasha Center. We have Dr. Spencer Murray joining us now. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with us, Dr. Murray. Hey, well, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Thank you. Absolutely. So tell us about this Culture Cures and History Heals. This is the event that is happening with Sasha Center. What is the role that you play in this? Well, yeah, it's a big event. Let me say first, you know Sasha Center and the first goal of this event is to raise awareness for sexual assault, right, and discourage sexual assault. And they know that in doing that and bringing awareness that they have to bring men in as well. Men have to be part of that conversation. And so I've been a part of Sasha Center for about 16 years since they started. And now I have no harm with National Organization for Healing and Redefining Manhood. And so they know that men have to be part of that conversation, part of the healing, part of the community, with men being primary perpetrators, not all men, of course. And so the work that no harm does is talking about reducing harm by restoring wholeness. And so they know that men have to be whole and healing is certainly a part of that. And so that's some of the work I do. So it's a great fit. It's a natural fit for us to be part of this part of this event. Yes, I love that so much. And I know it's important to make sure our men are a part of this. I love the take that they're doing. They're taking basketball fundamentals to talk about these important conversations. What are your thoughts on that? How do you think that'll draw people in and make them more open to have this conversation? Well, you know, sports is always going to bring men together, right? And then when you talk about basketball, too, you're talking about any sports, really. You're talking about teamwork, character, integrity, all those things. And I certainly like basketball because I like this role of, you know, everybody has different roles, but assist, to be an assist leader. You have those people in the NBA who are assist leaders and those who play basketball. So in this sense, I think we certainly have to assist other men in becoming whole and certainly assist women. You know, I think we can't be siloed in how we address this discourage of sexual assault and violence towards women. And so we have to assist each other and come together as community. And so this event is talking about culture and community, because we can't do that alone. What heals one, heals all. What harms one, harms all. And so we come together in community to do that. Sports is the way to do that. You know, we'll have some basketball themes. We'll have some free throw trailers out there. But that will bring men together and bring people together for this. Young men, older men like myself, all type of men to come together, but in the spirit of healing and bringing awareness. So it's perfect. It's a perfect theme, yeah. And you talk about you can't heal one without the other. What's some of the healing that you think needs to happen within the culture? You know, there's so much healing. I think I always say that you cannot heal what you continue to hide. And so I think we have to be transparent about what goes on in our communities, what goes on in our relationships, what goes on in our families. And some of the healing means we have to get to the roots of those things. And sometimes that's hard work. And so in order to do that, we do that together. We don't have to be isolated and we shouldn't be isolated in doing that. And so that's the type of that's the type of healing that needs to happen. And when we can be honest with each other, when we can be transparent with one another, and let me say this big word vulnerable with one another, then we can invite each other into this healing. We really, you know, we really need that. We always need that. Right. But certainly we need that in healing relationships and doing the intervention work I do, which I do a lot. And so, yeah, this is the time. This is the time to do it. So, hey, this event, this event, right, this event won't heal everything. But this is an event for us to come together and have those conversations, have those activities, do that tour and understand culture and all that, you know, knowing that wholeness cannot happen if we don't really know who we are, you know, historically, culturally, spiritually. And, you know, I think when you're whole and men are whole, the chances that they will harm themselves and harm women and harm the community will be drastically, drastically diminished. Yes. And that vulnerability, that is such an important piece. Why do you think people are so hesitant to become vulnerable or to be vulnerable? And then do you think we're seeing a slight shift with people moving towards that direction? I do think, I think, you know, first, let me answer your first question. I think, you know, many of us wear a mask, you know, for years I wore a mask, you know, didn't want to show vulnerability. And particularly in manhood, typically vulnerability is associated with weakness. And so when you talk about, hey, man up, you got to man up. So to show vulnerability is not to be strong and not to be man up. And so suppression of all those feelings and emotions and pain and hurt that many feel just come out in unhealthy ways. And so we need to be vulnerable with each other. And we can invite each other into healing that way. I do think there's a movement for us to be vulnerable, you know, and I think women are leading that role. You know, frankly, the Sasha Center, Black women, women period, certainly Black women, I think are leading that role in showing us how to be vulnerable. And I think, you know, women have not had such a hard time at being vulnerable as men have because they're not socialized to be like that. And so I think we can take cues from them as we roll into this thing and do it together. Yes. And we talked about healing within the culture. What about healing within the community? What are you seeing today that makes you think we need more healing? We need to work together to heal and to make those that progress there. Yeah, we do. We do in the community, as I said before, when we can see ourselves as part of the community. And sometimes there's this thought that we're individuals in this, you know, but we are part of the community. We don't know who we are outside of community. Right. And so there's a collective community and collective care that has to be has to be present. And so we need to have those conversations in the community, have them in the community. And again, we can't define ourselves outside of community and doing that and doing that work together, which this event is going to put that front and center, you know, and that's why everybody is coming to everybody is invited to it. You know, not just men, but women as well, not just older men, but young men as well to show that we need the full community to do this, to heal and to grow. And so, yeah, that's it's got to be community. It's got to be community. Yes. And Dr. Murray, tell us about the work that you do. Sure. So I do I do a lot of work. You know, I'm born and born and raised here in Detroit. I've been in Atlanta for 15 years now. But much of the work I do is there and here in Detroit and other places around the country as well. And so I do work to help men restore their wholeness. And so I encourage men to see themselves as fully whole human beings, not just as fragmented human beings, particularly when we're taught to suppress half of our humanity, which is our feelings, hurt and pain. So I encourage men to be whole. And so I do sessions with men. I also do restorative justice facilitation. And so I can restore relationships and restore people to themselves. And that's part of my ministry work as well. And then I also teach conflict transformation at the university and in Atlanta as well. But it all comes together when you talk about tension and conflict and restoration. All of it comes together to to contribute to this healing. That's awesome. So you do a lot of work with helping men restore their wholeness from the work that you've done. What is there a common missing piece here that they may be struggling with? Or is it multiple missing pieces that you're seeing a commonality with? Thanks for that question, Jamie. I think it's an important question. I think it is multiple things. I think I think the main thing when you get to the roots is many of us are socialized, even from a young age, to be a certain way as men. I always use this example of a six year old boy who comes in crying and most of the adults might tell him, you know, stop that crying. Be a big boy. I want you to be mama's big boy. And they begin to suppress who they are. Right. They can't decode that message. All they know is I feel something and I can't express it. Right. I'm not allowed to express it. And then you can imagine he grows into a young man. He grows into older men. He doesn't have practice, practice to do that. And so I think that's one of the number one keys to restore men. And when I say restore, that means they were they were whole from the beginning, born from the whole from the beginning. But they've been taught and socialized not to be whole. So it's a return. It's a return to that. So there's a spiritual piece to that as well. And certainly not religion, but a spiritual piece, I think, in defining who you are. But I think that's the common piece, because men begin to wear a mask and they grow into that mask because the mask hides what they've been taught to suppress. Right. And so that taking that mask off is part of that big part of it. Can we talk about that spiritual piece? I'm intrigued. No doubt. No doubt. I mean, I think I certainly think that men and people cannot really define themselves without without the spiritual piece, who they are on the inside, who they are inside, that they are created to be whole. Right. They're created to be that. And so all of the trauma, sometimes all the experiences in life that people have sometimes kind of disconnected from that and kind of fragmented, fragmented them from that. And so people have to really come full circle and really come back to being home. That's what we invite people. And I invite people to do that, particularly men as well. But I do think there's a spiritual identity and that not one that comes from your mistakes, your traumas and what other people said, whether people did your past missteps, but one that returns you to who you were created to be. And that's that's a spiritual identification. I love that. Are men hesitant to seeking that wholeness and finding that? Are they hesitant to enter that realm? Because, you know, we get so stuck in our ways as people in general. But you say you're missing something, you're going about things the wrong way. How do they how do you help them receive that better? Well, I also I also use my own story. I am very, very transparent about my own story. You know, I do no harm and do what I do because my own story in life that will take take take take take more time than we have. But but I think sometimes if you want to share a little bit, don't say something. Hey, listen. Well, well, listen, no harm comes from my experience, because I was I was I was raised to suppress those emotions, to not express pain, to be cool, to be aloof, to be indifferent and certainly to appear that way. Right. So I was wearing that mask mask as well. And it caused me a lot of pain because people I was in relationships with a lot of pain as well, because there's a lot of emotional withholding. And I think many men do. I don't know if they intentionally resist. I think there's a fear of being vulnerable because, you know, that you are rewarded. Right. Men are rewarded for this, what I call unhealthy masculinity, you know, that if you display a certain thing, if you man up, men give you pats on the back. And when you get pats on the back for something that's toxic, you just continue it. Right. Because you get rewarded for it. So I think there's a fear that men can have going into it. And so when I am transparent or other men are open and transparent, I think it invites other men in to do the same. And I find that in every space I'm in, even with the men I've intervened with in Georgia who caused harm and been mandated to come to a class that I teach 24 weeks, that when I when I address them and when I engage them in a way that's not shaming and invite them into seeing themselves as whole and say that, hey, I'm here with you, then men can start the journey to be whole and to become all. But I think there is there is that initial resistance because it's hard coming out of the old paradigm. You know, it's hard changing your lens. And in we have this society, you talk about community, Jamie, you mentioned it, and I'm so glad you brought it up, is that oftentimes men, when you talk about sexual violence and male violence, they want to separate bad men from good men. You know, hey, the ones I'm not I'm not violent. I'm not I don't cause harm. And they see because they only see it as being physical. They only see violence was doing me and say, I never hit him. I never did. But there's and that's why we use the word harm, because violence kind of pushes men away. You know, I'm not violent, but there's much harm we can cause. And the first time we cause it to ourselves, particularly when we began to self medicate, what we've been trying to hide by drinking, doing things like that outside substances, you know, to just numb the pain. And really, it just it just worsens the darkness, really. And so, yeah, it's it's this idea of really inviting men into change and using our own stories and use a storyteller to do that. Is when you when you talk about harm, because it may not be physical, it could be verbal. It could be to yourself. It could be to to others is one more damaging than the other when you're having these conversations with men, because some people may say, well, I'm not putting my hands on anybody, so I'm not too far off. But how do you communicate the level of change that you're trying to achieve here based off of what they're experiencing? Yeah, you know, that's a good question. Again, I think for for men, for many men, many, many black men that I engage to, I have to invite them in to see how they've been harmed by how they've been harmed by society, maybe harmed by the community or harmed by the system or what harms they experienced. And that's the way to usher men in to see that, because I think when men can acknowledge their own harm and their own pain, they might be they might have a tendency to see the harm that they might cause others, you know, to invite men into this idea of violence against women. Hey, wait a minute. Society is violent against me. The system is violent. It's me. But there's a commonality there. And I think men have to see their their their own pain first and their own hurt first and how they've been harmed and then be, you know, unfold this understanding to understand that that the harm they've experienced, they've also kind of paid it forward sometimes in their relationships and harmed others as well. But yeah, it definitely it starts there. And, you know, there's there's emotional harm, Jamie, that that can be just so much more detrimental. I don't I don't want to compare harms, right? They can be so much more detrimental than physical, something that's physical. But because it's as as as diabolical as harm is and violence toward women is, you know, there's some healing that takes years for people to have for people to experience, particularly if it's been emotional and psychological. So, yeah, there is emotional harm. There is financial harm. There is all type of emotional withdrawal. There's all type of things. I mean, I'm going to take my love. I'm going to remove my love away from you in order to punish you. That's that's harm as well. You know, so we have to expand that definition of what of what harm is. Should more men go to therapy? That's another topic. You know, you grow up a certain way. You're told not to cry. A lot of people are also told we're not going to therapy. Should that be something that they're doing? No question. Everybody should go to therapy. That's that's my take. Everybody everybody can find something useful in therapy. But certainly men, and I will say right now, truth and truth and transparency. I've been in my lifetime. I've been twice. And I'll tell you, it helped me see myself better. It helped it helped me usher myself out of this dark place I was in some some years ago. But certainly because it's a way to be, you know, vulnerable and a way to talk about yourself. So, yes, certainly. And I don't you know, and I don't think if men are listening and say, well, I don't necessarily want to, you know, I don't think I need to go to, you know, someone to tell my problems to talk to your friends come to a space. I have a space on Wednesday on Wednesday evenings, where men can just come and talk a zoom space. And so we just need to start talking. We just need to start talking and sharing and be vulnerable. And I tell you, I'll say this, this last thing, Jamie, I know we're getting short on time. I know it's coming. But when I have shared my story with people, I've seen men relax and feel like they have permission now to share theirs. Wow. And so the idea is to open and share your story. I certainly think therapy can help us with some deep, deep seated trauma that that therapy can help. But the first thing is to begin to talk and be honest, and not try to remove this mask that we've been wearing. Very powerful. Where can people find more information on the zoom room? Oh, well, listen, if you're in the zoom room, you can always find more information on no harm at noharmlife.org. And check out our story, check out what we do. But Sasa Center is gonna be front and center here. If you want to know about what's happening tomorrow, Sasa Center from two to six, go to sasacenter.org navigate the website to find workshop and events and go ahead and register for the event. But you can see all of the things Sasa Center is doing throughout the city. But we're going to do the thing tomorrow. We're going to have a Detroit manhood tour and we're we're excited about it's gonna be from two to six tomorrow. Avalon Healing Center 601 Bagley Street. So still time to register the bus is filling up. We'll do a bus tour with men that's filling up quickly. But everybody is invited to this tomorrow. All right. And if you love this conversation, you are going to love tomorrow's event. Like you said, tickets are still available. Be sure to register. Dr. Murray, thank you so much for joining us and having this important conversation. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.