Michael Oliver: The Bond Crisis Will Send Gold Prices Soaring

The last major financial crisis started inside the banking system. My next guest believes that the next one could start somewhere much bigger, the government bond market. Now, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant is making headlines as the Treasury steps in to buy back billions of dollars in long-term government bonds as yields push higher. Michael Oliver argues that this isn't another 2008. This time, the asset investors traditionally considered the safe haven may itself be becoming the problem. What happens to stocks, bonds, gold, and your money if confidence in the government debt starts to crack? Michael Oliver of Momentum Structural Analysis joins me to break it down. Hello, everyone. Welcome to VRIC Media, your most trusted voice in metals and mining. I'm your host, Darrell Thomas. And today, we have the pleasure of speaking with Michael Oliver of Momentum Structural Analysis. How are you doing today, Michael? Doing fine, Darrell. Yes. To start us off, there was some interesting news that came out with the United States Treasury agreeing to buy bonds. And essentially, this is to suppress interest rates. And the metals rallied off of that news and such. And so, curious in your thoughts on this. Is this QE? What are your thoughts on this? Well, it's an overall this time around, unlike other bull markets and gold that we've seen over the last 50 years. This is not driven by, oh, mortgage crisis, private debt, or, oh, a dot-com bubble. This is driven by primarily, and they're finally starting to recognize it on financial TV, government debt crisis. Okay. I mean, you couldn't have a bigger crisis. It's a nuclear event. First of it was Japan. Okay. Well, we can write that off. Okay. You know, they did QEs forever, and then, you know, they paid the consequences. And so, the problem is that they're dumping our bonds to support the yen. And so, we came in a week or two ago and started buying the yen to help support the yen, so they wouldn't dump our bonds or whatever, you know. This is all built into what gold does on an ongoing basis. And that is, yes, it has ups, and it has major bear markets, and it goes up. But if you stand back and look at the last 50 plus years, you'll see a massive upward zigzag process. And what it's reflective of is not global uncertainty or a war here or something like that. It's the ongoing degradation in fiat money on back pieces of paper, yens, euros, dollars, British pounds, you name it. And this decay destroys people's wealth, because it gives them a false sense of what their wealth really is. Like, you know, when your granddad built a house, it would have cost him $4,500, your father $45,000, and a median home today is $450,000. What's going on there? Well, you know, it's the degradation in the piece of paper. That's all it is. And so, if you look at, for instance, go back to 25, 26 years to the 2000 highs in the S&P, 1500 area, and look at it now, its growth in percent terms has merely matched the ongoing decay in the money supply and increase in the money supply, decay, excuse me, and the buying power of the money unit. So get an M2 chart from the Federal Reserve St. Louis, you can punch it up on the internet. And look at that beautiful upward curve. Thank you. It's a lovely bull market. The increase in the money supply. Okay, that's all the S&P has reflected. It hasn't really made money. Gold has outpaced that nicely. Okay. Now, the question is, well, what's going on now? What's going to happen now? And I think now that we have a government bond crisis, not a private debt crisis, we have that too. That's bubbling on the side as well. This is something new. This is bigger than the entire stock market, U.S. government bonds. So you can't simply say, well, well, you know, the rates are going up a bit. No, we get an underlying lack of confidence in the real value of U.S. government paper, not just the paper money that we call money, but the bond market. That's a crisis that you can't dance away from. And gold knows it. And right now, it's just coming to the fore in terms of analysts and TV talking heads and investors saying, whoa, what's going on over there? So that's where I think we are right now. And the early phase of that. So does this always, does all roads typically lead to this government debt crisis? So I'm thinking about on a historical basis, we see these governments, they remove the hard money that their currency is pegged to. They begin to print money and it's kind of like a continuous cycle. And so do you see this as similar to the 1970s when Nixon took us off the gold standard? Was that similar to what we're seeing today? Or what about 2008? It seems like the Fed came in and bailed us out. How are these similar? How are these different? They're similar in this to the sense that the Fed responded to a collapsing situation in the case of 2007. They cut rates in September of 2007. But two weeks later, the market in October of 2007 went up and made a new high. Oh boy, they cut rates. It was surprise rate cut, by the way. That was the top. They cut rates all the way down and the S&P collapsed anyway. And then they finally did a QE starting in November of 2008. That's like a year and a month off the high, which was October of 2007. And did that stop it? No, it kept going down to March of 2009, substantially more. What did it do? Gold exploded right off out of the low. It had already been going up massively since 2001 and 2002. But in 2008, it had a similar correction to the S&P for about a month. But then immediately, the bottom had exploded out of there and continued on up, doubling its price over the next couple of years. Because the Fed came in and took a page out of the Japanese book and they did a QE, Bernanke did. Right now, it's bigger though, because you don't have just a, oh, might have a bank go under. Oh, countrywide credit is going in trouble. Oh my. Now it's government. You can't have that happen. If the public, investment public, not just ours, but around the world perceives major government bonds as questionable, that's like the table. You might as well pick the tablecloth off and everything shatters, okay? That's where we are. Because that is happening in the fact that the Fed and the Treasury are having to respond the way they are, or what the BOJ has been doing to try to defend the yen and their bonds. Print, print, print. That just simply destroys the money unit even faster. So when Besant made that statement today, I mean, what did that admit? Panic. Panic. That's what it admitted. And therefore, gold and silver said, oh, yeah, we knew that anyway. Now look what the miners did today. Their gold's up like 3% and the miners up nine. We'll get onto that in a minute because that's a very important issue. But that's where we are. I think we have a crisis like we've never had that drives the gold move in an ongoing way, because this process, like you said, has been going on for decades, printing money, printing money. But now you have the bigger crisis that will cause them to print even more, to do things that we never thought of. Why? To keep the house from burning down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely seems like that's what's happening right now. So I want to get your take on oil. I'm looking at your recent report. I'm actually going to share screen here. So there is oil has been kind of trading in this, this interesting range with the closed. And I mean, that's that took about 20% of the global energy off the market. And then, you know, my team was kind of doing some math, just seeing like, okay, well, if they use these other pipelines and such, like, there's still like a gap between what has been take off the market since the Strait of Hormuz. And oil is, I mean, it spiked up and then it came back down. So what are your thoughts on oil right now? Well, we think one, the broad commodity complex made a bottom, a low in 2020. It was going down while gold was doubling in price. The Bloomberg Commodity Index was still going down 2015 to 20. We called it upturn then, price then was 70 on the Bloomberg and put it in context. Oil's part of the Bloomberg. Okay. Bloomberg then was 70. It's high that it had the Bloomberg Commodity Index back in 2008 was 235. We were having an upside breakout at 70. Okay. Right now, the Bloomberg is 135. So it's now a little better than half way back to its old high. Now, look at this oil chart on the top left there. That's monthly oil, goes back a decade or so. And you can see it at one point back then in 2000, it was at eight or something. Yeah, eight, nine. It was 140. Okay. Collapsed down to 40, then came back up and lived around 100 for a couple of years, collapsed again. And then in 2022, surged up to what? 130. Okay. Then we dropped back down and we got into the mid 50s late last year, early this year. When we turned up, you see the little tiny green arrow on that chart. That's where MSA turned major bullish on oil again. We argued that, okay, this lethargy in pricing and in action of the oil market is over. We're going back up again. Problem was that two months after we put out our buy signal, price is 65 at our buy signal, West Texas Intermediate, it exploded because of headline chasers. Headline chasers buying war news. That's not what's going to drive oil or commodities in general. What's going to drive them is what we were talking about before. The ongoing degradation in the money unit, the Fed prints and that money goes somewhere. Quite often, it'll go into the stock market. Certainly did starting in 2009, shortly after they started QE, a couple of quarters later. It went on for 16, 17 years upside. Then printing money and causing rates to be at the lowest levels in 75 years. Some of the rates levels at zero for 10 of the last 16 years. In effect, they made money quantitatively available and two, made it free, free money. Investors plowed it into the stock market. There's a point at which in history, we find that when these bull markets peak in stocks, that money goes somewhere. It doesn't all get burned up in flames. A lot of the assets under the stock label move somewhere else. Quite often, they move into bonds. Well, that's not going to be the case this time. Even the Morgan Stanley CIO six months ago, I think said, it's not 60% stocks, 40 bonds in a portfolio to be balanced. It's 60, 20, 20, 20% bonds, 20% gold. Well, he was right, except his percentages were a little low. But the point is, when that stock market starts to break, and I think we're in the process of putting the top in right now, that money will go somewhere because the Fed keeps printing it. The options usually are gold and bonds. They usually go up together. You look at 2000 to 2002, 2007 through 2009, gold and bonds had big net gains. 2000, 2002, same story. Well, the stock market went down. Problem now is bonds aren't a real viable alternative. And once we've crossed that road sufficiently where enough people say, I can't do it. I don't trust them. They got to find a place to go. And right now, the place to go is the monetary metals, where for thousands of years, your money is always protected. And I think oil being a component of the commodity complex, commodities overall don't always go with gold. Like I said, 2015 to 20, the Bloomberg kept going down while gold doubled. But they joined gold over the last couple of years and said, okay, we're coming up too. And therefore, we've gone from below 60 to over 135. Still cheap. Well, same with oil. Right now, we're a little higher than the last reading, which is like 78. We're now in the mid 80s. But even the mid 80s is in the middle of the range of the last since 2008. It's not at the high end. So it's not like oil's off the page. It's just in the middle of boredom. What if the money flow, and I think this is measurable, and we've technically determined it's underway, starts to go into a good long-term value asset category called commodities that have proven they don't want to go any lower. They're well below old highs. Oil is well below its old highs. In fact, if you factored in the growth in the money supply since 2008, oil should probably be $250 right now, just to catch up with the decay in the money in it. So basically, I think oil is reflective of the Bloomberg. It wants to go up. The problem was you had sucker buyers who came in on war news, and they got gut kicked. We said buy at 65. But when that news hit in March, first day of trading in March is when oil really started to go. We said, watch out. If you're buying for news, war news, you're going to get gut kicked. Sure enough, they are. I suspect this pullback we had, which got as low as 67 two months ago, I think, $2 above our entry point, is now firm back up. I suspect regardless of what happens in Iran, oil is going to continue upward because it's dirt cheap compared to its own history. It's dirt cheap relative to other assets, stock market, relative to gold. No matter how you want to measure oil or commodities more broadly, they're dirt cheap as an asset. And therefore, they're going to be a beneficiary of the ongoing decay in the money in it, which is hastening now because the Treasury and the Fed are panicked, as admitted by Besson today, while he smiles. Yeah, for sure. I had a conversation with Jim Rickards about the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. He was sharing that. I know when the conflict kicked off, many countries started releasing from those reserves, and then oil price spiked, it came down. We've seen this be used as a political tool under Biden as well to suppress the price of oil. And we're almost at that lower bound where we can't go any lower, because he was telling me that the 300 million barrels is like the cap. That's pretty much zero because these salt domes will collapse if you go any lower than that. So it seems like the tools are running out for them to delay and suppress this price. Yeah, they've lost the tools. They can't just print oil. They can't print money. Yeah. I wish we lived in a world where governments didn't try to control prices of this, that, and the other. But they do, and they try to control price of oil, and now it's failing now. Fine. To be expected. Okay. It's not a market force. It's a government imposition. It's like socialism, you know, when a government determines the quantity and the pricing of essential commodities. But anyway, so that's failing. Yeah, that could come into play at some point here as a factor. But the real factor is, for oil, it's simply historically cheap. And when you factor in the degradation in the money, this is even cheaper. It's not merely cheap to its own nominal prices. But when you factor in, basically every decade, the money supply increases 90%. Wow. I mean, factor that in, go back a couple decades on oil and factor in where oil might ought to be if it were at the valuation levels relative to the money supply of 2008. Be off the page. And it wouldn't need a cause for that. The cause already exists. Same is true with commodities in general. They're just dirt cheap. And some wise asset managers are starting to determine, hey, that's a low risk, potential high reward sector. And so they're not just buying commodities because they don't always do that. They're buying stocks related there too. XLEETF, oil companies, base metal companies, grain related companies, et cetera, et cetera. And so it's a wholesale thing. And it's on the coattail of gold and to a large extent is reflective simply of the degradation in that which we use and call money. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's pivot to gold. So gold obviously was under some pressure. And you talk about this in your recent report, encourage the audience to go subscribe and check out Momentum Structural Analysis because some great, great things that you all write about in here. And you mentioned that it was pretty much draining, like you had the momentum that was draining for a while. And then now it looks like it's broken out of that down. Yeah, let's focus on these charts here. This covers it pretty well. And yeah, I agree. You see the high back there just short of 5,600, very brief spike high by the way. These are daily bars. So you spent like a couple days up there before you collapsed. Okay. But that collapse was literally two trading days, really a day and a half of trading, the last day of January, first trading day of February. And you collapsed just below 5,600 down to 4,400 and something. Okay. Wow. Okay. If you look at that low there in February on the left side of that chart, just above 4,400 and drew a line across, you'd see we've done nothing, but we've above and below it since then. Right now, this chart is by the way, a couple of weeks old. Gold is now up toward 45, 50. Okay. But you'll see there's three waves of price selling there. There's the first hit, then you rallied nicely at 5,400. Then there's the second hit, took you to 4,100 area. Then you had another rally up to 48 plus. Then you came down and nipped under 4,000 and now you're 10, 12% above there. Okay. Three waves of price selling. Okay. Now look at the bottom chart. What that does, it simply measures each daily bar, price bar. Where is it in relationship to the 50-day moving average, which is a very popular average. Normally the 50-day average is not structurally important, meaning you can cross over to cross 100. Who cares? Normally that's the case. Same with 200-day. But in this case, gold happened to build structure at its 50-day. If you look at the price chart even, you see that first hit stopped at the 50-day. Then the rally that occurred in April after the March sell-off, what did it do? It bumped the 50-day and it bumped it again. So when you plot the oscillator below, it simply measures each bar in relation to how much above pointwise below the zero line, below the 50-day. You'll see there's a ceiling at the zero line. Bump, bump, bump. Again, this report's a couple of weeks old. We crossed above that level just above 4,000 a couple of weeks ago, where we had another rally in price from a low. So who knows, maybe this rally is just yet another failing rally, right? You've already had two of them. This is the third one. Is this one going to fail? The momentum chart says, no, you're doing something different this time as of two weeks ago. You've crossed over a major momentum structure that you don't see on the price chart. You don't see a flat floor and a flat ceiling or anything like that. In fact, to take out that April high that got up to 4,900 almost, you have to exceed 4,900. We've already exceeded it on momentum. So momentum says, no, I'm born again. So what we're arguing at MSA is that this protracted but intermediate trend decline, which is not a long-term trend. The long-term bull trend in gold and silver remains up. You've not broken anything on momentum there. The only thing you broke was this intermediate stuff. But this action two weeks ago says, nope, I'm reborn. This rally will be different. And sure enough, two weeks later than this report, it is different. We're much higher than where we were at the time of that breakout. Same is true with silver. So what we argue is the monetary metals have completed their intermediate overlapping corrective process in price. Momentum says it's green light again. We're going back up. And this time, we're going to continue to go up. You could look at silver on the next page if you want. It's no big deal. It's essentially the same story. Yeah, I want to get to that. This is very interesting. So the 50-day, you see that here, it keeps hitting the 50-day, coming down. And then when you put it on the momentum, the oscillator, you see this become resistance. And then it's broken out above it. Yeah, you could with a crayon and a ruler, you could plot that structure. You can't plot such a structure on the price chart. We're not above that last rally high, 4,900, even after 4,500 plus now. But we're not above that. But momentum's taken out all the highs, all the rally highs since that March drop. So it's broken out to the upside. And also look at the arrows on both charts. Price chart, it's a lower low that occurred in June, July, then occurred in March. But look at momentum, made a higher low. Momentum says, uh-uh, I'm not confirming this new price low. That's a trap. It's a falsehood. And sure enough, it was. And then you got your structural breakout. So we've got all thumbs up on the monetary metals as of a couple of weeks ago. Now, we've since rallied substantially on both the metals and the miners. So game is on again. The problem with gold at that high and silver as well in January was that you had late market chasers, people who entered at the wrong time. Our buy signals for gold and silver, we'll talk about silver, for example. Over the last couple of years, we said in March of 2025, no, 2024, excuse me, we said buy it at $25, $26 on. And in June of 25, we said buy it as it approached $35. And November of last year was our last buy signal at $56. That's an average price of $38 for those last three buy signals. Unfortunately, too many investors came in when it crossed 100 and said, oh boy, I believe it now. Well, they got bagged. The people who bought it at the right point suffered a pullback, but it didn't destroy their position. And now it's reasserting itself. Silver example here. This is silver weekly price chart top. It also had three waves of decline. And if you look at momentum, there's also three hits. And the third wave didn't make a new low compared to the second wave then, whereas price did take out the prior low. OK, now, when you look at the price chart, you have these two failing rallies. How do we know this isn't just another failing rally? Well, because for 13 weeks, I think it was, see that red line on the momentum chart, the horizontal. The momentum action was capped perfectly at the three-week moving average. Bang, bang, bang. Now, price kept making lower lows during that time, but momentum kept making a flat ceiling. So if you looked at that bottom chart and treated it as a price chart, you'd say, oh boy, you crossed that red line. I'm going to turn bullish. But unfortunately, most people look at the price chart. Anyway, that broke out two weeks ago as well. Silver has since gone, you know, it's up to 66 today. Anyway, so the metals have turned. This rally is for real. And the rationale for it is not the war transient event that it will be. It's the ongoing historic degradation in the money unit now being fully panicked and fully throttled by the central banks due to the threat to their bond market. That's the real fire in the house. It's not the Iran conflict. Yes, that causes news headlines, and it causes tightness in oil, et cetera, which was going up anyway. It's due to the ongoing decay in that which we call money. And if all of a sudden, the world recognizes at some point due to a crisis, likely global, that, hey, you know, this fiat game has not worked for decades. We need to go back to gold-backed, monetary metal-backed currency, where we know it's valuable. It holds its value. Well, the Western world is not doing that, including Japan. They're just printing, printing, printing, which is fuel for gold and silver. That's the world we live in. Nothing you can do about it but be on the right side of it. Yeah, yeah. It was interesting with the kind of sentiment on the debasement trade, you know, earlier this year, late last year, and then that sentiment just got killed, you know, and almost as if the trade was off, like governments were shrinking their balance sheets and balancing their budgets and everything, right? Yeah, right, yeah. We're still here. No, nothing's changing. And we have a debt crisis, and that's going to be front and center. We've been arguing that for quite a while, that back early this year, we defined the dollar index in March of 2025. It was 104. Right now, it's trading around 98. We said it's headed into a major bear. It stalled for a while, but still in a major bear. Now, it's starting to head down again. But the real issue is the bond market. And the bond market collapsed in price from 2020 to 2022, most of that occurring in 2022. I'm talking 30-year T-bond futures now, not the short end of the market that the Fed plays with, but the long-term end that they don't control very well. Price was over 190 in the futures. Yields were low. It collapsed down to 117.5. Look at that drop, 190, 117 by 2022, most of it occurring in a couple quarters, okay? Since 2022, you could draw a line on T-bond futures on a price chart, or therefore on a yield chart the other way, sideways. And bonds have been doing this, trying to bottom, trying to peak the yields. But we started to slip about several months ago. We put out a warning that, okay, the T-bond attempt to hold is failing. Price then was like 114. We're now trading down to 107-something the other day. Last month's close was the new low monthly price close for T-bonds going back a quarter of a century, meaning a new high in yields. And now they came in today with this thing. We got a little rally in the T-bonds because the Fed's going to try it, et cetera, et cetera, and the Treasury. This isn't going to help the problem. The problem is far too big. It's a crisis-level problem. Japan went through it. Now we're entering that same hellhole. And once that happens, all faith in British bonds, EU bonds, et cetera, out the window. Because, hey, if Japan couldn't hold up, US can't do it either, oh my God, we have a crisis. It's beyond the control of the central banks. And once that occurs, there will be wave effects in all kinds of markets, in particular, financial-related sector of the US stock market, which we plot closely, because it is very, very vulnerable for a major decline to lead the way. Not AI and semiconductors, which have already started down, but you got to watch financials. That's really the heart and soul here. Because if you start to get even one headline out of the financial sector about, oh my gosh, it's not a regional bank, or some debt crisis. We know there's a lot of private debt crisis as well right now. Then suddenly, it's arms in the air. And the central bank has to go absolute ape. And the only thing they can do is print, print, print. I was thinking about the interest rates continue to rise, the bond yields. And we've been in this negative rate environment for a while. And so, these yields start rising, and the government can't afford these higher yields. The government can't afford to pay positive real rates. And so, it's like- The word is real, you said. There is something called reality out there. Government playing games with the cards doesn't change reality. It may postpone it. But the longer they postponed it, the bigger the bubble, the black bubble becomes to where when it bursts, all darkness comes everywhere in places people weren't looking. And I think we're there. I think Bess's statement today in effect said that. I'm sure he didn't look panicked when he said it. I haven't seen the video of it because you can't look panicked. But there's a bigger event about to occur that I want to point out. And if you want to get around to it now, we can hold off if you want. Let's get to that. What's the bigger event? Well, it's on page nine of that report. Well, on the current report I sent you. Yeah, that report. You'll see a spread chart. Now, what a spread chart is, is the valuation of one asset to another, page nine. That is the price of the XAU index, which is Philadelphia Gold and Silver Miners Index. It's not an ETF, it's an index, been around since the 80s. And at the end of each month, we plot its price divided into an ounce of gold. And so, you can see in that red rectangle that between 1980s and 2008, nine, it stayed in a range. The average might have been 25, 26%, but it had highs up there in the mid 30% level and lows around 18, 17 and a half percent. But the average, let's say for multiple decades, was it was worth a quarter of an ounce of gold for the XAU price. Okay. Up and down, up and down, but it held a value range. In 2014, 15, the bear market low in 2015, it hit a low of 4%. Okay. In other words, the miners multi-decade valuation was always a quarter to 30% of an ounce of gold. It went 4%. What are they going to do, go free? Okay. I mean, what do you want? So, for 13 years now, that little green rectangle, we've had situations where the XAU has improved and beat gold on the upside in rallies and therefore the spread will uptick and then pull back, gone back up again, then pull back, gone up again. You can go back to 2014. So, it's a 12 year wide range. You've bumped the top of the range three times. Think technically now. Okay. Miners have gone up to a certain valuation of gold and been capped at a ceiling, very historically low range and a low level ceiling. That ceiling is about eight and a half or so percent above the zero line, meaning eight and a half percent. Every time the XAU index gets up to a price level that is eight and a half percent of gold, that spread hits the ceiling. Now, treat it as a price chart because it is. It's price versus price. If you saw this as just a simple price chart of some stock and it broke out above the top of that range, what would you want to do? Okay. You want to buy it. Okay. And when you look at the chart and say, well, where might resistance be? If I break out of this range, where am I going to go before I bump my head? Well, how about the bottom end of the prior multi-decade reality? Let's assume we don't even go any better than that. Okay. Just go up and bump the bottom. Okay. That's more than a doubling of the current price of miners versus gold. Meaning when that spread breaks out, we expect to see miners advance more than gold by more than a doubling of what gold does. Okay. Now, also a fact of reality about this spread is whenever that spread is rallying, meaning the miners are beating gold, such as you can see over the last couple of years, they've gone from the bottom of the range to the top of the range. During that time, they beat gold. They've actually gone up more in net price than gold has gone up. People don't believe that, but that's the reality. We bumped the top of that range in February, coincident with basically when the miners peaked in February in net price. Then we drop back some along with the overall decline in the monetary metals. Now we're uptick and we're above right now as we speak. This chart's a couple of weeks old. We're above the top of that range. We're getting a breakout right now if we close the month out anywhere near where that spread relationship is right now. Now, what is our conclusion? One, we know that when this spread goes up, it means the price of the metals is also going up. You never have the case where this spread goes up and gold and miners are going down. It's always the case that miners are going up more in net price to gold. That spread base is so dramatic and so clear that when you break out, we do not expect a trickle to the upside. We expect a vacuum type effect, meaning probably within a handful of months, you'll get a huge gusher as this thing breaks up out of that massive dozen year wide base. It will be coincident with a gusher in price as well. Right now, our assessment, and by the way, there is a similar situation with silver versus gold. We're arguing right now that if you want a final long-term buy signal to signal entry into the monetary metals, assuming you're not in already, which you should be a year or two ago, this is a signal that justifies primary entry. Because what should happen on the other side of this one be both speedy and dramatic? I'm not sure you're going to stop at the bottom end of that whole range. Okay. But even just getting there is jaw dropping. By the way, the miners, as anybody who examines them closely knows, they're making money hand over fist, incredibly profitable, and yet it's being ignored by the bookkeeping type analysts we have on Wall Street who look at the earnings and stuff like, why not look at the miners? This spread says, I'm going to get you, get out of my way. I'm going to make up for lost reality and underpricing, and I'm going to do it quickly. So this is something we regard as the place to be. So if this spread breaks out, it argues to us, you better be in the monetary metals, but preferably you need to be in the gold and silver miners, our preference is silver miners, or you need to be in silver. They will beat gold handily once this signal occurs. And as I said, we're already above the breakout level, but it's only mid-month. So we've got a couple of weeks to go. When we break out over this, we're gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's exciting on this front being a silver and gold investor, but obviously the money's decaying on the other side too. So you have to worry about that as well. Well, Michael, appreciate your analysis and your insights today. Work in the audience, go subscribe and get access to these reports. Well, get some sample reports and examine our unorthodox methodology, OliverMSA.com, momentum structural and OliverMSA.com. Okay. Well, you all got the information. Be sure to go check out momentum structural analysis at OliverMSA.com. Please hit the subscribe button. If you haven't subscribed yet, love to have your support and thank you all for watching. If you enjoyed this interview today and found it valuable, I encourage you to click the link that is pinned in the comments, as well as the description to the Commodity University, as we go deeper into what drives commodities and commodity pricing. And we also jump into different dynamics of this industry. And so I encourage you to click that link to learn more, go check it out.