ACLU of Wisconsin on MPD Flock policy changes

We're staying on top of the breaking news we've been following all afternoon. The Milwaukee Mayor's Office making some big changes to flock camera regulations in Milwaukee. Among the most notable changes, access limited to supervisors only, and the scenarios in which MPD can actually use those cameras. We want to bring in Amanda Merkway right now, the Policy and Advocacy Director for the ACLU of Wisconsin. Thank you for being with us, Amanda. Let me get right to this. If you have limited use of these flock cameras, supervisors, for example, and only using them on certain situations, is that enough to appease people, the powers that be, if you will, that these flock cameras are indeed effective and they'll be fine going forward? I think the reforms today are definitely a step in the right direction and are certainly a testament to the countless public meetings and emails and phone calls that Milwaukee residents have made and attended the last year just demanding something to be done about this incredibly pervasive and terrifying surveillance technology. But it's not the end. We certainly can't stop here. We know that flock is still an incredibly invasive technology that has the power to indiscriminately surveil our communities on a mass scale, and we believe it should require that a warrant based on probable cause be issued before it is continued to be used by any law enforcement agency. We need more independent oversight and can't just allow MPD to continue policing themselves in light of all of the abuses. To be clear, what is the Wisconsin ACLU's position on the use of this technology? It seems if you had your druthers, they wouldn't be used at all, correct? Absolutely. That is certainly what the people have been demanding, both here in Wisconsin and specifically here in Milwaukee and across the country. Milwaukee's contract for flock is up in January, and we hope that this announcement today doesn't prevent the common council and residents from continuing to be vigilant about whether this technology continues to be used at all in the city of Milwaukee because of the power of this artificial intelligence powered technology. When you talk about the technology and you talk about some of the limitations here or the problems that the ACLU is pointing out, on the other side of that, how do you reconcile that the minute you leave your house, you're on camera? Somebody's got a camera somewhere all the time. To people who may not know a lot about flock cameras, what's the difference? Sure. So I think the difference is this is the government, and when the government is going to collect information about you or track your comings and goings. We have 31 flock cameras here just in the city of Milwaukee. So because it's constantly tracking not just cars that are targeted in an investigation, but every single car that goes by, it's tracking not just the license plate, but picking up the make and model of the car, details about if there's any scratches on the car, if there's any bumper stickers, and then can on the back end do an AI-powered search either for a specific car or for all of the vehicles that were at a particular location at a certain amount of time. And all that's happening without a warrant, which is extremely concerning from a constitutional perspective. I think the tracking of people's locations with this technology can reveal a whole lot of things about their lives, such as when you're visiting a friend, when you're going to the doctor, if you are participating in a protest at a public park, if you're engaging in political activities, if you're going to church. And that's just not information that the government should just have ready access to without a warrant. I don't mean this to be a gotcha question. I'm genuinely curious with this. God forbid you were the victim of some sort of crime and cops said, oh, we can get these guys, we're going to use flock cameras. Would you say, no, please don't? Or what would you say? And again, I don't mean it as a gotcha question. Absolutely. I think like many forms of surveillance technology, I think the police should go get a warrant that is supported by probable cause and issued by a neutral magistrate, just like they have with a lot of other different types of information that they're trying to collect on people for that legitimate law enforcement purpose. Amanda Merkway with the Wisconsin ACLU, we appreciate your time and your insight. Thank you. Thank you so much.