Forensic Psychiatrist Explains Abusers’ Tactics and How to Escape - Dr. Carole Lieberman

No Limbs, No Limits, The Nick V Story was just released in theaters nationwide. This is the type of movie that will create change in our culture. Nick Vujicic. Nick Vujicic. Nick Vujicic. Born in Australia without arms or legs. Despite your disability, you're full of joy. Tell them what your hope is, Nick. Why me? I felt like no one really understood me. He couldn't feed himself, he couldn't walk, he couldn't sit. What could he do? I was just devastated. I wished actually he would die at the time, to be honest. I'd be stuck on the sidelines with the teacher, wondering what is his life for? He decided he's going to go into the world and tell his story. I went through a time of doubt. And that's exactly what he did. When you go out to the world, they're going to lie to you, that you need to be somebody before you're accepted. I used to think I'm never going to be able to hold my wife's hand. I'm never going to be able to wrap my arms and hold my children when they're crying. Well, the world's about to see Nick, and it'll never be the same again. Get more info on this movie. Watch the trailer and grab your tickets at nickvfilms.com. That's nickvfilms.com. Now for today's topic, domestic abuse. Why do victims often stay in abusive relationships? What are some warning signs that a relationship is becoming dangerous? Stay tuned to hear the answers to these questions and more from today's guest. Dr. Carol Lieberman is a board-certified forensic psychiatrist and veteran media expert with more than 20 years of experience in high-profile civil and criminal cases. Her expertise includes domestic violence, battered women, physical and emotional abuse, divorce in custody, and cases involving violence and emotional distress. She has also served as an expert witness in the domestic violence case involving Floyd Mayweather. This is the Counterculture Mom Show. I'm your host, Tina Griffin. October is Domestic Violence, Domestic Abuse Awareness Month. I'm with Carol Lieberman, board-certified forensic psychiatrist. How are you doing this morning? What's happening? Fine, thank you. Thank you for joining us on this program. I'm looking over your questions ahead of time. And I have to say that it's going to hit pretty close to home on several of these different angles of what we're talking about today. And I'll explain more about what I've personally lived through for two decades and just share with everybody tuning in, listener, viewer, a little bit of what I've personally gone through. And this is going to be a tough one for me. But I also know that the Lord wanted us to do this topic because October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. So thank you for joining us. It's not going to be an easy one, but it needs to be addressed. You have extensive television and media experience, including CNN, Fox News, Court TV, ABC, CBS, NBC, and Today Show. And good morning, America. How in the world did you do all that? How is it even possible? How are you wired? Well, the truth is that when I decided to be a psychiatrist, which was when I was a teenager and read Freud, I knew that I wanted to be a psychiatrist who would help the world, who would help society, not just however many people happen to make their way into my office. So I've always wanted to share things, you know, just like today's topic about abuse, you know, with people who are undoubtedly suffering from that. I mean, a lot of people who don't necessarily make their way, unfortunately, into a therapist's office. Well, thank you for serving, researching, and having that passion when you were a teenager. I know you're going to help a lot of people today, a ton, me included. Can you tell us why do victims often stay in abusive relationships? And why is saying just leave rarely that simple? Yes, that's what everybody wants to know. Why do you stay? You keep getting beaten up. Why do you keep staying there? Well, the answer is, you know, more complicated. First of all, there are unconscious reasons why people stay. You know, logically, if you're living with somebody who's being violent towards you, it's not logical to stay. But the unconscious reasons are more important. So, for example, the abuser can unconsciously be somebody else, somebody from your past. So, you know, we happen to have Hayden Penetier just died recently. And she is a great example of someone who, you know, well, she's an example of a number of things, why Hollywood is hard on child actors and a number of different things. But I think that one of the best things that she can that she warns us about, and in her book, she before she died, she got her book out, which was really wonderful, because she talks about being abused. She was her boyfriend was Brian Hickerson. And he, you know, he was arrested. She had temporary restraining orders out on him. I mean, it's no secret. People saw her and she had bruises on her face, bruises all over her body. There was no secret that this was happening. And yet she stayed with him on and off for years. Now, she also shows, you know, besides showing why you shouldn't stay with an abusive boyfriend, because, I mean, they haven't figured out all the details yet, but he was with her when she took what is likely an overdose of drugs. But she also shows how women pick bad boys over good boys, because she sometimes dated his brother. In between, you know, her relationship with with Brian, she would sometimes be with Zach. Now, Zach was a good boy. He was a pastor. He had had a good career before that. And and yet he wasn't as exciting. And she has admitted that she finally realized that she stayed with Brian because he was like her mother. Her mother was abusive. And it's not that, you know, so you think, well, if she had a mother who was abusive, why would she, you know, especially why would she stay with somebody else who's abusive? Because not that she likes it or liked it, but because it was familiar. And according to Freud, we all want to finish there. There are unfinished stories from our childhood, and we unconsciously try to finish them. And we get into situations that are familiar. They may be harmful to us, but they're familiar. And what we're trying to do is work it out so that it ends up with a happier ending. And of course, you know, hers didn't. And lots of women's stories don't end up with happier endings. That makes complete sense. And I know in this segment, we're talking about physical abuse. I know there's a lot of other types of abuse as well. The three other episodes talked a lot about emotional abuse and those type of things, non-physical mostly. But physical is a big one. Can you go through why people would stay in a relationship with emotional abuse? Well, again, you know, I mean, aside from there are certain sort of basic reasons, you know, that people stay, there are still psychological underlying reasons. But for example, women who don't have a career or, you know, don't have a way of making money or making enough money as much as they would like, you know, stay with a man sometimes, you know, because he pays for everything. Other women stay with a man because she has children with him. And she either wants, you know, the children to have a father in the house, or similarly, she wants him to take care of the children, his share. So there are certain basic kinds of reasons that people stay. But that really isn't, those aren't as important as the psychological reasons. And, you know, there's a cycle of abuse. I don't know if you've talked about this already. And it's not just physical or sexual. I mean, there's physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, and abuse by neglect. And so the cycle of abuse goes where, now the man is most often a man, it certainly can be a woman, and there are men who are abused, you know, every day and so on. But a man who is abusive, he is this way, because in his childhood, his mother abandoned him in some way. And so whenever a woman shows any kind of hint, it can be incredibly subtle, but any kind of hint that she might leave him, it could be her tone of voice, it could be, you know, her having friends, because abusers don't want their women to have friends or be in their family, they want to isolate them. She can get a job, and then he's angry that she's spending time with these other people. So whenever he gets this little inkling that she might leave, she might abandon him, like his mother, he gets violent. That triggers him, and he does something, or, you know, violent, emotionally abusive, any of the different kinds of abuse, sexually abusive, any of the different kinds of abuse get triggered. And so he builds up in the relationship, there builds up tension, he causes there, he causes tension to build up. And then the next part of the cycle of violence, cycle of abuse, is an incident that happens. And there's an incident that the woman does, you know, again, any of these things that I mentioned, for example, and the man lashes out at her. And so there's some kind of violent or sexual or some kind of incident of abuse. And then the man begs for either apologizes, or give some kind of an explanation or, you know, tries to get the woman back says, I'm never going to do this again. And when we get stuck back in. And then the fourth period is a period of calm. And things, you know, can be good again, they can even be better than they were before. But then it starts all over again, where the man builds up tension. And you know, then there's an incident. And then there's the reconciliation. And then there's the calm. I'm gonna go to a short commercial break. I have a curveball question for you that I know you can handle. So more with Dr. Carol right after this. I just learned that at birth, we have peak levels of IGF-1, insulin-like growth factor one, which assists in muscle development, tissue repair and recovery. Over time, IGF-1 levels naturally decline, contributing to the aging process. Women who want to stay young usually take the synthetic HGH, human growth hormone, but it's expensive, not safe, and there's a much better natural option. Through scientific research, deer antler velvet has been identified as a top method of increasing and maintaining IGF-1 levels. Neutronics Labs developed IGF-1 supplements made from premium deer antler velvet. Get a powerful immune system, support regular heart and joint function, build lean muscle, burn fat, grow great hair, skin, and nails, and sleep like a baby. Use code TINA to get half off with auto shipping at getigf1.com. A free bottle of Sleep Miracle, $95 value, and a free bottle of 300k IGF-1 Plus, a $350 value is included. Just use code TINA at getigf1, the number one, .com. You fight every single day for your kids, for what they eat, what they learn, what they watch. So why would you settle for healthcare that doesn't fight for your family too? I'm Tina Griffin, and for over 15 years, MediShare has been one of the best decisions I've ever made for my family. I've had all four of my children with MediShare, gone through two major surgeries, and every eligible bill has been shared by this outstanding community of believers. Here's what makes MediShare stand out. Members can save up to 50% compared to other healthcare options. You get 24-7 telehealth access for those late-night sick kid moments, nationwide provider access, and no annual caps or lifetime limits. In addition, your dollars only go towards supporting other families who share your values. Over 320,000 members have trusted MediShare since 1993. And the best part? You can join at any time. Visit MediShare.com forward slash Tina. That's MediShare.com forward slash Tina to get your personalized pricing today. Or call 1-866-88-BIBLE. Keep standing strong. How about this one? Can you explain more about the psychology of the abuser and patterns of control? Manipulation and intimidation. Sure. Well, and I want to say, you know, I do want to say something about the victim. Again, whether it's a man or a woman, but it's mostly women. And so it has to do with the woman's sense of herself. You know, in other words, not necessarily how other people see her, but if she has insecurities herself, then she tells herself a story. Well, you know, yeah, he's abusive, but I don't know who else I can get. And they're all bad. And who's going to want me? And, you know, that kind of thing. And so that plays in to the abuser. The abuser uses those kinds of things against the woman. Like he knows her weak spots. He knows her points, her trigger points. He knows what to say or what to do or to get her to feel insecure and to put up with his abuse. Men who are abusive, whatever kind of way they're abusive, there is hope if they get into very intensive psychotherapy. I'm talking about like once, at least once a week for years. Sometimes it takes that much. Sometimes it takes medication. You know, there's also sometimes there can be biochemical reasons for why someone, especially with violence, why that happens. And then the other important point is, so, you know, one might, should try that before deciding to just end the marriage. But in addition to that, when women do decide to leave, that is the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship, because that is when the man says to himself, aha, I knew it. I knew she was going to abandon me just like my mother did. Now, most men don't put that together and say it just like my mother did. But, you know, that feeling of abandonment. And going back to OJ, he killed Nicole when that night that he killed Nicole, they were at a ballet recital for their daughter. And Nicole was totally cold to him, very different. You know, he used to get her, he used to be able to get her to come back. She kept coming back, kept coming back. And then finally that night, he realized something had changed and that he wasn't going to be able to get her back. And that's the night that he killed her. It's so scary. And man, I could talk to you for two or three hours, literally two or three hours on so many of these different angles. And that is a good warning for people to be careful of as well, that are leaving these type of abusive relationships. Be careful, be prayed up, let people know what you're doing, get the protection that you need, have family get involved, get a counselor, but don't land up dead is basically what you're saying. And I think that's absolutely critical. I remember that like it was yesterday. So chilling. Can you just in a one-two punch, because there's two more critical questions I want to get in and I have to bring her back on the program again in the future. You're phenomenal. Can you explain more about the psychology of the abuser and patterns of control, manipulation, and intimidation? Can you go a little bit deeper on the manipulation, control, intimidation aspect of it? Well, one thing that abusers do, they use gaslighting. So they try to convince the woman that no, this didn't happen. You know, I didn't punch you in the nose. I didn't, you know, rape you, whatever it is that he did. No, you know, you're not remembering right. You were drinking. You imagined that. All kinds of gaslighting. And, you know, I mean, of course, especially if there were, was alcohol involved or if there wasn't anyone else around so who could say, yes, yes, you did do that. You know, I saw you. Then, you know, then the woman is left really confused. I mean, of course, that only goes so far because, I mean, especially if she's left with a black eye or some other kind of physical scar from the abuse. But that's the key thing that they use, try to use is gaslighting. I just had a case where I was the psychiatric expert witness for the wife. It was a case where the husband had cameras around the house. And sometimes it happens, you know, where they just, well, he did both, actually. He had cameras around the house, but then there was this room that didn't have a camera in it. And so he whipped out his cell phone and, you know, made a camera out of it. But, you know, first of all, a woman who stays in a marriage where there are cameras all over the house. I mean, that's certainly a sign that you need to get out. I mean, you can't live in, that's crazy making. And the reason why that happened is because they both realized that they weren't getting along. They had two children and they were trying to stay together for the children, but it had escalated there. You know, they were just not right for each other and they were oil and water. But the husband didn't want to pay money for the divorce. He didn't want to have to have a divorce and have to pay alimony. So he was trying to provoke her to do things and then take pictures of her so that he could bring that to court. And it was somewhat successful. I mean, not a hundred percent, but after he got her, provoked her a number of times, then he would call the police. Besides the pictures, he'd call the police. And he was American and she was from a different nationality and the police would come and they would believe him. He would look like a professional man and they would believe him. And really, it was that he was the one who was being abusive. So yes, these kinds of tricks and this went on for, I think they were married for 13 years, something like that. And it went on for a really long time. I mean, that can happen, but women do have to find a safe way if the man won't go to therapy or has gone to therapy and it hasn't helped, if he hasn't gone long enough or intensively enough, then you have to do certain things to, first of all, you have to call the police and you have to get this on record. The last time he called the police, she was taken to jail and he wouldn't pay her bail. I mean, it was so absurd, but there are men who, it's control. A lot of it has to do with control, whether it's violence or sex or emotional or neglect, it's all about control. The man wants to have control. And so it's very dangerous for the woman. You drink water every single day, but what if your water could do more than simply quench your thirst? Meet Echo Water, the technology that transforms ordinary water into hydrogen-rich water designed to support your body at the cellular level. Why is that important? 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I've interviewed countless experts on the show that confirm my research. Besides harmful 5G radiation, we are constantly bombarded with EMF exposure from Wi-Fi routers, smartphones, laptops, smart appliances, all contributing to massive sleep issues, headaches, fatigue, nausea, dizziness, brain fog, heart palpitations, and even increased cancer risk. I've been using two WaveGuard devices for over six years. I have the key home, which gives me whole home protection and the key shield when I'm on the go. WaveGuard uses depolarization technology to significantly reduce EMF radiation without blocking your Wi-Fi or cell signal. Protect your family now. Use CODETINA at checkout to save 20% off all devices at waveguard.com. That's waveguard.com, CODETINA. The thing that rips my heart out is all these homes around America, no matter what type of abuse it is, verbal, if it's physical abuse, emotional abuse, it's massively impacting the kids that are witnessing this. Yes. Kids who have grown up in a household where there is or was abuse are scarred for life. And parents don't recognize that. And the kids, they're anxious. They are afraid of the opposite sex. They get depressed. They feel, you know, little boys feel guilty that they weren't able to protect their mother. Little girls, you know, sometimes it makes them feel afraid of men getting into a relationship with men. And sometimes it makes them pick bad boys, you know, men who are gonna be bad to them in various ways, abusive to them because they think this is what a marriage is. And you would absolutely say within three seconds, get out of this situation for the sake of your kids. Well, it's not that easy. I would say get into therapy because divorce leaves scars on kids as well. And so you can't, you know, every situation is different. The answer is to get into therapy. The man and his wife are the two partners. And also if there is gonna be a split, then the kids need to be in therapy as well. And your website, everybody out there, check it out right now, expertwitnessforensicsychiatrist.com. Can we bring you in to speak at different events? Sure, I do that. And you do a lot of media. You have a blog on here as well. Your history, expertise, tons of testimonials, everybody. Please check it out, expertwitnessforensicsychiatrist.com. Link will be in the show notes. Dr. Carol, thank you so much for coming on the program today, giving a lot of people a lot of clarity. I think it's a life-saving episode and this whole series, everybody, a life-saving series. Dr. Carol, keep up the excellent, excellent work. You rock, everybody out there. counterculturemom.com. Click on the show tab, top of the page there. You watch it and then you share it and let's help as many people as possible. Go get them, people. Dr. Carol, keep at it. Hey, everybody, quick announcement. Our Instagram is going through the roof. Check us out, counterculturemom on Instagram. Follow us today. 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