Skip navigation Search Sign in Episode 9 | Marathon Talk meets Gary Laybourne, Age Group World Champion

Welcome to Episode 9 of Marathon Talk, powered by Abbott World Marathon Majors. On this week's show, we're plowing on through January with more advice for all of you out there who are getting into your marathon training stride. We will look back at our previous show's guest, Emily Sisson's record-breaking run in Houston. There was a particularly uncomfortable start to the Valencia 10K, and we've come across two amazing Australian women who have started 2022 with a bang. 200 miles in a tunnel in the dark. Would you do it? Plus, we talked to the reigning men's 40 to 44 age group world champion, Gary Laburn, about what makes him tick, how to run two hours, 21 minutes in your fourth marathon, including key milestone workouts that matter, right? Let's go. Dina. Yeah. Some listeners may have noticed that you said 2022 in your intro. So I'm just going to say, just in case everyone's having a little panic, that we're in 2023. Dina's calendar, life calendar is already going backwards. We've come across two amazing Australian athletes who started 2023 with a bang. Maybe they started 2022 with a bang. Oh, welcome to Marathon Talk. Dina, how's the snow shoveling going? You know, it's over. The sun is shining. The snow is melting off of the decks, the stuff that I just didn't have the energy to get to. And my running's picking up simultaneously. The shovel has been retired. My running shoes are getting a better workout these days. That's a relief. What about you? You look a little warmer in your office. No, it's freezing. The thing is, when we have this conversation to kick off the show, I always feel a bit like, okay, I'm complaining. I live on the Dorset South Coast in the UK and cold for me is, you know, like minus two and we have no snow, a dusting of frost. And I sort of laugh because I think to myself, you must be laughing. Like, have you seen the film with Paul Hogan, for our older listeners out there, called Crocodile Dundee? Have you ever seen that? Yes. And do you remember when there's a mugger and the mugger pulls this knife on Crocodile Dundee, Mick Dundee, isn't it? And he pulls this knife on Mick Dundee and Mick Dundee looks at him and says, that's not a knife. This is a knife. And he kind of gets out this great big thing. That's sort of what I think you're thinking when I say it's cold in Dorset, isn't it? And we've got a This is cold. Yeah. But you know, I also feel that there's no such thing as bad weather. You just have to be prepared for everything. Like if it's colder out, then you put on another layer of clothing or wrap a blanket around you. And it's clothing is everything, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can feel that what I've called the February shuffle for me coming along. It's coming along. The February shuffle. I'm not in like a marathon buildup, more on marathon buildups later, but I always find February quite a challenging month in the winter and my running kind of slides without a proper kick. Running can easily slide into a bit of sort of drudgery, you know, and it's like a February shuffle where I sort of grind out the month of February and wait for spring to arrive. And I can feel that coming. It's so true because you have the buzz of January, that fresh start, you kind of run into it with a lot of enthusiasm. And then February is just kind of this month that it's still cold, that enthusiasm might be waning. Your goal seems a little far away that it doesn't seem urgent enough to need to hold yourself accountable every day, every mile. So I get it. But February is also my birthday. So I have to like come into that. It's almost like a new year again, right? It's like renewing that resolution because I have a new year ahead of me. So. Well, February's also my birthday. Is it really? So that should hold you accountable. It is. Are you an Aquarius? I am. Unbelievable. This is why we're together, Martin. This is why we're doing this. So when is your birthday in February? This is live. Like this is just live revealing conversation. February 14th. It's on Valentine's Day. What about yours? You see, well, mine's the week before. February the 7th it is now. I love it. I love hearing that. Well, I love the fact that we have birthdays a week apart. I'm sure they're a bit longer than a week apart in years, but I'm not going to go down that road. We won't touch on that. Thank you. As a fully qualified mountain woman, do you want my mountain running tip? It has been a game changer for me in the cold weather. Do you want it? Absolutely. Please share it with all of us. Mittens. Like the ones your grandmother crocheted for you? Yeah. Like this is the first year I've run in mittens and it has made, I get quite cold hands in the winter. Like, you know, when the blood, so when I'm, I'm the kind of runner, I go running and when I'm exercising, the blood goes away from my hands towards, I like to think towards my heart and brain, you know, and working muscles. Actually, I get really, really cold hands when I run. My wife is completely the opposite and she gets really hot hands, but I get really cold hands such that they all, you know, you can see the blood drain out of them. And this year I am wearing mittens and it's completely changed because my hands are warm because the air circulates like, are you mittens or old school gloves? I'm old school gloves, but I am just dying here that we just celebrated the Chinese New Year. We're in the year of the rabbit. For Martin, it's the year of the mittens. There you go. I'll send you a picture of me in my mittens. Right. Let's carry on. Let's carry on with the show. It was the Valencia 10k recently, and there was a little bit of a strange start to the 10k. Saw one of the elite runners right on the start line fall and they disappeared under just a kind of stampede, like a stampede, I guess, of runners behind them. And they tore, literally the runners tore over people who'd fallen over on the start line. There was an official statement actually put out by organisers of the Valencia 10k saying that despite the fall looking pretty bad and seeing the runner in slow motion trapped under a sea of bodies, there were no serious injuries, a few bruises and minor injuries. But you know, look, it was a bit of a rocky start, wasn't it? It sure was. And Runner's World really captured this starting line photo of this fall happening. It was a horrendous picture, so it's surprising that nobody got more hurt. A Brazilian runner dislocated his shoulder. And when I read that, I cringed because I know what it's like to dislocate a shoulder and it is quite painful, but I'm so happy that everybody came away unscathed, basically. Have you ever fallen over on the start line? Never on the start line. I've seen people fall over on the start line. Yeah, I can't say that I have. You've seen it. Yes, but mostly they've been children. So if you ever watch, like I remember, I best not say where it was, but I remember going to, it was in the US, and it was a big holiday weekend. And I was doing a race and there's a children's race associated with the event and loads of children doing this event. And the start is ever so slightly downhill and all these kids are lined up. And if you've ever seen kids race, younger kids race, they start off really fast, don't they? They've got no grasp of pace and they sort of go off super quick. And all these kids went off super quick and about 25% of the field fell over. So it was like bowling. All these kids just within 10 metres hit the deck because of the slight downhill and tripping over. And then all the kids behind them just sort of ran into them. It was like a cycling pileup on the kilometre final sprint. And there was kids pitted all over the road, like all crying and parents. It was just the worst, the worst thing I've seen in terms of a race start. The next year's race was sponsored by Band-Aid or something like that. That's the only time I've seen it. Yeah, we put on two very small races here in Mammoth Lakes and we always give capes to the children along with their race t-shirt. So I ask for all the superheroes to line up at the front of the starting line for a photo opportunity. So everybody's on the starting line, but the kids are in front so we could see them. And then I ask before the race goes off, all of those kids now go to the back of the starting line so that they don't get trampled over. Because they do get a little anxious seeing that open road in front of them. So that's our little strategy so that we can mitigate those falls. And there is a video on the Runners World site. There's a video if you haven't watched it. And the other thing that struck me as well as it being the sort of thing that kids normally do is the way in which the runners just pile on past. Like no one stops and says, are you okay? Maybe we should restart this. Because there's been a fall, there's people on the ground. Not a single person stops. It's like, let's just tread this guy into the street. It's rough. You runners out there, you're mean. This is a reality check for all of you listeners. What would you do? Would you be the person that is so focused on your goal and hitting that first mile split that you blow past that kid with bloody knees? Or do you stop and help them up? Yeah, definitely. Right. Shall we move on to a couple of wonderfully brilliant Australian runners? Last show, we spoke about the Sydney Marathon and the event's ambitions to bring Ellie Kipchoge to the 2024 race. This episode, we're going back to Australia for two more amazing stories because two Australian women have set new records this month. It was pretty impressive too. So impressive. The BBC reported that marathon runner Archana Murray-Bartlett set a new world record for the most consecutive daily marathons by a woman. It took her five months to run from the north of Australia to the southern edge, which is 3,900 miles, or a marathon every day for 150 days. Wow. I mean, I have heard of people running. I'm not sure what the record is across Australia, but a marathon a day, every day, 3,900 miles. That would take its toll, wouldn't it? Yeah, it works out. I'll speak Martin's language, 6,300 kilometres. But she's only 32 years old. She missed out on making the Olympic team in Tokyo in 2020. And so she just diverted her attention to raising funds for the Wilderness Society, who's trying to mitigate the extinction facing animals across Australia due to loss of habitat, invasive species, mining, pollution, climate change. 19 ecosystems are on the brink of collapse in Australia. And I will say the world is a better place. At least Australia is in a better place because she missed that Olympic team. She really diverted her ambitions in a good way. That's lovely. And one thing I love that she said in the interview is that it was tough. She had three injuries in the first few weeks, but then she says this, my body learned to cope. And, you know, it's amazing how your body responds when you're under intense duress for a long period of time. And so often you think, I can't do it. Like whether in a marathon and you think, I can't do another mile at this pace, or whether you're thinking, I can't get up and run another marathon tomorrow and for the next, you know, 100 days. Pretty amazing. Yes. She also said, which jumped out to me in the BBC article, was that if you keep stringing together little goals, you can make anything happen. I just thought she's just a great advocate for the sport, for the Wilderness Society. What a great way to string your passions together and make the world a better place. Yeah. And also in Australia, Holly Ransom became the first Australian woman to run 24 park runs in 24 hours. She did it across Adelaide in aid of the Tumbling Farm Rehabilitation Programme in South Australia. She drove from one park run location to the next. She ran between a couple of them, only 3km apart, but she racked up over 124km in 24 hours. Now, I don't think, well maybe London, I don't know if you could do 24 different park runs within 24 hours. That seems like a logistical stretch. I wonder, and I don't know the detail, if Holly ran 24 different park runs, or if Holly ran between park runs in Adelaide, I'd need to look. I'd be surprised if there were 24 park runs in Adelaide. So could you run 24 park runs, well possibly in London, because you could connect different 5km loops, but could you make it to 24 different ones? I don't think so. Anyway, finally this week, Emily Sisson, who you spoke to, of course, in our previous episode, I mean, she is on fire. She said she'd do something in that interview, and she did. She's always understated in her interviews. She said, you know, I'm not really sure how my training is going. I had a little cold, rolled my ankle, but I'm going to go out there and just see where my training is, and I really want to start taking risks this year and competing against the other women. And she did, and she got the best out of herself. It's so fantastic to see the year she's had, breaking the American record in the half marathon last year, following that up with breaking the American record in the marathon in Chicago later in the year, and now backing that up with another record-breaking performance. It's a good year to be Emily Sisson. It is, isn't it? First American woman under 67 minutes on a record-eligible course for a half marathon. So, you know, if you're a runner out there and you think, I'm going to run a record, drop us an email, we'll see if we can squeeze you in the show. Right, now here's something, just to finish this segment off, Dina, that I wouldn't do. I don't know about you. 200 miles in a running race, in an ultra race. Again, we got this from bbc.co.uk, in an event called The Tunnel. It is a 200-mile ultra marathon through the darkness of the UK's longest foot tunnel, right? It's called the Combedown Tunnel. It's in Bath. There's a checkpoint at either end of the tunnel, and you basically have 55 hours to run 100 out and backs, or 200 times, through the tunnel. So, it's a mile each way, 200 times through the tunnel, where it is pitch black between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. Could you do that? Yeah, you know, the 200 miles kind of would make me say no, but I had the opportunity years ago to run on the blackout track in London. It was an experiment to just take away all your senses and see if you could run on a dark track with a spotlight in front of you, so you could only see your next step. There was white noise going, and I am a very sensory runner to like look around and take in my surroundings. So, I found it at first very uncomfortable, but by the end of the 20 minutes that I was running on this blacked-out track, I found that it was a very meditative experience. So, I really enjoyed it. I didn't hear my breath or my footfalls or see anything around me. So, I almost just had to be very internal and cerebral, and I thought it was a really fun experience. So, I would love to someday interview someone that maybe did this 200-mile race to see what they got out of it. Yeah, sensory deprivation, I guess, and just being able to cope with it. Although, I think also your eyes would become accustomed, you know, to the darkness, but for a long time, long time. Anyway, I think that's it for the news. We're beginning 2023 by talking to you a little bit more about how to get ready to run a great spring marathon. Last time, we spoke a little bit about choosing training plans and following training plans, and this show, we're going to be talking about shifting into February, and specifically the seasons of a spring marathon build-up, and a few pointers on what you should be doing in each of those monthly seasons, and we split it into four for simplicity. January, February, March, and April, four simple months as you get ready to run a brilliant spring marathon. So, we're almost at the end of January. What should January have been about? January was about finding your plan and getting into a routine, really looking at what's going to work for your schedule, and reflecting on where you're starting, and where you want to be, and piecing that all together. So, it's kind of a broader look at what you're ready to encroach upon. So, finding that plan that fits you was really important, and we talked about that in our last episode. And so, you know, let's assume, unlike kind of leading into all our confident January marathon runners out there, that January's gone really well, right? So, we're entering the end of the month, at the end of the month of January here. We're saying January's gone really well. We've built this healthy routine. We're regularly running. We've racked up some miles or kilometers, you know, and things are going in the right direction. Whether you're running three times a week or seven, you know, like it's working. You seem to be thinking, yes, I'm through January. February, it's a really important marathon month, I reckon, because it lays like a really important foundation for robustness, for building up into March when things can start to get quite heavy and intense. You know, particularly if you're racing in, you know, the middle or the end of April. And so, for me, February is a month that's got to be based on progress, patient progress, getting stronger and building distance. Yes. And progress, whether January went perfectly or had its challenges with your new program that you might be starting, it is about progress. So, no matter where you are, February 1st, make sure that the next day you're progressing forward. And anytime you're adding volume to get stronger, to be more enduring, you also have to add rest and recovery. So, if you're adding something to your program, you've got to make sure you're getting in bed a half hour earlier or adding a massage that month, doing something for the recovery process. As soon as you add more, always look at ways in how you can recover better. When you're either working with marathon runners or when you're receiving coaching for your own marathoning or any of the coaching that, you know, perhaps you see Andrew doing with runners that he works with, like, what's the most important rule of adding volume? So, take rest, yes, but what about, do you think there's anything around how much to add or, you know, how does volume work, like volume progression? Yeah, well, Martin, you're the coach, so you probably know the percentages, but I personally also work with how my body feels because if I have, if I'm jumping up from a 10-mile long run to a 13-mile long run and I'm just having an off day, I'm achy from the day before, from something, you know, carrying my kid around Disneyland or whatever that may be, if I'm feeling off, then maybe there needs to be a little compromise there. You're not forcing your body to do it if it feels like there's an injury and so there's a lot of self-assessment going on. What do you work with? Do you work with percentages when you are building that marathon base? I think I tend to be, yeah, a little bit more bespoke. So, it really depends on working with, particularly around their history. So, like some, you know, some people can handle, like they can handle a volume increase. Other people, you know, you need to be more sensitive with. So, I think there's, you know, you've got to have, when you're adding volume in February, you've got to have some hard conversations with yourself around whether you're getting the addition of volume right and sort of, I think, 10% or so on a long run feels about right when you're building that and volume and intensity can increase in sessions. Of course, Dina's exactly right when she says if you start to add volume and intensity and frequency of running all at the same time, then bodies start to get a bit creaky, you know, and things start to break. So, you've got to carefully manage in February the way in which you progress because when you get to the end of February, you need to arrive in March super ready for what probably is the most important month of a marathon build-up. One final thing for February is to get a little more specific with the session outcomes for your running. So, you might start to build in some specific pace around your intervals or your sustained tempo running. Just a little bit more specific so that you can be more in control of the outcomes for each session and that also gives you really important feedback about how your training is going so you can then adapt or change your sessions so that you can really hit March ready for a month that matters. Yes, and so March is all about learning that long run. Your long run is growing to maybe mileage you never expected your body to be able to do but understanding that the adaptation process is what this training program is all about. Your body builds and adapts along the way like it should, like humans are meant to do. And so, learning that long run, getting a little more specific in your miles and your paces and this is the time where your confidence could be growing simultaneous to getting a little nervous about what's to come in race day and really making your mindset all about believing that you are capable of the distance that the program is demanding of you because that's how you stay injury-free. If you're fearful and anxious, you're running with a little bit of tension that could be causing some niggles to pop up. So, your mindset has a lot to do with staying injury-free in the building process. So, we're summarizing the kind of seasons of a spring marathon buildup. January, getting into your routine. February, making patient progress, getting stronger. March, really getting specific particularly around learning the long run and mastery in that long run in order to give you confidence for what lies ahead in April. Staying injury-free is vital in March. It's probably the most important month where you want to avoid an injury. So, learning to listen to your body because if you get injured in March, like it just throws so much doubt around an April performance and once you hit the fourth season or April of your marathon buildup in the spring, it's all about refining the running. It's about reducing the running and it's about being ready. I think what we'll do is we've outlined those sections today and then as we get into February, we'll spend a bit of time each show talking about some of the progress metrics that we need to do and some things to help us in progress and then in March, we'll get more specific with some of the buildup in your March and then in April, we'll talk a little bit about racing and being ready. So, yeah, I hope you enjoyed that. For this week's Marathon Talk interview, I am joined by the 2022 Abbot World Marathon Majors World Champion in the V40 to 44 category, straight from London, UK, Gary Laybourne. Welcome to Marathon Talk, Gary. Thank you very much, Martin. Absolute pleasure to be here. I feel I'm in esteemed company. Has anyone ever introduced you as World Champion before? No, no. I've had the pleasure of National and European in previous settings but absolutely not as World Champion. So, no, some small fireworks going off in the background I feel is needed but never actually appears. I haven't got a giant hooter or any fireworks or anything like that. But I'm glad I'm the first person to have introduced you as the Abbot World Marathon Majors World Champ. I mean, that's pretty cool. It's pretty special, pretty unexpected. Even after it happened, which I'm sure we'll get into, it was pretty unknown to me as well. So, yeah, honestly, it's been incredible and unbelievable motivation, obviously, moving forward for me to think that actually it's a bit more juice to squeeze from the lemon, so to speak. Yeah, and there's a little bit of context. We will, in the next half an hour or so, we're going to dig into what got you there, what got you to running 221.07, some of your background and how perhaps you've been made a successful transition from one sport or different sports into running and the benefits of that, and then perhaps some of the training and things that you did. And there's context for listeners. Gary and I know each other a little bit. I think I probably met Gary about a year ago. Gary runs an amazing organisation called Coach Corps, of which he is the co-founder, and he set that up in 2012. Gary, in two sentences, I don't want to steal your thunder, you see. Tell us about Coach Corps. So, yeah, set up in 2012, we're a social mobility charity that uses sport and apprenticeships to target disadvantaged, what we call neat young people, so those that aren't in employment education. And working with a number of amazing sporting and physical activity charities, we provide a much-needed bridge back into that employment and education space for diverse new talent, as we call it, for them to sort of get their career pathways back on track. And then the beauty being that as they're trained up and redeployed back out into their local community, they become incredible, relatable young role models for the next generation as well. So, for us, it's all about them moving forwards on a long-term career pathway. If that's in sport, great, but if it's not, they're going to have an incredible impact on themselves and the people around them for 18 months. Yeah, and for both of us, as we'll find out, you know, a life surrounded in different ways by, you know, kind of sport, physical activity and movement has positively impacted both of our lives. So, what you do at Coach Corps is really valuable for those young people. If you're interested in checking it out, it's coachcorps.org.uk. Right, Gary, back to running. First question, I'm going to kick off with a slightly different question than I've asked in previous interviews. It's a bit more generic, not certain where we'll go, but let's start. What makes you tick? I think for me, it's just quite simply positivity makes me tick. So, whether that is, you know, a positive influence on the young people that I'm still coaching today, whether it's a positive influence on my own family, with the young people that we're working with in Coach Corps, or obviously just a positive outlook on life from results that I might have gained. I think just being able to wake up every day and have something that you know you're making a difference, you're putting something good back into the world. That, for me, is the difference from those very, very rare days where I wake up and think, actually, what have I done that's been positive in the last couple of days, or something like that. So, I think for me, just having that sense of positivity and belonging is really important to me across absolutely everything in my life. Why do you think that is so important? Where does that come from? I think that it's an interesting one, because as time has moved on, as I've got older, and certainly with the more young people in the different settings that we work in, you know, around the country, I've spent basically a career working in support for development, support for change. I reflect back on my own childhood, and you know, definitely that wasn't around too much. I grew up on council estates, and I think, you know, that ability for me to sort of see some things that weren't great, and certainly continue not to be great for, you know, the young people in this country. I think there's just this drive and this motivation to always want to make things better for people, but also knowing that that comes down to one individual. I have this conversation with particularly charity leaders that are working, you know, either slightly somewhat removed, or they're working across thousands on things like call lines or something. Where they don't feel they're having that difference, I've always said the same thing to them. Just go and speak to one person, and if you've changed one person's life just for a day, had a positive influence, that ripple effect, they will then go and be positive to other people around them, and you feel good about yourself and what you're doing. And it's not to be self-serving, but you understand that you're part of something bigger. So I think it's just always been that desire to try and make the short time that we have here on earth, I think it's one of those things for us to say, look, we've got to make the best of our own lives. Cheesy and as cliche as that is. But actually, what good can we put back into the world? Because there's a lot of crap that people want to take out of it. So that's it. How is that manifest in your running? So how do you bring that? Let's kind of narrow the focus right down to your personal running. How does that manifest itself in your running? Point one, I can run. That's it. Simple as that. Any time, I think any listeners, you and I definitely, Martin, over the years, where we've had that opportunity whereby running was taken away from us through an injury, through workload, or whatever it might be. And I certainly had my second Achilles injury. I genuinely thought that was me done. That was kind of end of 2021. It was so painful. It was so bad. I just couldn't even get out and jog. And I'm so fortunate that I had, and I'm sure we'll come on to a bit of a triathlon background as well, that I could cross train at least to keep my mental health moving forwards, because I have to be active. But then when running is handed back to you, and you are able to do it, just that sheer sense of pleasure. And I think so many of us got this through COVID, right? Where we just had that opportunity to go and explore trails and things around us that we probably never knew existed. And that ability to just go and run and be free, and what that means for your mental health and for your physical health, and all of those kind of wellbeing pieces. I think I'd never, if I ever took it granted before, which I hope I didn't. But if I ever took it for granted before, I don't now. And I mean, even off the back of all the results that I've had in the last year and stuff, I'm still the same. It's actually, I'm happiest when I'm running with my dog. I'm happiest when I'm running with the boys, you know, in a training group, where we're chewing the fat about the week that was. Racing is just the wonderful cherry on the top of the cake. That's it. I mean, that was, wasn't it, a banging cherry, London 2022. So you were 42, right? You run 221.07. It was your fourth marathon. So it's not like you've been turning the marathon dial, you know, for 20 years and you've arrived and, you know, suddenly you become the world champion after a lot of years of trying. Actually, it was your fourth marathon. I kind of, there's a little bit of me that just wants to hurl. Like, hang on a second. Marathon number four, and he's only gone and run two. I mean, that rarely just happens. So what's the context for your running? You know, are you one of those people that went, hey, I'll just try running and, you know, roll up and there you go. You suddenly turn out of time or has running kind of been bubbling away under the surface for a long time? What's the background? Yeah, I think so. One of my training mates said something quite sweet to me. He said, you're like the old Aston Martin that got a bit of a run out when the Ryoda first bought it and they put it back in the garage for a bit. So your mileage is low. You've got that speed and, yeah, we put you back in. So yeah, I mean, I started to demand that they called me Aston from that point, but it's not stuck just yet. But anyway, I digress. No, I think, I mean, as we were talking, I came from, the genetics are there from a father who was a PT instructor in the army. The love of sport, again, you know, the background that I had, sport is your classic way out, you know, from the area that I grew up in and all my friends, we all played on the same football team. We did, you know, pretend cricket teams. We just did everything together, you know, played in a half decent football side. I myself, I, you know, certainly in reflection, thought I was a lot better than I actually really was. But critically, your standard, not for everybody, of course, but your standard PE teacher intervention. And he just saying to me, look, you have something a bit special. You don't seem to get tired when all the other kids are on a football field. Let's put you on a running track. So relatively late to the sport, you know, 15 was the first time I ever stepped on a track and dropped a half decent 800 at that point, which then put me in touch with my first ever coach, Roger at Torbay Athletics Club. And Roger was probably my first real positive male role model in that sense, that he was so ahead of his time. He really took us as a training group under his wing. And I quickly, you know, moved through ranks. I had to waffle on, but, you know, I did quite well. I managed to get to, you know, English schools. Didn't finish high or anything like that, but was getting to English schools and getting to those competitions. And then grades weren't great. Again, plenty of other distractions going on at that time. But my coach wrote to Alan Stark at St. Mary's and basically said, look, this kid's got something special. He's hardly been doing this very long. I think he's worth a look. At that lovely time where you could get into big sporting unis without any grades. So I ended up going to Sims and that's the reason I ended up working, coaching, studying, obviously, first of all, in London. But I dropped off the athletic journey quite quick. You know, if I'm being brutally honest, it wasn't for me. It was too much discipline. I saw guys there, Mo was two years below me and obviously seeing him come through and you're like, how the hell am I going to deal with that? So I ended up going back to football and having my fat years. And it wasn't until I came sort of 26 where I realized, look, I can't sustain this. I'm enjoying it anymore that I found triathlon. So yeah, I mean, jokes aside, I think that's where I've got to today that it's only been three years away now, four years away from triathlon that I've got relatively low run miles on the clock. So I think that's why I'm able to kind of do it. Yeah. The analogy you make with a classic car, you know, classic cars, been in a garage, took it for a hard spin out when you got it and then left it. And now like the car's ready again. You know, and the car's out there again. You did quite well at triathlon. You know, I think you did a sub nine hour Ironman in Copenhagen and, you know, you set yourself a bit of a challenge of qualifying for Kona, which you did. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it. Listen, I love triathlon still today, I think. And going back to that point around my kiddies as well. When I first kind of came into running, you know, the very simple concept of I was running two, three times a week in triathlon days. I'm now running five, six, seven, eight times a week. And people go, who's this guy? Well, how come when he ran a Surrey league before he was 50, 60th place and now he's getting top tens and finishing third overall in my first season. So I think that that jump across also what I took with me is cross training. And when I had that Achilles injury, I was able to keep the engine purring because I was just able to keep jumping on the bike, on the turbo bike when it was getting too sore, I was able to keep swimming. So actually, by the time I had the breakthrough on the Achilles, I was still six weeks out from Manchester in 2019. Sorry, I beg your pardon, in 2022, the second time around. And I honestly believe it was that cross training element. So, you know, all the things from triathlon years, it's not like that's been put to bed. I still very much believe, as many do now, that power of cross training and what I can do for aerobic ability. Yeah. And you've spent years almost base building, but without having the physical specific demand that running gives you. So, you know, inherent in that is a low training age for running. Yes. So although you've been running for triathlon for 15 years, it's very different. And I'd like to hear more about the transition from running for triathlon to running for running. So I went the other way around, running for running to running for triathlon. So that always meant I would try and run too fast in triathlons because I thought it was a runner. And, you know, you came kind of the other way. I think that training age is such an important and overlooked element of particularly more senior athletes' capacity to load, you know, and capacity to be robust. So from taking yourself as a triathlete running three times a week to running as a 221 marathoner, like what things fundamentally shifted for you? I mean, the easy and quick answer is obviously volume. I mean, again, I think that glimmer of there was always the runner in there. When I got my European gold medal, for example, for the equestrian in Chatteroo, that was 2016. I ran, I think it was a 1509 5k out the water. So just by doing one track session a week, one kind of interval session a week, and then one base run, longer base run a week, that's where I was in triathlon day. So now I'm adding, you know, three more base runs around it. I'm doing a second track session in a week. So just by simply upping that volume, but actually critically having that age and experience of understanding my body and knowing if I was pushing it just a bit too far and actually going, you know, on the third and fourth day, now you need to take some time and go on the bike. Because I very rarely have a full day off. I mean, I never have done, again, not to triathlon background and stuff where you've got to try and fit it all in around a family in a busy job. So that's the other thing, like even my rest days will still have that aerobic engine ticking over on a turbo or a swim or something like that. So firstly, it was just that extra bit of volume. But then actually, it was starting to understand the psychology element of knowing how to hurt and really sort of having that ability of knowing where to push that boundary. So for example, in Surrey Leagues before, because of the lack of training and it wasn't my focus, I would watch all the guys go off at the front end and just be very happy battling it out with the usual guys that I was with. Now it was something that flipped. I mean, my first real breakthrough was I ran, I think it was 69 at Kingston half marathon to win that one year. That must have been 2019 or something. And Kev Quinn, good friend of mine, just said, Gaz, at some point it's going to hit you that actually all that triathlon training and that ability to kind of hurt, you're better than you think you are. And I just want you to go out so hard on the next session. And that was the next Surrey League was, and I came fourth. So I think just that ability of starting to understand, okay, if I just place a bit more structure around my running, a lot more volume, and actually just go out harder and just see what happens, that's what's really led me to where I am. And a little bit of confidence. Yeah, exactly. Confidence in that capacity and confidence in that ability to deliver. You mentioned learning how to hurt. How important do you think that is? Not just to run 221. Let's try and take the time out of that so we can make it relative for any marathoner, whether they're running Boston in the spring, or whether they're running New York in the fall, in the autumn, and trying to run, break six hours. So what does it mean to experience genuine discomfort for you in a marathon? In a marathon context, I mean, again, there'll be people listening to this that are way more qualified than I am. I've done four. If we discounted the ones on the back end of the jumping off a bike, which is just stupid, I know now. But I think, for me, certainly, just in its widest concept and stuff. And it goes back to your first question around that element of what makes me tick. I had to say this. People, I think, take racing far too seriously at times. They really don't want to race unless they're 100% fit, or they don't want to make themselves look stupid and stuff like that. And things like parkrun, this is where I've always said that's the benefit of parkrun, just go and hit the first 2K harder than you ever thought was possible, and see what happens. Are you likely to blow up? Absolutely. If you want to delete that off your Strava or something, then so be it. But I just think, for that time where you start to plateau, and you think you've reached that, you know, you can't make many more breakthroughs, go and challenge yourself and put yourself into situations where you're bordering on panic versus stretch on that scale. But actually, that's where the wonderful stuff starts to happen, because you'll either know very quickly that you can't, or actually, you'll have that moment of, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. And I have seen many, many athletes over the years that I thought could run and do so much better than they actually can, because they just are frightened of hurting that much, or putting themselves in that zone where they might make themselves look a bit silly and blow up. So that is where, for me, you know, you should be standing on a marathon. Every start line of every major race I've ever had, genuinely, hand on heart, I've always felt more relaxed than I've ever felt in my life. I'm never nervous, ever, because I figure at that point, if you've not done the prep, and you've not done some of the races that test those boundaries as to where you are, that's where you might be in a bit of trouble. But actually, what will be, will be on the day. These things are hard enough as it is. Stuff can happen that's out of your control, and you need to just stand on that start line, knowing you've done everything possible. And that is the beauty of racing and pushing yourself hard in the build-up, and then treating the marathon like it's always your reward to go collect that medal. How do you replicate that in training, so that you can enter that state of mind on the morning of, and then in the race? You know, so are there key workouts that you think to yourself, okay, I'm going to put myself here, because, like, it's just you, you're on your own, or maybe with a group, you're going to do a key workout, and it's going to expose you to a certain set of conditions, and then, you know, you know that you'll be able to cash that check on marathon day, but you've almost got to go through it first to understand. So, like, do you have any, okay, I would do these, this is, these are the ones that I think they've made the most difference. What would you do? Definitely, I've got two markers that I use currently, so we're quite fortunate that where I'm based, 5k away is an old airfield, so it's flat, but it is concrete horribleness. It's always windy, as you would expect, and there's two sessions that I do up there. The first is two by five mile steady, five mile at marathon pace, and, you know, you're fueling that, or treating that as if that's your actual marathon day, and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, you really are trying to make that a real breakthrough session, and then the other one that I'll do similarly up there is just a really decent, easy warm-up, and then it's an hour, basically, of really trying to sort of top it out, and sit on that pace for an hour. So, again, two miserable sessions, hard sessions, really tricky. Ideally, you know, you've got either someone on a bike that can hand you something, or you're, because it's on a loop, you're able to do those kind of fueling strategies and things that you can test. But, again, whenever I've stepped off that airfield, knowing that I can do it there, and that I've got that in the bank, and that typically is still right up to, I think, even London. I think I dropped that session twice. The first time, I got nowhere near it, absolutely nowhere near it, and that was about eight weeks out, and then the second time that I did it was about three weeks out. So, that was the first time, psychologically, I'd turned that corner and gone, okay, I've got this. So, you're putting some real baseline, kind of benchmark sessions in, and I love that hour session. That's actually something I do set frequently. It's pretty simple, isn't it? Run as far as you can in an hour. Yep. Is the game plan for me with that one. Yep. So, how was London itself? So, let's talk for a few minutes just about the London 2022, your fourth race, fourth marathon. Like, how did it go? I'm going to sound so ungrateful, stupid, whatever way you want to put it. It was a shambles, but it was an absolute shambles. So, for you personally, like, what do you mean? Just the day. I mean, it's funny because I can laugh about it now. So, my club, South London Harriers, you know, we've been at a presence, let's say, at that race since the very first one, but with volunteers and runners and all sorts through it, right? So, every year, there's a big old squad of South London Harriers that goes up to the marathon, and our coach didn't turn up. So, we are now... You mean, like, the transport as opposed to the person? Yes, good point. Yeah, the transport didn't turn up. So, we are now scrambling, like that episode of Only Fools and Horses, for those that know it, as you run from the train station trying to find the only available hotel. We are scrambling for people that have got cars that are willing to drive us to the marathon. So, I get to the championship start as they're pulling the shutters down on the trucks, and I'm not even changed. So, I'm butt naked, hopping around the field, putting my kit on, getting everything I could, and then being that guy that's elbowing his way to the front to try and get where he needs to go with lots of sorry, sorry. So, my first 5k was absolutely rapid because my heart rate must have been high before the gun went off, right? So, I got very fortunate at that point that I settled in with a really good group who were all going for 218 on the day, and I knew that was way more than I had in my locker. I had done every training session to literally just dip under that 220 mark. So, 218 was always going to be a case of when those matches burn, not if. But I felt comfortable. I felt good. I looked behind me. I couldn't see a group that I could latch onto behind me if I did drop. So, I thought, you know what? Hopefully, underlining my point earlier, if I blow up, I blow up. It's not the world's worst thing. At least I've given it a crack and I'll know where my bar is. And it was only on mile 20. I mean, again, note to self, I was seeing all of those other boys had little people, minions out on the course with these little bottles of water and everywhere and everything because we didn't get the professional aid station tables. And I'm just doing what I can with what's available on the course of a couple of gels that I've taken with me. So, it was a definite note to self to try and get ahead of the game a little bit. But when we turned the corner on mile 20, I knew straight away it was, again, that benefit of being older that I thought, okay, this is hot today. Like, that sun had really broken through at that point. It was a very warm day. The wind had really picked up on the slight drag that is the embankment all the way back up to the marathon bit. So, if I hang on to this group, I'm coming home in 230. I know it straight away. And on reflection, it's the best decision. I couldn't have raced that race any better because I brought all but one of those guys back to me by the end of that marathon. So, only one of them actually finished on 218. The rest of them were all behind me. And so, having that knowledge at that crucial moment in the race. Yeah. It's a card game, isn't it? You're putting your cards, you're deciding to play your hand at that moment and it's either I'm gonna just throw everything at this and I'm going or I am gonna be cautiously optimistic that I've got the goods in the tank to keep this truck in at the pace that I want. Correct. Exactly that. Exactly that. And I mean, people have asked me afterwards, could you go any faster? Can I go faster? Yes. Could I have gone faster that day? Absolutely not. I didn't even look at my watch for the last four miles. Like, I literally just knew all I've got to do is just get myself home. So, I literally ran as quick as I was left but knowing that if I tried, as I say, to stay with them. And that was 100% the right decision. The temperature on the day, the wind on the day, everything. And I knew I hadn't taken enough fuel at that point as well. So, then I finish and I'm in an absolute heap. I get my wonderful, beautiful London 2022 marathon medal but I forget to pick up my master's medal. So, we all have our usual debrief at the pub. Some of the masters at the club had said, oh, you know, you missed out there. So, I wrote to the guys on the Monday. Just said, look, I'm really sorry but my office isn't far from London Marathon Trust. Would I be okay to come and get one? They were very sweet, sent it out. But still no mention of anything until I get to the Friday and the aforementioned Kev Quinn and I are on a call together. And he said, you do realise you're world champion? And I went, what do you mean? And he said, you're actual world champion? And I said, no, because I haven't done. I only did Manchester this year and that's not on the Matt Abbott's marathon list. And I said, no, so I haven't got it, mate. And he went, no, that's the ranking. That was the standalone world championships. I had no idea at the time, during and even after the race that I had got that world championship. So, yeah, it was an absolute shambles, mainly from my own sense of a day, basically. I bet that bus driver was popular. Yeah, his Google reviews are interesting. Let's put it that way. Hey, so of course, often the question you ask somebody who is the reigning age group world champion is, are you going to retain it? Chicago. Chicago 2023 is the Abbott World Marathon majors race this year. That's the plan. I've had a bit of a health scare since that point, which has been very frustrating and I'm still feeling a bit of side effects. But look, that's in many, many months time. So I'm very hopeful that the scans will be back soon and will give me the full all clear that I need and I'll crack on. Because I honestly genuinely feel that course seemingly is a bit flatter and faster, hopefully a bit cooler than it was in London. And I will also then get that learning from the nutrition strategy right. There's no reason to suggest that I can't go quicker than 221 for sure. So that's kind of, I like it, a really open target. You know what, Gary, it sounds to me Dino will be listening to this thinking he sounds like he's taking it to the Americans. Yeah. This sounds like a bit of a, you know, a bit of a threat. It's a bit of smack talk, isn't it? Gary Laborn's coming to get you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think I'll end up coming back with my tail between my legs. But yeah, for now, that's absolutely the attitude that, you know, there's been plenty of high quality Americans have come to London Marathon and taken it. There are medals back home with them. So yeah, absolutely. I'm coming to Chicago. Fantastic. Coming to Chicago. Well, I'm really looking forward to seeing how that goes, Gary. We'll keep tabs on you. Any marathons before that, or will that be marathon number five? You're going to see how things go in the spring. You got anything planned? Yeah, I'd like to do London again. I mean, all jokes aside, you sort of said about the day itself. I mean, I have run it once before when it was very, very early days, my first ever marathon there. But critically, I've been up to support, as I say, and seen team members and stuff up there. And just what a day. It's incredible. If you're a British runner, certainly one based in London, there's just nothing like it. It's incredible. So yeah, the intention is to try and do London again this year. As I say, I've got to work through a few bits at the moment with the old ticker. But yeah, it should be fine, hopefully, and be ready to go for that. And then over the summer, just try and hit a bit of road league, couple of half marathons and we'll be back into that 12 week block before we know it. Fantastic. Looking forward to it. Well, Gary, Abbott World Marathon Major, World Champion 2022 V40. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you very much, sir. We are almost wrapped up for episode nine. But finally, the first issue of Majors is out now. It's an inside look at the Abbott World Marathon Majors. And this first edition features interviews with Chicago Marathon Race Director Kerry Pienkowski, reigning series wheelchair champion Susanna Scaroni, and a special feature charting the phenomenal career so far of Elliot Kipchoge, plus loads more of great stuff. Check it out on the Abbott World Marathon Majors social media channels or on their website. I do have a cheeky look at this, Dina. You're in it, aren't you? You're in it on page 12. I am? Yes, you are. Sorry. I didn't see that at all. Yeah, sure you didn't. It's under your pillow, isn't it? I didn't say the website because our conversation last time about forward slashes and backward slashes, I've had it wrong. And I'm just going to admit it right here. There you go. Well, you are in the first issue of Majors. You are on page 12. I think you're holding up the six star medal, looking pleased and proud. And so you should be. What will you be doing in the next couple of weeks? I'm going to the theatre. It's my mum's birthday. My mum loves going to the theatre. So last year, I took her to the Theatre Royal in Bath. And this year, I'm just taking her more local. But we're going to go and watch a production of Sherlock Holmes. That is lovely. It's becoming a tradition for the two of you then. Yeah, yeah. Well, she dragged me along for many years. So I'm just paying her back. I'm also going to be starting some strength work. I've got a little bit of a niggly back and things like that. And it's so important, particularly in the winter, I think. I need to do some more strength work. So I have tentatively started a little strength program. And I ache. Like I ache because I haven't done any strength work for ages. I feel like I've just lifted it. All I've done is lifted like a 20k barbell a little bit. And already I'm like dragging my knuckles down the road when I'm walking. The amazing thing with a strength program is that although you get sore in like random weird places, like waking up those muscles, but you see progress so quickly. So that'll be fun to follow along and see how strong you're getting. Maybe you'll be squatting your body weight by the end of the year. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'll be like Ryan Hall-esque. I doubt it. What about you, Dina? Oh, my mileage is going to be building for that April marathon. But my husband has been gone all month and comes home this week. So I'm super happy to have him back after he's been gone training with the Mammoth Track Club. So more skiing for my daughter. And I have just had a really big kick out of being able to watch her ski this year and see her development and how strong she's gotten. It's a lot of pride as a parent looking on on a sport I know nothing about, but I could clearly see progress in. Fantastic. So we've all got quite a couple of weeks. I hope you fill it wisely and enjoy the run wherever it takes you.