“We No Longer Rely On U.S.”: Dutch Defence Minister Delivers Sobering Message To Trump

Regardless of whomever is living at the White House at that moment, we have to be able to stand up for ourselves. And I'm very glad that the Dutch public really does get that. But for me to remain, to have their support, we have to, and I have to get a better narrative. And I will look to my colleagues in the other parts of Europe to get that. Member states and big companies of the European Union are participating in those projects. So there are very tangible developments. Thank you. the Netherlands Dylan is doing something a lot of concrete work just give us an example of some of what the Netherlands are doing that other countries can potentially take away when it comes to strengthening security and not i don't want to say it's not i'm not being facetious but not just relying on NATO or having that kind of umbrella well and thank you also for that question because know for many many years in the Netherlands we have been defunding the military and our armed forces and when the large-scale invasion of Ukraine happened i think like the rest of the world we all realized it was way too naive just trying to rely on the notion of peace it is just not there so we've been starting investing in our own armed forces but immediately also starting support Ukraine. And we support Ukraine on different levels. We support with material when it comes to F-16s or tanks or drones, with training. And what we also do with so many different levels with funds, we are really learning for our own armed forces from Ukraine. They are sharing their data with us. So what they are experiencing on the front field and in the battlefield, they are exchanging their data with us. So our armed forces are really training, as you speak, every day with the knowledge the Ukrainians have. Because as we know, and it was mentioned this morning earlier, that at one point we were all trying to help Ukraine. And now Ukraine is teaching us because of what they have been experiencing. But they have the most innovative army in Europe. So we are learning from them. And what we are doing at the same time, also for me very important to keep the support of the Dutch public for all these efforts, is investing in our own defense industry. Because it was also, of course, due to a lack of spending, not that strong anymore. And in Europe we have that issue. So we are investing in our own industry and we do it in a way that we work together with Ukraine. So we have our joint cooperation when it comes to producing drones, for example, which is helping out Ukraine, which is helping out our own industry. And we are learning it for our own armed forces. And I think that will be crucial for the upcoming time. Because I see everywhere in Europe and definitely in our part of Europe, well, maybe even a lack of support towards Ukraine by the people. And this is very important to keep that support and to remain that support. It is also important to show Ukraine is fighting for our own safety and security. We know that. We know that Putin will not stop in Ukraine. but we are also investing in our own industry and we are building up our own army, our own armed forces with all the knowledge we get from Ukraine. So I think that these three points are very important and we have a unique position in our part of Europe that our parliament and the people are really supporting these efforts towards defence and towards Ukraine. And it all starts with knowing that this is not only helping out another country this is also helping out yourself. Romelu, thank you so much for that. Romualdas, when it comes to Hungary, obviously you've had a change in leadership relatively recently, so that's changed the dynamic, but that support of the population, is it there? You took in a lot of Ukrainian refugees as well, so that kind of also changes the dynamic. Absolutely. First of all, thank you for inviting me here, because the previous government was not allowed to join the European conversation. Therefore, I really thank you for everybody who invited us here today. Yes, in April, in the middle of April, we changed the former government and the main aim was to face it back to Europe, to face it back to the West in our point of view. And we have a pretty large support still until the election phase, but it doesn't mean that the mindset of the Hungarian society changed dramatically. So as you were a former officer, a former chief of defence, so I see a little differently the defense of Europe, of course, in a more practical way than the theoretical and political way. I was in a front line in Ukraine when I was a chief of defense in 22. I visited the whole front line to get the deputy chief of Ukraine. So I know exactly what's happening there. And it's horrible. We have to stop somehow. We have to stop what's happening there the ceasefire is more than essential would be because every day people are dying there. So I'm sure the whole Europe can agree with that statement. We have to reach somehow to have a ceasefire there. What is the difficulties? Let me quote here Clausewitz and his triangle. A war will continue if the will will not change of the society, the government and the defense forces. Every war is about this. Somehow you have to turn or have to break one of the edge of this triangle in both sides. This is the basic principle of every war. You cannot change it. So therefore it's very difficult because if you see what's happening in Ukraine right now, both governments want to continue, both societies support this one, and the defense forces just moving back and forth 10 kilometers. So I cannot see any reality this will change in a short period of time. So if we talk about the Europe defense is very important when it's happening in Ukraine, in the Ukrainian soil, due to the Russian-Ukraine war. But in parallel, we do not forget the other part of Europe. And then for Hungary, it's very important. So therefore, our group just came back from the Baltic states, where provided air policing to the three Baltic countries. And parallel, please do not forget the Western Balkan. If you see the Western Balkan, it's a neighbor for us as well, not only Ukraine, but the Western Balkan is very close to Hungary, and Hungary continues sending troops there, not only in the KFOR, but even the EU mission in Althea. And I am very proud of our military, because from the region, Hungary is the only one who got the leadership there, so Hungarian generals lead the KFOR and the EUFOR mission. So this is what we have to do, this is what we have to continue, that somehow we have to find a common voice of the European countries, not only the European Union, but the European countries, to have somehow a common interest. Because if you see the different countries as different interests, and different countries in Europe see the threats and the danger differently, absolutely different from the point of view from north and south and west and east and even in the middle, but somehow we have to have a red line and we have to agree with different and I'm sure that will be the basic how can we continue and figure out our common defence policy. Well, that's an excellent point and thank you. Tore, from the point of view of Norway, obviously Norway partnering with the Warsaw Security Forum for this edition, you have a very different perspective. Romelos already touched upon how different aspects of Europe how they're touched by this European war in different ways the further away you get from it there is a completely different perspective so how can Europe unite in order to sing the same hymn so to speak first and foremost by stepping up taking our responsibility not leave it for the Americans as we've done for the last 40 years And for Norway, the perspective is from a polar projection. And what we see in the north at the Kola Peninsula, the biggest concentration of nuclear arms in the world, not directed towards Norway, but towards Los Angeles, Chicago, Toronto, New York, and of course towards London, Paris, Berlin. Because even though Putin is losing heavily in the front line down in Ukraine, Losing 1,000 soldiers each day still, more than that in September. And even though the Russian civilian economy is a disaster and in recession, the war economy is unfortunately going pretty well. Even though he's struggling with that, we can see that he still is heavily investing in the north, in the northern fleet. With new frigates, with new submarines, silent submarines, which can leave the Barents Sea and hide on the depth in the Norwegian Sea. The Barents Sea is shallow waters, 200 meters deep on average. The Norwegian Sea is down to 2,000 meters. So we have to keep track of those submarines before they go out there. And these submarines are silent. So we say that we are tracking the sound of silence for collective security of Europe and North America. And even though he's struggling in the economy and in Ukraine, he's heavily investing in new capacities up there testing new weapon systems we are watching that 24/7 365 days a week there's a year together with especially together with UK and and our American friends but also more common with Germany and France going up there because this is a threat to the whole alliance and we can see the new weapon systems now in this testing season Last year, they tested this Skyfall or Burevestnik missile, which fled for 14 hours, which can also carry a nuclear warhead. And they're testing this Poseidon underwater drone or torpedo, which can travel at a speed up to 80 knots, carrying a nuclear warhead. And it's designed to explode outside a populous city to create a radioactive tsunami. We are following these tests, and we are tracking this for the whole alliance, reporting back to NATO and our close allies. So this is the polar projection, and we need to keep this flank safe. That is our task. We are the ears and the eyes of NATO up there. And we can also see, as the polar ice is melting, the seas are opening. And China has proclaimed themselves as a near Arctic nation. being more often up there, building new icebreakers, nuclear-driven icebreakers. The northeast sea route is 5,000 kilometers shorter from Shanghai to Rotterdam than going through Suez, and Suez is a vulnerable place at the moment, and will be for some years. So we can see the strategic competition is also rising in the Arctic. Therefore, also, we have this Arctic century together with NATO. And we know that Putin has a kind of ambiguity about China coming up there because he wants to be a hegemon up there. So the strategic importance of the Kola Peninsula is getting even more important for Russia. They're locked in in the Black Sea because of Bosporus, controlled by NATO and Turkey. They have problems in the Baltic Sea, surrounded after Sweden and Finland joined by NATO. so what's happening in the north is getting more important for the whole alliance so to deter Russia up there to step up in Europe to take the burden shift seriously I think Norway will lead in that way in the north and we think that's the main responsibility for us just to conclude about the Americans the Americans will stay in NATO because this is homeland defense for USA But we need to take our responsibility. And we, together in NATO and the Ankara Summit, we took responsibility for the burden shift for hunting submarines, together with close allies, many of those sitting here as well. And we used to say, if you're afraid that the US is going to leave NATO, or if you want them to stay, the answer is the same. We need to spend more in Europe and Canada. That's the best way to keep them close. And if they should leave, we don't think so, then we have to spend a lot more. So the answer is the same. Europe has to step up. We have to take our responsibility. We are going to do that in Norway, and we will also follow up for Ukraine. So thank you. Thank you. Andreas, we've had a really good overview now of what individually countries are doing, the broader picture, the differences between the different regions within Europe. Are these nations getting it right? Well, definitely, you know, on the European continent, in the European Union, defense is very much prerogative of member states. So member states are coordinating their defense plans with NATO. NATO is negotiating with member states and finding agreement on so-called capability targets. We, as the European Union, we are coming with our economical instruments to help member states to deliver what is needed for our defence. So that's where we did safe loans, now we have Ukrainian support loan, we are looking for next MFF, we know that it will be much, there will be much more money for common projects, we are developing common projects, pan-European projects, so a lot of things are really developing European continent from that point of view, and I agree absolutely with our Norwegian colleague that really we need to understand very much that our need to build our defence capabilities is our own responsibility, not because Americans do not love us anymore, as somebody maybe thinks, but simply because geopolitical development, global geopolitical development and military development is going in such a way that China is rising and definitely Americans will shift, because of very clear defence logic, much more of their resources towards that region. And this is, you know, we should maybe, how to say, we should not allow ourselves to complain too much about that development, but really much more seriously and much more urgently should look into our responsibility to take this primary responsibility on conventional European defence as it is now set in this NATO 3.0 concept. That will demand a lot from us, and not only to develop our material capabilities or strategic enables where we are dependent on American services, but also to find the institutional ways how to become much more united on European continent in order to have much stronger European pillar of NATO, which is the same what NATO 3.0 is talking. And that is why Commission President in her State of the Union address, for example, she said in a very clear way, we need to understand that our institutions on European continent, our doctrines and our decision-making, which were created during peacetime, are perhaps not fit anymore to those developments which we are facing now. That is why she proposed to look into possibility to have what is called European Security Council with Norway, with member states, and including Ukraine, including United Kingdom, and even Canada, which is close to Europe. I think that those developments, those transformations are very important for us. We need to understand that this is really organic task for us, and we need to build what is needed. And I definitely want to just bring the rest of the panel in, but just one more to you, Andreas. You're talking about institutions across Europe, but you know that European nations are becoming increasingly polarized. I mean, Hungary's just kind of coming out of that phase of it. And you also know that the United States and their security statement, they are supporting those kind of populist leaders who encourage polarization. So this idea of institutions being, helping spread this idea of Europe 3.0, whatever, you know, NATO 3.0, however you want to say it, on the ground, it doesn't translate because people aren't voting that way. Well, people are, if you were looking to opinion polls in general, You will see very clearly that European voters, European citizens, they are naming very clearly that one of the biggest concerns for them is security and defense. This is, you know, what we need to understand. And second, they are looking very much for Europe to becoming stronger in defense, even on European defense, as they call. So this is, again, very clear. Second, definitely we need to understand that Russians, Russia, Moscow, Kremlin, are using all the hybrid instruments to weaken us politically. So we need to defend ourselves, that's for sure. And I will not discuss too much of United States domestic politics, you know, midterm elections and so on, that is politics, really. We need to really much more to look into our own needs and our capabilities. And I see from American defence experts and military experts very clear message that they want Europe to become stronger in defence. In my understanding, in order to become stronger in defence, we need to become more united, not less united in Europe. So one of the problems which we are facing when we are talking about material, you know, things related with defence, about our defence industry, is exactly what was described by Mario Draghi. Our defence industry is very much fragmented. We do not have an integrated defence market. That makes our industries not so strong as we would like to see. And in order to overcome this fragmentation, we need to look at how we can become politically more united on defense. That is where Security Council comes in with possibilities among us, among, you know, member states, especially leading member states, to have much more clear vision and practical decisions, how we can overcome our weaknesses, including fragmentation. Thank you very much. Still, more defence, arguably, is more spending. And you've got this dual aspect. You're the Deputy Prime Minister of the Netherlands, also the Minister of Defence. So you can see where the friction and the tension lies because people are worried about the cost of bread, milk, butter, whatever it is. But to Andreas's point, more defence is more spending. How do you take the people with you? Well, this is the debate right now in the Netherlands. On the one hand, we have the reforms for the social affairs and the health care, but we know at the same time this is completely disconnected from defense, because if we don't reform, then later on our children and grandchildren will not have the best health care, for example, or the social care we can provide them. So that is the reforms, and we have the spending for defense, and there are obviously people and parties who are connecting those really together. So it's very important for us to make sure that they are viewed separately. For me, as the Minister of Defence, it comes also with a huge responsibility to show the people how we are spending the money. And there's also a paradox in that right now going on, that the clearer the aggressor gets, the clearer the enemy gets, the less transparent we can get about our spending, because you don't want to give all the information to your opponent. So that's a paradox in our democracies, and it's very important that we keep explaining why. And I think that's also a part of what we must do way better in the western part of Europe and probably also the south, is that you were just mentioning about the populist parties gaining ground. It is, for a few of those parties, or a part of them, it is also the Russian propaganda finding a very fruitful hearing and a place they can send their message to and i think that our narrative needs to get stronger because the story of the other is way less factual and a way a lot more stronger for people to get connected to so we had a very interesting debate last week in the Netherlands i presented my budget i defended my budget in parliament and i said in my introduction you know and we have been calling Putin the aggressor but we must be honest he is the enemy we are not at war with him but he is very clear about his objective towards Ukraine and the rest of Europe and immediately the discussion started in the Netherlands can we call him an enemy i was like it's very clear about his motives so maybe it's a better focus to sit on you know what do we need to do and are we doing the correct things and are we helping out each other enough instead of are we allowed to call the opponent whatever he is and and that showed me very profoundly that we are lacking of a good narrative we are lacking of a good story because in Poland and around us the countries they know really well what Russian propaganda is they know really well what disinformation is and i think that the further you get the less we realize and we think that this fight this struggle is is going to be finished with tanks and drones and counter drones which is not this will start and end with communication and who controls that part who controls the narrative and i think that we have to be very aware of that and we in our part of Europe need your help to get that narrative right because you know what you're talking about and it's too far for us so this is also i think an interesting level on protecting yourself but in the Netherlands again it's definitely in our part of Europe i have i'm very grateful that we have the majority of parliament supporting the defense spending a majority of the people supporting not only the defense spending but also the extra help we give to Ukraine the Netherlands is in the top five countries helping out Ukraine 14% of the military help comes from us as being a small country which has been defunding our armed forces for decades so we're done with being naive we're done with relying on our big brother or sister in America regardless of whomever is living at the White House at that moment we have to be able to stand up for ourselves and I'm very glad that the Dutch public really does get that but for me to remain to have their support we have to and I have to get a better narrative and I will look to my colleagues in the other parts of Europe to get that. 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