Using AI to Shop for a Car? Are the Answers Bought and Paid For?: Ep. 137

When it comes to buying a new vehicle, no doubt a lot of folks switch from Googling what car they should buy to asking their favorite LLM. But are the answers you're getting paid for by advertisers? Well, we all know that Google search results page became a cesspool of sponsored links quite a long time ago. But has ChatGPT gone down that route already? It took Google decades to dissolve into what it's become, and it seems like Google's replacement isn't wasting any time in the hunt for profits. So what's really going on here? Well, up next, we'll have a fascinating guest from an AI firm who's discovered some interesting things going on in the world of car research, car shopping, and artificial intelligence. Stay tuned. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Corey. Very excited to have you here. Maybe you could give us a little background on yourself, a little bit about CarGenius, what you do there. I guess it's your own company, uh what what the company does and then maybe i'm curious just how you wound up you know founding this company what got you into this whole industry in the first place that's a lot of questions but maybe you can give us yeah i love it um well well thanks for having me on and i love to talk about what we're doing because i think it's a really exciting topic right now um so yeah i'm the founder and CEO of CarGenius AI but i've been building automotive for the last 15 years plus so um before this i built a company called autolist.com and we were building when these things are becoming very popular and consumers are shifting from desktop to mobile as far as their car shopping behavior. And we built the leading apps for car shoppers on iOS and Android in the US, built that to millions of monthly shoppers, sold the company to CarGurus in 2020, and spent a couple years inside of CarGurus. So I have a marketplace background, and a lot of that is focused on the consumer side of car buying. And really, that's what brought me to build what I'm building today at CarGenius is as trying to build a marketplace for consumers, dealers are probably an important part of that. And the way third-party marketplaces work today typically is you offer a product to consumers, but you charge the dealers. And there's a conflict in business model a little bit in how you operate. And that impacts valuations and it impacts your ability to grow the business. But more importantly, it impacts your product and your ability to innovate. Because to innovate in automotive retail, you need to be working with dealers. So the point of Car Genius AI, our mission, And our vision is to fix some of the problems we saw in the marketplace by bringing the dealers directly into the platform where transactions and shopping activity is going to happen, which is, you know, we see being more and more AI, large language models, whatever you want, ChatGPT, right? So that's what we're building. Interesting. Very cool. Yeah, it's fascinating. I just look at it from like when I looked at your site, when I first sort of stumbled across you guys, it's you are more dealer focused than consumer focused. and we're always consumer-focused over here. So I try and keep that in mind, but there's obviously a lot of, you know, there are sort of all parts of the car-buying equation, right? I think, and in this, maybe, I think it's somewhat adversarial sometimes, but I think in this instance, there's a clear case where what you've highlighted sort of indicates that there may be some things going on that both the dealers should know to protect themselves and make sure they can run a successful business model and that consumers should know so that they're well-prepared when buying a car? Simple example, right? Like you want a Carfax report when you're buying a used car, right? And you go into a third-party marketplace and try and get a Carfax report and you can't, right? You end up getting like a link to pay for an Experian report or something like that that's going to cost you $40. If you go to that dealer's site, look at the vehicle detail page on that dealer's site, nine times out of 10, they have the Carfax report. There's more information there. So there's information that's being withheld by the consumer on the marketplace side. That's just, then there's many more like that, right? Simple example that everyone gets. But yes, I think that there's a lot of value in getting the buyer in touch with the install of the vehicle. Cool. So maybe if I preamble this a little bit, I stumbled across a post you had made on LinkedIn. I had never heard of Cardus. That's on me. And I think there's always lots to learn in this world. It was a sort of, in a sense, anecdotal post. But what it shared to me seemed sort of troubling. It sounded like if you're using an LLM to do your car research, that the results you're getting might not be as sort of unbiased as some algo or some agent creating that content. So I've actually got a bunch of the slides that I think you shared online, and I can kind of run through them as you talk, maybe, if I can keep up. But I'd love for you to sort of share what that post was about and kind of what you guys have discovered before we dive into anything else. Yeah, super interesting, right? And contextually, we run tens of thousands of searches across the US, across makes and models to understand what is happening on a daily basis inside of large language models as regards to car shopping. If you're trying to understand the reputation of a dealership, if you're trying to find particular inventory, or you're trying to figure out servicing. So we're running this data set daily across all makes and models and across all geographies. And that's kind of where we start to look at what's going on and see things that are interesting. And this one was interesting to us in the behavior we saw, particularly around ChatGPT, asking more questions to a user before AI returns an answer. So it would say, hey, you're looking for a RAV4, are you going to finance it? What's your price range? And things like that. And one of the questions was, are you going to take cash or are you going to finance? And if you pick finance, what happens is you end up getting a user experience where it pulls an inventory. it's a good answer but the inventory instead of linking to the dealership it links to Capital One for all the vehicles right and this is a local dealership it has that those vehicles but instead of linking to the local dealer it links to Capital One because ChatGPT thinks you're going to have a better user experience potentially going to Capital One than to the actual dealer and if you scroll down there's an ad for Capital One which you know maybe it's a coincidence maybe not um but but you know this user experience is very different than the typical chat response you see which you know i think piqued my spidey sense so like is this being more guided by humans and product managers than it is being the large language model just returning answers because you know as a when using AI for a long time and typically the answers you get back it vary from you know day to day user to user there's consistent themes but like you see text coming back um and dynamic answers and this looks a lot more like something that's structured so i was like this is interesting let's see what's going on here which kind of sparked the post i put up um you know i don't necessarily say that they're taking and putting their sponsor people up there but like there is something in in how this is crafted that seems a lot more intentional than a typical large language model answer you would see so i think it's interesting direction that the ai tools are going um on both the the answers linking to you know third parties that it might be doing something differently associated with advertising but also in the interviewing right so the ai is you know explicitly interviewing the consumer with buttons not what they're looking for um which which is a change yeah it's very different and to me like it's it's i see sort of like the the good and bad of this like the the from a a helpful perspective for everyone involved um you know it's it's i mean again i have to think that this is this is designed to to move you further down the funnel and and you know basically activate on a sale right which is actually helpful because in the sense that if you are looking to buy it's actually helping you get the best you know vehicle they're they're they're they are moving you down so they're rather than just sort of landing you at a you know a very first question like hey what's a good car and they say Rav4 buy it here right they're they're actually giving you a lot of information and they're getting you pretty far down that funnel to like here's what i really want here's what i want to pay here's what i use it for like this is this is good and then i suspect then the conversion rate is dramatically higher than what it would be before right so that's that's good but i also look at this you know from the consumer standpoint i'm thinking like when you said the capital one stuff i was like so like normally these links would probably just go to a local dealer right or to toyota.com or something and we know with your zip code already in there but the fact that it's you know at the ad and the majority of the links go to capital one to me says like Capital One is paying for it right I don't know that you know I don't know that we can make that allegation uh you know categorically but that certainly seems like the uh the likely result right where there's smoke there's fire so yeah and I can't demo for you here but I I've seen a fellow entrepreneur of mine building tools in the job market space And there are these products inside of ChatGPT where you can stumble into it and start to see job posts that only come from Indeed. And you can do a search as something very specific like I want to see jobs at Raytheon. That's a very specific company. And it won't go and pull the job page from Raytheon It pulls it from Indeed. And there's UTM parameters in those clicks that seem to indicate that it's some sort of sponsored partnership product and we know ChatGPT has partnership products right so there's the Yelp partnership where you know the the map um pack that comes in on certain local searches is using Yelp data and they have an agreement with Yelp so it does seem like there are some of these deals going on behind the scenes for data and certain types of user experiences and this did start to feel like one of those things right yeah yeah but but but not disclosed that we know of right that's And in any of this I haven't seen disclosures of those things So yeah it's interesting Fascinating To me that was just so initially I would say Alarming that People think that they're Getting an unbiased Source but they're moving them down And maybe even the source The actual truth of it is unbiased But where they're actually moving you to buy In the end is not unbiased Because to be fair If you live in you know uh who was LA or you know San Francisco or something there's probably three Toyota dealers within 50 miles of you right so there are a lot of choices but you know uh and i do think like i think from a consumer perspective you're going to buy a car you should be before you go into the dealership you should be researching pricing online right like you should be doing your research on like what that car should cost you should be getting some sort of pre-approval for financing if you're going to buy the car with financing and you should value your trade in online so you go into the dealership with more information these are good things right so you should be doing them um and you know you can do that in a bunch of different places most dealership websites let you do that on their dealer on their website but as a consumer right you know you're really not gonna trust to do it there or you're shopping multiple dealerships so there's reasons why marketplaces add value today um and i understand why ai is saying them to to those tools today i think when you start to look into the future right like what happens in the future and um you know i also on my past company a marketplace we sold and we got consumers pre-approved financing on our platform. Now, I can tell you that didn't make us any money. And the reason it doesn't make us any money is because the best people to finance a car loan are the dealerships themselves, right? They have deep relationships with local banks and credit unions and their OEM. So you typically get the best financing in most situations from the dealer itself. So even if you get pre-approved online, the dealer still wins the deal at the end of the day. So when we start to think about where the opportunities are and our whole business is geared towards bringing dealers into large language models because it gets really good at going across multiple things and working with multiple data sources to bring that information into one cohesive view for a consumer. A consumer doesn't have to go to 10 different dealership websites to get price quotes on their trade-in, right? They don't have to go to CarMax, Carvana, so Tools.ai will do it for you. Muse will do it for you, right? So you can start to get a really helpful guide in car buying through AI when it can go and work on your behalf and if it can interact with the dealership, right? Like I have no doubt that the Capital One user experience is probably better than a local dealership experience today. And I know, you know, there's lots of reasons we could talk hours, you know, but most of those dealers are trying to do a better job, right? And they're trying to provide a better service to consumers to buy a car there, right? So, yeah, I think there's a ton of opportunity here that's going to be better for consumers and it's going to be better for dealers. And the large language models are going to provide a better experience. You know, when I saw this, I got pretty excited. because one of the reasons I started this business and I certainly believe it changes more than car shopping when AI becomes the front door of any sort of kind of search activity because we've been inundated with ads and the last 15-20 years has been like we're fighting for organic positions while your organic positions were taken away by paid places and you know who can pay more it's just like a tough place to be doing business and I think you know inside of car dealers they spend more and more on marketing and get less and less on returns, right? So I think there's an opportunity to upset that year and it's less about how much you can pay and more about who provides the better service. And I do truly think that that is the future inside of AI engines. And from what I hear Sam Altman on the stage when they talk about where this is going I think that's what they see as the vision. It doesn't mean they can't make money along the way, but I'm hopeful that we're moving in a direction where we have really clean, good, organic results but now it's alongside of them. We can hope, I guess. It was funny. You weren't here for my little preamble that I said. So the listeners who heard the start of the show, I basically start off basically talking about how it took Google 15 years to devolve into like, you know, sponsored link soup, right? And now like, I'm like, holy crap, like ChatGPT hasn't been around for that long and there's already, this is coming in there. They're seeing, you know, the dollars are very attractive. So we'll see if they, you know, go down the same route or not. So I think earlier when we were sort of conversing, emailing before the show, you had mentioned there was another article you had called ChatGPT is asking car shoppers more questions. Here's why dealers should care. So some of that we sort of just touched on, but maybe you could give us a little more insight on like what the evolution you've seen. I think we kind of just saw some of it, but that they're really, it's sort of a, I don't know, it's changed a lot in a very short period of time. Yeah, even between now, like I think this was like a week ago when we were talking about that. um so the change we saw is more of these interview packs right so instead of just coming to an answer and i think previously the chat experience while car shopping was back and forth with interviews but it would be like one question like do you have a price range or any features you're looking for and you would answer that and it would kind of move you through like a conversational type of filtering experience and it's very good right so i mean i bought my last car using ChatGPT and And I did parallel research using, I was using Autolist, my old site, and I narrowed it down to the car I was going to buy. And I was tracking price drops on it because I buy used cars typically that are like a few years out. And, you know, I had a view of what I was going to buy and I kind of gave ChatGPT the same kind of guidelines and it ended up in the same place, right? It recommended this car. But it wasn't me going through 20 pages of search results, right? It was three cars, right? And this is a top one. And this is like the backup and another one you might consider. And really interesting stuff is in the same sentence, it was recommending a car. It was also telling me about the dealership. So it's not just about like, this is the XC90 for you. It was like, and this dealership has this buying model and consumers have said this about it online and things like that. So super interesting behavior there once you get it narrowed down. But it was a lot of back and forth questions to get there, right? now it is you ask an open-ended question and it's like check boxes right like it's like select radio button one two three to narrow you down and that's more i think in my earlier comment it's like more guided by uh a human deciding what some of those questions i think should be versus the ai just predicting what the next text is going to be that's a different experience right um it lends itself to a more controlled answer right so if you go from letting ai ask the questions and you or however you want you can end up in different places versus a hey if you want to really narrow it down towards like hey we want to get the finance buyers into a position where we know who they are so we can give them the right product and this is how lead gen used to work in automotive so back in the day if you submitted a new lead on a new car lead maybe like you know how are you going to buy it like what's your trade in because you really want to understand to match you with the right buyer of that that lead so it does seem like it has some of those attributes in it and that's just me being a pessimist here right yeah yeah no i think you're right that it looks like it's uh yeah sort of there's a human intervention of the the the llm isn't going to just naturally send you down a buying funnel right like that's that's not uh you know unless it's you know coded one of its you know primary concerns is you know how to make money which maybe it is coded in but but ultimately like this that they've looked at you know some some techniques and then integrated those into it and it is still very helpful but i do it's funny how the uh i like you there's like the interview questions and how adding all these features like you said it's almost has transformed it into less of a conversational thing and more of like a web browser thing like it's it really is more like uh it's like an interactive web browser versus you know just the straight up lines of text going back and forth definitely definitely very interesting and you know hey more changes so just last week we started to see more of the AI and this is like answering things that it doesn't know right so it'll give you an answer and then in the same sentence it'll say but we're not sure about this right like this hasn't been verified or you know we we don't know that the dealership has this car right so it's starting to hedge a little bit more about things that previously it might just factually state like you know here's this car it's at this dealership lot it's like we can't verify that right so there's there's something happening where they're starting to look for more information, look for more clarification about what the answer might be and get the consumer to think more about it, which I thought was actually very interesting in the context of car shopping here. And I think, you know, the AI can obviously like hallucinate things. But now it seems to be more aware of that. And certainly in the last six months, it's doing a lot better job of fewer and fewer hallucinations and using more sources to pull information that's that's interesting and good uh because i know you had uh um again in earlier conversations mentioned about how when uh on the show we had had on a guy from Consumer Reports like four months ago who talked about four months is not that long but in the world of LLMs things move rapidly so and he was talking about like like wild hallucinations about what they speak sources for data for companies that didn't exist or those companies were totally other companies that were not related and now it sounds like we might actually get some transparency and then you know they'll i'm just gonna say i don't know this for sure but you know or or again this has been sourced by one website and uh you know 100 others that should have this info don't so you might want to look at this well it's been sourced by this website but it's also that website is recommending itself right so like these companies have put out like top 10 lists and things like that and they're on it so it's like some of these like i think the you know cat and mouse game of SEO types of tricks and games here right like you know that's maybe not playing out or it's playing out faster when the ai is staying a step ahead in a lot of cases and um it's taking the consumer side yeah that's like if i make my publish a list of the best podcasts and i put myself as number one and it's like okay and then and then you know google or you know some LLM reads that and hallelujah right that gets recommended so exactly information showing up in different places like reddit and other things like that it's you know it's hedging a little bit um where do you see this going like with this this sort of evolution of like we talked about buttons like do you sort of have a prediction or do you have like a uh an objective on your side from from your business of like what you're trying to sort of um you know what work in this new world yeah i think i may connect in the two things here between like the the consumer reports i think a lot of that was saying hey like we think that the data isn't as good as the consumer reports data right and like there's and i guess true right like uh the guy you had on he's an expert in car buying like most people are not expert in car buying and is ChatGPT as good as a reporter from consumer reports probably not yet right but but it's better than me and like i'm pretty good right so like it's better than the average person and it's better at getting lots of examples across the web so i do think that ChatGPT if not today is rapidly becoming the best place to go and for a consumer to buy a car and you know anecdotally we see this inside of the dealers we work with today like all of them say Like, you know, the consumers are underneath the desk, not just researching online, but in the showroom buying a car underneath the desk, you know, running ChatGPT and asking about F&I, finance and insurance and all those other things that are in the contract, which, you know, so I think this is happening, this is here, right? So, you know, I do think AI is becoming better at getting all this information and really helping you think through it. You know, where this is going, I think, and what we're building towards is you start to think about agent to agent, right? So it's not just you talking, chatting, asking a question to ChatGPT. And again, like four months ago, this wasn't as real as it is today, but you're using your Metamuse to kind of run your car life, right? You've got all your cars loaded in there and knows when you need an oil change. It knows when your lease is coming up and it's going to proactively start helping you do these things, right? So it can go and ping five local dealerships to get an appointment for an oil change. Oh, we know you have a 30,000 mile service coming up. We can go and see what the next appointment is. It can compare prices for you. It can make the appointment and bring you in to the place you should do it. And I think service is one example where local dealers, I think, can win more business by getting consumers into their store by offering them things digitally to an agent, right? like you don't want you know 50 emails about why an oil change is cheaper at your local Toyota dealership than you know going to Jiffy Lube um you might be a bit like maybe your agent will get that and you know push an information to you and um you'll you'll start going to your local dealership instead of going to Jiffy Lube right um you will be able to get your trade-in value They will tell you hey like you know it's a good time to go there's a special on a new lease your lease is coming up they can get you in faster now you don't really have to do as much research right So I do think we're moving to a world where we're going to use AI for research. I think consumers are still, you know, $50,000 car these days. I think that's the average now, a new car is something like $50,000. That's a big expense. And, you know, people are going to invest time in it, but that time isn't going to be as much spent on the minutia of calling 10 dealerships and kind of doing the part you don't like. It's going to be doing the part you like, and you're still going to test drive the car. I think you're still going to want to go in person, and there's enough complication in most of these transactions that it does make sense for a fair bit of it to happen in person. But a lot of the research, a lot of the digging in and building confidence, right? Like a consumer today can get in a much more confident position going into a dealership, and you're going to have a better time when you have more confidence. And I think it's going to change how dealers operate too, right? I think more and more dealers are using AI on their side. more and more dealers are shifting to models where you know it's easier to transact over AI and more transparently and i still get calls from friends that are dealership hey this person doesn't negotiate they're telling me they don't negotiate is that real yeah it's real like there's a line like where are you at let me double check but like that's real right like and more and more dealerships are trying to operate in a way just like i want to give a good experience not get like the last two dollars and i think consumers you know appreciate that as well um so i'm excited about where the future is going here with automotive and i think that ai creates a lot of opportunity to get uh and really improve the experience for consumers by bringing the dealers into into the equation much much much earlier and um with not just information but tools that help them communicate together right yeah so do you like just to kind of maybe even go back like what is like the the main you know for CarGeniuses like what is your main way of working with dealers now is it is it providing data or are you providing tools oh great question so um what we do is we create alternative infrastructure for a dealer that helps an agent interact with them so consumers go to your website and they look at html and they click on web forms ai today actually does the same thing yeah you know some browser goes to the website pulls down html clicks around gets blocked I mean, oftentimes, AI agents are getting blocked by these website providers, Amazon down to small vendors are blocking AI agents. So what we do is we provide a layer that sits on the dealership's domain, and it provides the same tools. You can search for cars, you can get details about a car, you can get a CARFAX report, you can schedule an appointment to come in and do a test drive, you can schedule your service appointments, all programmatically. So in a language the AI speaks, so it's kind of built on the same underlying technology. that all these ai engines use to build agentic commerce that is fascinating that's very because it's uh you know you hear lately I saw you know reports the other day about how 50 percent of the internet is bots now which is uh i always hesitate like people i think get the wrong idea just because it's 50 percent bot doesn't mean not all the bots are bad right like there are a lot of bad bots but there are like you said if you're using your like you said your metamuse to go in and do something and it's getting blocked because that that site is just like well look you know no no russian troll farms thanks and then all of a sudden you know it's like well yeah that's not what i am but but they they may just have a very simplistic bit of code that's blocking people so if you can actually interact um more directly that'd be uh i could see that as you know i'm sure you've got a good thing going so well hopefully and i think there's more and more people just blocking ai bots too like they don't want an ai on their site and you know i think that actually makes a lot of sense for consumer reports right if you're a consumer reports you don't want bots coming and stealing your value right and then giving it away for free but a car dealer or anyone selling anything i really think should be as open as possible because you want the bots in because it's not a bot that's a bot working on behalf of the people right and it's moving towards the transaction so i think this new way of of agentic shopping or bots using the internet is actually going to be really good for people selling things because they're going to want to get their information out there as much as possible. Yeah, I could think of those mom and pop shops that sell a thousand things on eBay or something. If you could just have your own agent handling, you come home and then it's like, oh, these 45 things you had listed were sold. All you have to do is then manually go and put them in a box and send them out the door. That could get pretty lucrative pretty quickly. A lot of interesting things, yeah. Yeah, cool. Well, I noticed just one other thing from your site that I thought was interesting was the dealer AI visibility page. And I'll give you a chance to promo your site all you want. But I really feel like, to me, that was something really cool that just, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it was a web page that they would list. look in any geo in any city um these are the top recommended dealers by LLMs in your area which I feel like if if I was a dealership owner I would be on that page right now, that is the point right so we we do this in depth for the dealers we work with so our customers we actually create multi-page reports that look across all the large language models about how their dealership shows up and we kind of segmented on this find buy and service kind of structure and it means like you know what does the LLM think about your reputation can it find your actual inventory and does it source your store as the source of that and then what does it think about your service shop and those can be all different things so it's like important to think about all of them together um so we kind of do that like these really detailed reports with actual of information of how a dealership should improve their positioning there um a lot of it is just like provide better services and help make sure your experiences online are consistent with what happens in the store your reviews and things like that um but we then started kind of doing taking the same kind of approach and structure and doing it across everywhere in the country just understand like okay like are there big trends and who's showing up where and why um so there's a lot of interesting things we can find there and certainly dealers love to look at that and i think it is a way for us to um start to understand more what's going on in the industry so we the reason we do it and we kind of publish it for for free for anyone to come in and read this is because we are trying to understand just like that article you stumbled upon that i posted like what's going on right like and we are just intellectually very interested in how this is evolving and this just gives us a great way to break it down understand it and make sure we are kind of in this with our dealers to to understand and kind of be ahead of the game awesome thanks so uh anything else anything else cool about uh car genius you wanted us to mention or or anything that we missed like in this topic in general if there's anything like you know great thoughts about you know your wild prediction about the future or or advice for people who are car shopping i don't know yeah no i mean i mean i think use large language models if you're car shopping it you know you have like year or now your uncle who is an expert in car shopping who can help you along the way use it and kind of make sure you know it's giving you the right answer but like get in deep with it right like make sure it interviews you too like if it gives a quick answer you can kind of push around and say hey like dig in deeper on this stuff you know for for dealers you know and anybody on the web I think there's some interesting things that start to happen around you know what is the general user experience of the web become when consumers get used to you know work working with AI instead of working with, you know, a traditional website, right? You go to a website and it's like homepage, click around buttons, you have a search result, you kind of get what you want, and everyone has the same experience. And one of the interesting things that is related to what we're seeing with ChatGPT with these interview packs and things like that is it's starting to do dynamic UI. So every single answer and user experience is custom to what you're asking it to do so it's building html elements on the fly and inserting them into their chat and i think like that starts to get me thinking as a consumer as a user about you know the future of the web and you know certainly i'll be using ChatGPT for more stuff but when i use the web i'm going to be interested to see the web changing to give me results that are based on what i'm looking for not forcing me into your conversion funnel right so like that's another area we're spending a good been a time of thinking about and how that impacts car dealers but i think it has it impacts the entire internet and um you know everything you do online awesome um that's very cool thank you again so much for your time i really appreciate this is uh and i think it's insightful and then hopefully we'll we'll have you on again in the future to see where where the the dealership world is headed i'd love to join you again and it's really fun to chat as well thank you so much Great, thanks Cory. So there you have it, another fascinating conversation with an interesting guest, um not one i really thought i was going to be diving into but it just i don't know it came up the joys of your LinkedIn feed i guess uh it's not all uh AI written promotions about you know how i was pleased to speak at some conference last week or something so um i i think that was interesting you know uh Cory certainly isn't going as far as accusing anyone but he's just pointing out some facts about you know what you should keep in mind when you're looking at uh this and and maybe you know to a certain extent you know follow the money right where the money goes probably gives you a good idea of what's what's happening um and and what's being presented to you so uh and i think we will see some pretty amazing developments in uh car shopping through LLMs in the near future uh thanks for listening watching as always uh i always say please you know give us a uh you know review uh Spotify Apple Podcasts uh or you know YouTube like subscribe share it uh put this on LinkedIn as well as i mentioned them so uh thanks uh take care we'll talk soon