Is Andy Burnham all over the place on Brexit? | The News Agents

It's interesting that the Conservatives have landed on this phrase for the Prime Minister that he is gaffe-prone. He opens his mouth and he puts his foot in it. Ever since the Blair years, where there was a grid, there was a line to take, you went to an interview, you went to a studio, you took that line, you never veered from it, and now we're saying, well, let's have an open debate about it. I mean, yeah, I mean, free movement. But is he trying to warm us all up to something that is absolutely massive, that is definitely re-entry on some level? The News Agents podcast is brought to you by HSBC UK, opening up a world of opportunity. This is a global production. We need to be honest about how life has changed in the 10 years since Brexit. The economy is weaker. Our control of immigration is weaker. And we need to have an honest discussion about that and take steps back to get a more functional relationship again. It is almost dizzying how willing Andy Burnham seems to talk about our relationship with Europe, the possibility of rejoining a single market with free movement or a customs union, or even rejoining the European Union itself. It is a far cry from the Starmer years. Can he take his party with him on this? Can he take the country with him on this? And is his mind decided, or is he just thinking out loud? Welcome to The News Agents. It's John. It's Maitlis. And for years and years, we have had politics where you have always felt that ministers who come to a studio like this one to be interviewed, they have a line to take, and they dare not move five degrees either side of that line for fear that the Downing Street machine will come down on them like a ton of hot bricks. And with Andy Burnham now, it feels like we're entering into a new era of politics. Either he is massively gaffe prone and can't be disciplined about what he says, but he is the prime minister and he's a pretty damn good communicator and he seems to know what he wants to say. Or he is, as you said in the introduction, Emily, thinking out loud of having a debate, of having a discussion, of having a political argument where things aren't signed, sealed and settled. But he's open to this discussion. He wants a free and open debate on this subject that presumably he thinks will lead to Britain having a much closer relationship with the EU. Yeah, it's interesting that the Conservatives have landed on this phrase for the prime minister that he is gaffe prone, that he puts his he opens his mouth and he puts his foot in it. and they will point to the times where he started an argument seemingly sort of by mistake almost that people have leapt on and said well you can't you can't just wonder about things if you're the prime minister are you changing the rules on drinking at football games are you changing what we're allowed to do are you is this now going to become part of your policy or your manifesto and then the prime minister has sort of walked himself back i think on this issue something quite interesting is happening and it started at the Labour Party conference where he put the question of EU membership back on the table and his I guess sort of caveat would be I'm not telling you what to think I'm just saying we ought to talk about it we ought to be grown up about it and we ought to then put it back to the nation. I can't help feeling that it must really indicate where his mind is, because he's certainly not saying, oh, let's restart a conversation about the death penalty. Let's restart a conversation about the legalisation of heroin, right? So there is clearly something in the policy choices that he's kind of putting forward that suggests, yes, this is probably his direction of travel. And presumably, there will be a lot around him in the Labour cabinet who agree with him. I'm not sure Shabana Mahmood, the Home Secretary, is one of those. What you heard was Burnham spell out very clearly that the economy is weaker and that immigration is harder to combat without freedom of movement. Shabana Mahmood was speaking yesterday in the Commons and she kind of had to bat that away when it came to her from a Lib Dem saying, is that where the party is now? Honestly, what absolute piffle from the honourable gentleman. He will know that the Prime Minister has been discussing an open debate. That is not the same a settled policy as he is well aware and as for uh as for uh my freedom of movement the prime minister has also observed that there were very significant issues with freedom of movement when we were within the EU an honest debate means actually being honest about all of the aspects of that debate and not cherry picking as a Liberal Democrat so often want to do you see what's so funny is that it's really hard to get your head around the idea that in government there might be an honest debate taking place that it's not settled that it is open it's just as i say you know ever since the Blair years where there was a grid there was a line to take you went to an interview you went to a studio you took that line you never veered from it and now we're saying well let's have an open debate about it i mean yeah i mean free movement well there are complicated issues there are arguments on both sides but what did you hear from her did you hear somebody who was actually slightly irritated that she's having to confront this whole question of freedom of movement when she's trying to do her darnedest to say we've just got the borders under control now yeah i thought there was i thought there was a bit of that i thought she was kind of more oh come on liberal democrat mp stop being so juvenile you're trying to create but it's not a juvenile question right i mean what you're basically asking now is are you taking your whole cabinet with you on this and are you taking your party with you and we've heard in the last 24 hours since those remarks came out in the times at the weekend we've heard from you know red wall labor mps who say oh please don't put me through this don't put me through this for my constituents and i guess what we what we want to know now is whether there is enough of a drive from the prime minister to say actually you might find they've changed their mind or actually you're fine not to vote this through or i i don't know i mean it it feels like he's not going to do anything this side of an election right but is he trying to warm us all up to something that is absolutely massive that is definitely re-entry on some level so there's various scenarios that i think one is as you you know he's thinking out loud and there's got no prescriptive policy direction timetable set another theory is that you've got the eu summit next month really important about all sorts of issues but you suddenly seem like you're very very pro-European and you're really wanting to kind of reshape the relationship with the rest of Europe after the torture of Brexit and that you'll get a better deal because you're sounding so lovely in the run-up to that summit and it may be there's a softening up exercise going on or i do think he's got a sense of direction i don't think you would just shoot the breeze yeah shall we shan't we what do you think should we go to the pub tonight or should we go out for a meal i don't know what do you fancy i think that Andy Burnham must have a clear sense that he wants Britain much closer to Europe and yet maybe not quite clear in his own mind about whether that's a customs union whether it's a single market whether it's rejoining i mean there is the kind of maximalist argument isn't it that you go too far yeah almost you start talking about freedom of movement because then everyone has to draw in their breath and if you're going off to meet European counterparts you say well maybe you know let's see what you're offering and you push something that is kind of at the very end of the you know trajectory to see where where they will meet you look when you and i spent years in the BBC what would always happen in the BBC is they'd say there are massive cuts coming and you're going to lose tons off your budget and then when the cuts came and they weren't quite as bad as that everyone's rather than thinking oh ---- that's bloody awful look at how bad the cuts were you think oh god not as bad as we thought and I think I wonder whether you get the customs union in under the guise of what it could have been way worse yeah I mean I don't know where he's you know how easy it will be to make this argument to the country and I think it's particularly complicated you know you talk about the red wall MPs are saying for God's sake don't open this conversation well the Labour candidate who stood in the Makerfield by-election was also saying we're not going to reopen that subject that was only a few months ago and that candidate was Andy Burnham and that puts him in a slightly difficult position in relation to what he said then and I don't think he's got a very good answer to it I just want to make one other comparison that I I'm sure he'll hate but I do note with some admiration that there is a bit of Andy Burnham that is flooding the zone a la Donald Trump you know you talk about some of the random things that he's talk about and he's appearing on Gogglebox and he's doing the TV studios and he's appearing here and he's appearing there and lots of interviews and he's putting out ideas about drinking at football grounds or whatever it happens to be he is a headline making machine at the moment I mean you know compared to the Starmer days where you thought oh God you know come say something interesting for God's sake please tell us a story Andy Burnham is telling us lots of stories at once and so far if you just look at the polling evidence of that And rather like Donald Trump, the public kind of quite like the engagement that is taking place from him. And I think that, I mean, look, you know, it may all go very sour very quickly. You don't know. But at the moment, his approval ratings seem high. Labour's poll position is improving. It seems to be working. Yeah. I mean, the headline says, oh, let's start having a debate about freedom of movement. And everyone jumps up. And then obviously we go back and we go, what does that mean? And he has to clarify, you know, Downing Street keeps putting out these sort of addendums. It wouldn't be without a referendum. He doesn't agree in breaking the red lines of the previous Labour manifesto. So immediately you're talking about something presumably that has to happen after an election, which probably means at least, I'm going to guess, at least a year away from even putting it in a sort of in a framework. And by then, obviously, the EU that we might be looking at could be completely different. I mean, it is not inconceivable that after the French elections and the Spanish elections and the German elections, to name but three, you could be looking at an EU that is, I mean, entirely dominated by populist right-wingers, right? By the AfD, by the Rassemblement National, you know, by Vox, by a whole group of governments that we definitely don't see eye to eye with. We're not talking about Macron's France and we're not talking about Merz's Germany. We're talking about people that we might think, Jesus, we have nothing in common there. Maybe maybe the whole freedom of movement ends under that kind of EU. I suppose the other scenario to that is that you're absolutely right. Those right wing populist governments come in and you've got Giorgia Meloni in Italy as well. that actually the accession talks might be rather easier than if it was the old Franco-German machine who wanted to make it more difficult for Britain and wanted to exact more of a price. And you never know that, you know, Britain was always seen as the sort of free market liberal kind of more Northern European than the sort of, you know, the olive oil countries as they used to be disparagingly referred to. Yeah, exactly. And therefore, you know, the kind of, that you might get Marine Le Pen saying, oh, come on in. We're all rugged individualists now, so everyone can do their own thing. So I don't know that it kind of, but I think that it's just carrying the country with it. And I think that, you know, Farage is probably thinking this is a fabulous argument that I want to have because this will work well. And this was, you know, this is what made his political name. And it will get him off all the other bloody problems he's got at the moment. If he could be talking about Brexit and the great, you know, betrayal that is taking place with a Labour government talking about rejoining yeah I mean he called Starmer's speech at conference a gift, a gift to Reform because he was putting EU membership back on the table and I think you're right it gives Farage this sort of rebirth don't forget I'm the man who brought you Brexit and when we were stuck saddled with a Brexit that clearly wasn't working he was kind of nowhere to be seen but now there's talk about well you know we might go back we might get rid of it they're suddenly jumping up and down on a pogo stick exactly and i think that you know and look reform are pretty well organized we know they're incredibly well funded now because of all the crypto mates who've been pouring in millions of pounds into reform coffers and that they have got a machine now that can fight those red wall seats and they will be kind of licking their lips and thinking okay bring it on bring it on andy if you want to if you're tough enough i don't know where this will go i do think though that it just you know there is something refreshing and honest about okay well let's let's talk about these difficult issues that i know are uncomfortable and i know maybe may cost us but i'm prepared to have the argument and i think that shows a certain boldness and kind of strength that we haven't seen yeah i mean we are talking to you now on the eve of a budget and one of the reasons that frankly we're talking about the state of European relations is because we think the budget will not be actually that defining as a day, as a piece of legislation It is part of a sort of Burnham process, part of a Healey process And we are going to be speaking in a moment to a man whose very job was right at the heart of Budget Day Chief Secretary to the Treasury and later as Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister himself Darren Jones, and find out what he thinks John Healey has to do tomorrow. 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Lending is subject to status. Eligibility criteria and T's and C's apply. Well, we're joined now by Darren Jones, former Chief Secretary to the Treasury and Chief Secretary to the then Prime Minister, Keir Starmer. So you know all about the budget process. We've just been talking about free movement and what Andy Burnham has been saying in a series of interviews that has been given. Now, do you think this is someone who is just chatting and kind of kicking around ideas or someone who has a firm sense of direction of where he wants to get to? Well, my interpretation of it is it's that that's his view and he's kind of entitled to it. Right. But he's clear that you don't want to rush the prime minister. so it's kind of not just that it's his view i mean is this now government policy that we should have free movement well i think i think number 10 said yesterday that it wasn't government policy because of course you have to get a collective agreement and right round around government on all these things that will depend on the terms and those sorts of things but i think what andy burnham is doing is just providing some political leadership on something that he cares about and thinks is important and he's been very honest that this is not something you can just agree you know today and it's sorted next week it's going to be an important national debate the way he sees it let me just try so are you surprised that this has been reopened i mean he stood in Makerfield and said you know we're not going to reopen the whole europe debate uh was i surprised i mean maybe a bit something was quite a bold thing to say i mean i i think i agree with him so i don't particularly mind so much um and it's a different style of leadership i mean often prime ministers tend to be very careful about what they're saying they just read the lines they've been given based on what's been agreed behind the closed door at Number 10 when you say it was rather bold i mean that sounds like a quote from Yes Minister that's very bold prime minister like you must be bloody joking no no no i don't mean that i mean as bold as in it's a different style of of leadership uh you wouldn't expect you know normally for prime ministers to um kind of start a debate in that way but he has i think it's a debate we should have and the fact we're talking about it is probably what he wants us to do and that's you know a good thing does it make you wonder if there was more room for that courage that you're talking about with Keir Starmer I mean Andy Burnham is opening the discussion the sky hasn't fallen in there will be a debate does it make you think god we we probably could have done that or we could have opened that we could have gone there well possibly i mean the Labour manifesto was clear that we were not going to rejoin the single market or the customs union so Keir Starmer was very clear that that was the mandate on which he was elected uh and which the government was elected and so he would have he would have said well look until such time as there's another election and I guess another mandate I'm going to operate within those red lines Andy Burnham's come in as a new prime minister mid-term um he will no doubt recognize the commitments that are made in the manifesto but that's why I think he's trying to start a longer term conversation which presumably wouldn't be resolved until after the next election when there's a mandate for it but for him to start the the national debate on that um given that he clearly wants to put some options to the public whenever the election comes i think why not crack on i mean it was said to me by a senior tory that the simplest thing that Keir Starmer could have done when he came in was say yeah we are going to join the customs union you know and thereby you start Britain on the process for what we hope would be renewed growth and frankly you set a trap for the Tories because they would have to decide whether they wanted to move away from that undo it you know pull back upset the business community with something that essentially could start us on this you know path to the right place to be presumably well i think there's two things in there i mean firstly i mean there would be nothing that would stop a prime minister from taking a different position towards in the manifesto but i'm not sure that's the best idea when the public don't trust our political institutions and politicians very much i think you can make a promise in a manifesto to be fair darren i mean it didn't end up with the public trusting Keir Starmer's government anyway no no but i think if we took your suggestion of just saying i know we said something got elected but i'm going to do the complete opposite yeah but you did that with fuel and all the rest of it i'm just i'm just saying that you know if you take people with you if there had been a leadership that said we will do this because we genuinely believe it will put the country in a better place that's leadership right yeah but i still stick with my position that you've got to you've got you have to take the public with you as opposed to just saying one thing and then immediately doing another but the second part of your question which i think is important is you know rejoining the institutions of the EU is not a magic bullet or economic growth issues and there are some risks to it i'm so i'm a pro-european so i'm kind of supportive of the direction of travel but i'd worry for example about the impact of EU regulation on technology which i think is in the wrong place and what that means for our economy when we know that technology and AI for example has been the main driver of economic growth. Do you think we should remain completely separate to EU regulation on AI? I would like us to take a different approach to what the EU is doing yes but this is why when you get into the detail like what are you signing up to what are you not signing up to what what happens at that point in time it becomes quite complicated and that's why this is not something that can get resolved in a in a week just because we're talking about it it's going to take some time to work through. Look you know it's been a pretty fundamental change since the summer when Keir Starmer left office and Andy Burnham has taken over are you kind of are you surprised at how well he's doing or maybe I'm phrased that differently that it does seem that Andy Burnham is rather better at politics and communication than Keir Starmer was would you agree with that he's definitely a better communicator yeah no question and he's you know he's done a good job in terms of connecting with the public both in terms of his personal ratings but also um the ratings for my my party um and obviously in the sport of politics that's a that's a good thing and you know because you know immediately after you you sort of had a bit of a snipe at um you know the the money for digital IDs and you said that money's already been that money's you know there's not there yeah and it was like you were kind of cross were you cross uh i was cross about the government announcement saying that it was funding a tax cut with money that i you didn't exist not least because i had spoken privately to Andy Burnham and said you know economic credibility really really matters the Labour Party always has to overcompensate on that because a lot of the public will think um that you know we like to do the right thing and if that means you're not as credible on the economy maybe Labour takes a different approach to the mean Tories it's the traditional kind of setup in the minds of many members of the public and so we have to go the extra mile to to show and to prove that we can be trusted with the economy so when that was the first day announcement i thought that was wrong um and so i held the government to account in the way that i did and they've not done it since and that's the right outcome we are on the eve of a big budget we think it's going to be a big budget um you've been there pretty much um where would your head be now what needs to be in to make this memorable or do you think it's just going to be a kind of fairly flatline piece of yeah legislation that just you know takes us into the next bit well obviously i don't know what's in it but from conversations i've had and what's been reported i do think this will be a steady as she goes budget but i think that's probably the right decision because um andy burnham's made it clear he wants to publish this 10-year plan before christmas which is his kind of strategic vision for the country so it'd be very odd for a budget in advance of a strategy to make lots of detailed decisions in that way. So I really think a lot of the action will be in 2027 when we do the next spending round and what the government's actually going to be spending its money on. But this budget does have important things to do. We know the cost of living is still a pressure for many families. We know energy bills, food bills are going to be going up because of what's happened in the Middle East with Iran. Is there something that you wish you'd done that you would want John Healy to do now? I mean, there's lots of things I would love to do. I mean, I think the task for John, though, is that he has to basically balance the books because of the impact of Iran, what that's meant for inflation, the cost of government borrowing, whilst trying to find the means to give people a little bit of breathing space when we know that, as I say, cost of living pressures are going to be challenging over the winter coming into 2027. and then where at all possible trying to support the underlying dynamism in the economy to stimulate as much growth as you can given that tax and debt is already very high to try and help you get into the strongest position next year let's talk about you know this is all floated so we don't know what's going to be in tomorrow but um tax on bankers now there's a very strong debate going on between those in hospitality who say we've been absolutely thwacked we can't keep going Business rates are ridiculous, we're being priced out of town and the bankers who we all bailed out we all remember from 2007 2008 making 29 percent profit now which surely is right for taxation but as soon as you step into that one maybe you're killing growth, i don't think it's killing growth and and if i had to bet on it i'd expect the chancellor probably will do some changes to the tax the banks have to pay in the budget tomorrow um it won't be a huge amount in the scale of what he needs to do, it might be two billion or so over the spending period um you know which would go towards for example extending the warm homes discount for the lowest income households for energy bills so i suspect if he does something like that that would be politically popular and popular in the country i don't think it will kill growth but i think it will have some effects on the financial services sector they'll want to pass through the cost of that in some way um to customers i suspect um but look a chancellor is always in a very very difficult position so i have enormous empathy for any chancellor really of any party because you're always trying to trade off these very difficult factors on debt and tax and spending and defense and public services and all of these types of things so there's never a perfect budget and it doesn't sound like you you have this idea for you know this will be the budget that does x there is no you don't have a headline saying we've got to see that in it well i i don't know what the headline will be tomorrow but my sense is it's probably more would you change the the rules the the borrowing rules would you change the no not really because i mean you could have none and it'd still be the same problem the national debt's very high and it's very expensive um uh so i wouldn't do anything like that particularly i mean i really do think it'll be a bridging budget that takes us into the 10-year plan and then the spending round in 2027 emily just asked you the question which you know are there things you wish you'd done can i just slightly reverse the question and say are things you wish you hadn't done uh me personally on the government the government yeah well i mean like the winter fuel payment is the obvious example right which i think um for many voters um ended up feeling a bit like a betrayal really i think of what they thought they voted for in 24 and i think it was one of those policy mistakes in the end um that for many voters meant that Keir and Rachel's public polling had gotten bad and didn't really recover um so that's an obvious example what about the farmers inheritance tax i mean all those changes that led to you know people down on whitehall saying you don't understand rural britain i mean i mean again with the chancellor you know you've no tax is really popular with everyone so you have to pick some over another but was that the right one uh well i think given our manifesto commitments on income tax national insurance and vat the inheritance tax regime um that we inherited was very generous to the farming community now i think some change has been made to kind of ease the transition but i think the fact that you didn't have to pay inheritance tax on farming land in the same way that you would for other types of land showed that there was an area where some change could have been implemented so you say those mistakes i just think um you know look you came in promising economic growth and then you which we got to some extent yeah highest in the g7 okay but the but the tax you know the moves on minimum wages some people say that's making it more difficult for employers to take people on uh the rises in employee national employer national insurance uh again kind of discouraging employment adding more costs to business i mean if you i think if you ask business was is this a business friendly government that we've got at the moment i'm not sure they'd say yes well look i mean you can look at individual measures or you can look at it in the round and it's important when you do that to compare it's quite a big measure isn't it putting 2p on employers national insurance i'm not saying it's not but all i'm challenging is your question a bit because the uk's had either the first or second highest growth in the g7 for every quarter since labour came into power investment has been the highest because and Keir Starmer prime minister has just said it's not good enough we can do better yeah of course we want more but it's still the best in the seven wealthiest countries in the world that's what i'm saying i mean investment-led growth the highest in the g7 every quarter since we came in in 2024 labour market and statistics the level of unemployment actually when you compare it to similar countries around the world is actually pretty good honestly down there if you if you had a voter here instead of us you wouldn't get away with saying oh we've got the highest you know growth in the G7 I mean most people don't feel that we're in a good place right now most people really hurt right so i'm not sure what your stats are trying to prove except that there is a sort of maybe sense of complacency that it's okay no because there's a difference between growth and cost of living so the point of my stats is to but we're not frankly growing enough are we we are not growing and i've already conceded to that we should grow more but we're still growing the fastest in the seven wealthiest nations in the world from where we came from but my point is the statistics are basically highlighting what i think is sometimes a narrative in this country where we talk ourselves down i'm not saying we don't have challenges but actually we've got lots of great things going for us and we should celebrate those as well but you are right that growth is different to cost of living inflation is still too high and that's why people at home experience that in their energy bills in their food bills and global shocks are making that harder not easier and so you're right that you've got to be you've got to clearly distinguish between economic growth investment businesses exporting investing more maybe employing people wages improving but recognize that the cost of living is still a pressure for people which is what Andy Burnham has recognized when he talks about the need to give people some breathing space as we work through it what's interesting is just to go back to where we started which is this whole question of freedom of movement and you've said you know you're quite pro-european you wouldn't be against but the customs union obviously is complicated because of all the um arguments over kind of re-entering regulation again is if that's where we're going to land which is well we can't really go back into the EU because we don't really want to pick up you know their rules and we don't really want to tie our hands again but we are we're basically saying what no no to the market no to the where where are you sitting on that then no to the customs union no to the single market where where do you end up then look i think it depends what the offer is on the table i mean we've got an eu summit coming up later this year you mean the offer from the eu yeah i mean they have to agree right we can't just decide what we want to have ourselves so we're gonna have to know but you can go in and say you know this feels like i mean from a position of leadership let's say if you're the prime minister this feels like something that would be good for this country and i will make the case for it yeah i mean i personally agree that being part of a of a european union that itself needs to modernize like the eu's got lots of challenges too but i think working as an economic block within europe in a world where you're dealing with the us and china and big economies uh makes sense for us strategically um but as i say getting from a to b will require quite a lot of negotiation and detailed work the state of the parties how do you explain how Labour is doing so much better than it was you'd have to ask a pollster I think well no just your analysis no you don't darren, the pollster can tell us what the polls are saying we're asking you to explain what's happening inside your own party well in my party or with the public with the public both I mean I suppose I knock on doors in my constituency that's probably the best reference point I have you know I think people um people felt like they wanted a bit of a change um as i say you know the the labour government the 24 to 26 had got to the point really where the public weren't really willing to give it a second chance or to listen anymore so they wanted something to change and Andy Burnham's been very clear that he represents that change and people are liking what he's saying now that's great because we're in the second half of a parliament i don't know when the election is going to be uh there's lots of bets as to whether christmas well that was going to be my next question i mean i don't know but we're in the second half of the parliament irrespective of when it is what happened okay so you know let's say that the polling roughly kind of poll of polls is Labour at something like 28 percent Tories 22 Reform 21 and if Labour goes above 30 would you say okay would you be in favor you know you've got a fight you'd be fighting an election in your constituency would you be in favor of Andy Burnham calling an early election i mean i wouldn't no just because not because of my own constituency i think you know god willing with the continued support of my constituents i should be fine but we don't have labour landslide majorities very often in our history Keir Starmer secured that for us i wouldn't offer to give it back sooner than we might need to and you think that would be the end, the end result? Well we're not going to win any more seats so we'd probably lose some rather than not lose any of my colleagues so you basically wait till the very end would you? I could see a case where you're getting into '28 and it's kind of you know the fourth year and you're kind of pushing where you might want to go then, but I certainly wouldn't want to do anything this Christmas or May next year. You've given praise to Andy Burnham for the kind of communication skills and the energy and the sense that there has been change. What are the warnings? What are the things that you think that this government needs to be more concerned about and maybe is not focusing on sufficiently? Well look the big challenge is going to be 2027 because as I say you've got the Iran war induced inflation and energy bills coming through over the winter we'd expect food prices to get higher. We've had a very difficult summer with the heat difficult winter with the extreme rain that will push inflation, I think, to go through 2027 longer than we might like and then the spending review next year as I know as a former chief secretary to the Treasury is when the rubber hits the road. That's when you've got to make the big trade-offs defence fee health money for owning public utilities or council houses. But on defence, do you think that Burnham should have gone faster, quicker? I mean, you know, obviously this is John Healey who resigned from your government and brought down Keir Starmer. Yeah. I mean, look, what Andy and John are doing on defence spending is what Keir and Rachel were going to do. And I think it's sensible that you have to stage it through a spending process because you can't just take £10 billion a year out of another department's budget on an off year, I mean it's too big a number so you have to resolve that through a proper budget and spending round which is what will happen next year where does that leave John Healey's position i mean don't you go on honestly when you you know you saw his resignation letter which laid it all out and now he's chancellor and saying yeah well we can't do anything different from what Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer would do well look that's for that's for John to account for i'm asking you what you think uh what do i think i mean i don't know i mean look i remember but i To spell it out, Darren, that probably put you out of a job, right? That collapsed the Starmer government. You were at Keir Starmer's side. It was certainly the last nail in the coffin, yeah. I mean, I was chairing a COBRA meeting at the time when, actually on a defence issue, when a member of my private office came in and gave me a little piece of paper that just said DEFSEC resigned. And I just knew at that moment that was it. So, yeah, so you knew immediately the power of John Healey's resignation. and what was said in that letter and yet they seem to be adopting the same policies that Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves had yeah because that was the only practical answer to the question but then so let me come back to the question what does that make you feel about John Healey I don't really feel anything about it to be honest it just is what it is I mean there's no point in sweating over the past I mean the fact is we have to increase spending in defence and we've got to increase it more quickly than you would want to in a time of peace and that's a difficult trade-off with other priorities that the public have, whether it's on health or teaching or whatever it might be. Look, I'm kind of in the position now where what's happened's happened. I mean, I'm on the record as saying I'd rather it didn't happen in the way it had, but I obviously want my team to do well. And I also know how difficult the job is of being a prime minister and a chancellor. So, you know, I'm not going to criticise them from the sidelines. I'm going to do what I can to be supportive and to be helpful. And of course, to hold the government to account as a backbencher if I feel like they're doing something drastically wrong. you've said this budget has to meet the moment that was your phrase at the weekend do you think it will well i mean i hope so i hope so i mean meet the moment suggests that we are in quite a perilous moment and this has to be big enough to make people feel that it has satisfied their concerns right that's what meet the moment means yeah yeah it does and andy burnham in his interview in the times this weekend also said that his main observation having been in government for you know a very long time and then coming back was how fragile things are and that's why it has to meet the moment now when i say meet the moment i don't just mean in kind of throwing cash around because we don't really have it to throw around but it has to meet the moment in the kind of strategic direction it takes the country in knowing that we can't complete that tomorrow on wednesday but it is the start followed by the 10-year plan the spending review in 2027 and then probably an election at some point after that where we've got important work to be getting on with but we're going to be going back to the electorate and saying look a lot done and a lot more left to do you worked right next to Keir Starmer for so long do you speak to him now are you still in touch yeah I've been in touch with him a bit were you surprised that he resigned when he did um well I didn't know from step down as an MP I mean yeah yeah I didn't know he was going to resign on that day um but having spoken to him not long before he did I wasn't entirely surprised that he wasn't going to last until the next does he seem to you a happier man yeah go on well I mean look he i think he um he he relished his time being prime minister because he came into public service for a reason um he was obviously sad about how it how it ended but one of my observations is that unless you've actually worked in number 10 you don't really have any idea what it's like even as a secretary of state in another department you don't really get it the burden particularly on the prime minister um is enormous on any prime minister and they wear it you know physically mentally in terms of the energy they have every day it's a really really tough job and I say that for a prime minister of any political party and so once you've stopped being prime minister irrespective of whether you're happy with how that ended or not I just think it's normal for people to feel lighter and feel a little bit younger and to you know even my own observations of having the last couple of months where I've been able to sleep eight hours a night and go back to the gym and spend more time with my children and eat properly you know all of these things um matter and my main observation is we probably ought to give our political leaders a bit of a break sometime and and encourage them to think about their own well-being as well as getting on with a very difficult job that they have are you surprised that how quickly the waters have just covered over Keir Starmer and it's like you know Keir who into some extent in the sense that he's just disappeared from view um i don't know what he's doing i don't know what how he's busying his days i mean it's so strange i can't think of any other political figure that has just disappeared like that having been prime minister certainly not Brown certainly not Blair certainly not Boris Johnson you know any of them well the two things i'd say about that is that firstly i think you know a lot of the action that the labour government took in 24 25 25 26 i think we will look back on and see was important work you know we've talked about some of the mistakes but as i say on economic stability economic growth on the performance of the health service and i international leadership whether it's in terms of NATO or what's happening in Ukraine on our clean energy mission you know there's lots of things there that's really important good work that I'm certainly very proud of of being a part of having delivered over those two two years but in terms of Keir's position now look I mean that was a personal decision for him he said that he was leaving with good grace he was not going to be writing a running commentary on Andy Burnham's leadership as I just said he knows how difficult that job is he wants the Labour Party to succeed and so he's taken the decision to draw a line under it and get on with the next stage of his life and you know good for him do you think he'd be back in government me yeah well that's up for a prime minister to decide would you like to be are you missing it look i'm having a to be honest i i have with reflection been very grateful for being given the breather that i've been given i feel much healthier and happier actually in many ways um but of course you come into politics not just to be a politician but to make a difference and you can do that the most when you're in these top jobs in government so of course i'd like to come back at some point um i'm not in a particular rush i'm not clamoring for any job that becomes available at any time i'd like to do um something that i care about um if i get given the chance to do so and of course i want there to be a second term labour government so whether i'm on the back benches or elsewhere i'll do whatever i can to help secure that, Darren Jones, thank you very much indeed pleasure is this not the best president in our lifetime. Cindy Hyde-Smith, who is standing as a senatorial candidate in Mississippi, having to ask the question. Is this not the best president in our lifetime? the fact that Donald Trump is in Mississippi, which is as red a Republican state as it is possible to be, tells you something that things are not going quite as well as Donald Trump would like. He's also got involved in Alaska and you can hear more about that on The News Agents USA it is quite the tale we'll be back tomorrow with the budget we'll see you then bye bye bye for now The News Agents podcast is brought to you by HSBC UK opening up a world of opportunity this has been a global production