'Is MAGA a safe space for sex offenders?' | James O'Brien

Don't get me wrong, I do find it absolutely fascinating. And it ties in slightly with some of the conversations we've been having this week about the role that religion plays in the United States of America and how Christianity in particular has been co-opted or hijacked by people who are about as unchristian as it's possible to imagine. The most obvious, of course, being Donald Trump, the self-confessed sex offender. And of course the Tate brothers got a welcome in the United States of America after allegations against them. ...had been made, and I think charges brought. I mean, this is really interesting and really important. As finally the sort of crown of Donald Trump is slipping, all of the cheerleaders who looked the other way when his depravity was on full display are kind of briefly freewheeling, briefly struggling to know where they're going to go next. They won't struggle for long. They always bounce back from, in this case, apologism for the worst imaginable behavior. But right now I am absolutely fascinated by the confidence with which Russell Brand approached MAGA. He had been cancelled a few years ago. I mean, here's another mad thing. They whine and whine and whine about cancel culture. Russell Brand gets cancelled as these allegations gathered and then goes to the place that whines about cancel culture where he gets an incredibly warm welcome. I mean, it is, you can see, absolutely fascinating. And horrifying, Donald Trump has created an international safe space for sex offenders. There are pictures from the last few years of Russell Brand, post-allegations, of Russell Brand smoking cigars with one of Donald Trump's idiot sons. They're all Fredos, aren't they? They're all Fredos. Yes, Photographs of him with Robert Kennedy. Photographs of him right in the heart of... I Donald Trump's universe, Donald Trump's innermost circle, Elon Musk bigging up Russell Brand after the allegations. suppose. I mean, listen, there'll be an awful lot of effort put into pretending that Ed Miliband is responsible for this, because, of course, back in 2015, Ed Miliband did an interview with Russell Brand in the hope of co-opting some of his popularity and turning it into political capital. I don't know whether it worked or not. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon has been hanging out with Russell Brand recently. You know, the furthest of the far right. And this is the bit that fascinates me. The Protect Our Women, Protect Our Girls crew are actually building the biggest international safe space for sex offenders that the world has ever seen. And we were told that this was going to happen by their reaction to the Epstein files. I mean, it's all there. It's all in plain sight. It's all absolutely crystal clear. And this case, I know it's not the most important element of it. And I know you're probably expecting me to rail against the fools and rape apologists writing things like downfall of the swaggering sex predator fawned over by the left. He has been literally hanging out at Mar-a-Lago since the second term of Donald Trump began. But the Daily Mail tries to turn it into something about the left. It is incredible. But the reason why it's important is not because of my usual hobby horses about right-wing media and client journalists. The reason why it's important is because it creates an environment in which the abuse of women, and quite possibly children, if we're bringing the Epstein files into the conversation, it creates an environment. In which the abuse of women is encouraged, first normalized and then excused, and therefore encouraged, you know? And there are some days where you sort of think, this is beyond giving your head a wobble. I don't really get Reddit. I'm sorry. I probably should try harder to get up to speed with some of the newer non-legacy platforms. But there's a wonderful chat room on Reddit which looks at what you might call benign conspiracy theories. So an apple a day keeps the doctor away and they'll undertake a proper exploration of the science behind the claim that an apple a day keeps the doctor away. And four years ago, someone put up that Russell Brand is moving towards MAGA so that when these allegations against him come out... He will be able to claim that it is a stitch-up. He'll be able to claim that it's a witch-hunt. And listen, you know, who knows what other predictions that person has made or what other conspiracy theories that person has endorsed. But that is exactly what happened. Incredible journalism by the Sunday Times, by Rosamund Irwin, and I think Charlotte Case at the Times, the Sunday Times, and Channel 4. Incredible journalism. But it was in 2023 that that dam broke, if you like. And before that, people could see Brand moving towards MAGA. And I suppose if we'd been paying more attention at the time, we would have wondered why. We would have wondered why. And now we know. And this is the incredible thing that really came into focus this week as we discussed the relationship between Trump's depravity and the so-called Christian right in America. He has created a safe space for sex offenders. The mad thing is that he's done what they were trying to accuse Hillary Clinton of doing in the run-up to the election that she lost. You know, whether you're Andrew Tate or Russell Brand, you gravitate towards the universe. At the centre of which sits Donald Trump, a man who boasts about sexually offending women. I found myself thinking yesterday about E. Jean Carroll quite a lot, the woman he sued for defamation after she accused him of rape, and the court, of course, found in her favour. The defamation case was dismissed and the judge provided a technical account of why rape in the conventional sense hadn't been committed, but in the technical or legal sense it had. It's grim reading, but it is, of course, something that Donald Trump has been desperate to keep out of conversation by suing people who referred to it, even though those are matters of fact. matters of history. You get frightened of lawfare so you don't talk about things that are true. It's how fascists shut down criticism or dissent. I didn't mean to cause quite such amusement by admitting that I wasn't really across Reddit. I'm a busy guy, alright? I follow a lot of other things as well. There's stuff I read that you don't read. It's not a competition. So I am fascinated by that and I will want to talk about that at some point in the future. But But we shouldn't be talking about it today. I've been really worrying lately. I started to write my newsletter yesterday, and it's going to be a sort of an attendant to the show. Sometimes I'll be talking to you in the newsletter about things that are sort of going on behind the scenes or in my head. I know I share most of my thoughts with you live on the radio, but I've been really worrying lately about whether or not when you respond to attempts to set the agenda by bad people, by Trump apologists, by... Boris Johnson fans, by the people responsible for almost all of the bad things that have happened to us over the last 10 years, if you spend too much time responding to them, do you inflate them? Is it Streisand effect? So if we now picked over the coverage that the Daily Mail provides today in its desperate attempt to pretend that an absolute darling of Donald Trump's America, Donald Trump being the president that Daily Mail colonists queue up to. Um, to suck up to Russell Brand, the darling of that crowd in America and pretending that this is somehow a story about how, uh, left-wing people were taken in by him or were cozying up to him when these allegations were not known, comparing that to how the right wing cozied up to him, hero worshipped him, fated him, um, after the allegations were known. So I was getting ready to talk to you about that. I was getting ready to talk to you about that and I'm flicking through the newspaper, getting ready to go in on that and be all clever, clever about it and point out how hypocritical it is and how if you were the kind of person that used the phrase Trump derangement syndrome, then you haven't really got much choice this morning than to pretend this is a story about the left rather than the fact that your hero has created a safe space for sex offenders. Or at least they hoped it would be a safe space. Moving towards MAGA exactly as the allegations mounted, precisely so that he could claim some sort of witch hunt subsequently. And the number of people who joined in who have called it a witch hunt, some of them, you know, quite prominent, quite well known, albeit chiefly on social media. That's a big deal these days, calling it a witch hunt. Because he said some daft things about COVID, they've somehow persuaded several women to come forward with allegations of rape. I mean, it is, if you know me at all, you will know that it is something I find absolutely fascinating. So I'm getting ready to talk to you about that today. It's not a conversation I'm looking forward to particularly, but I would enjoy it, I think, more than the conversation I then realised that we should be having instead. And that's male privilege kicking in. Oh, here's a bloke on the radio. Here's a white, middle-aged, middle-class bloke on the radio with a big lefty platform getting ready to talk about how extraordinary it is that the people who claim to be protecting our women and girls are literally building a safe space for sex offenders from right across the world. But that's male privilege, because who's not part of that story? It's a man talking about men, and this is a story about women, right? All these men talking about men. Here's a man talking about a man, you know? Here's a picture of me with Russell Brand 10, 15 years ago. I don't know when. That's proof that somehow, oh, guilty. Man, men talking about men and not talking about women. So I'm flicking through the papers. And I get to page 38 of the mail, and credit where credit is due, I haven't seen it anywhere else. I get to page 38 of this newspaper, and I read that rape cases now take a record 386 days to work through the courts. And now, I am not suggesting that that should be on the front page, or rather... I'm not suggesting that there's something remiss about the fact that it hasn't been put there. It wouldn't make you buy the paper. A big picture of Russell Brand is on the front of almost all the papers today. In fact, probably all of them, except the Eye, actually, which has a marginally more important story about the Godfather of AI warning humanity that it's all hurtling out of control. Well, let's take a day off from that and focus instead on this. And that is a much more... I mean, crikey, I feel ridiculous even putting them on a metric. of importance. What is more important? The fact that we're arguing over whether Russell Brand was a creature of the left or a creature of the right. It's not an argument, by the way. It's obvious. When he was a rapist or a suspected rapist, he was right wing. When he wasn't, he was left wing. And there it is. Pretty straightforward. It's not an opinion. It's just counting. But here's the story about... How long it takes, and I don't know whether you're already aware of how unlikely you are, even if you come forward with an allegation, let alone if the authorities decide to pursue that allegation, how unlikely you are to see the sort of conviction that we saw in Southwark Crown Court yesterday. Good night. It is extraordinary how little light has shone into this issue. And we came so close this morning to making it worse, not better. We came so close this morning not to shining light into the bigger issue, but to joining in with the culture wars, joining in with their lying. Let's refute those lies, to-ing and fro-ing, men talking about men, when it is a story, well, you don't need me to tell you what it's a story about. The average waiting time from charge to completion is up. The main reason I think we can see now that Rishi Sunak unexpectedly called that general election was because the justice system was absolutely falling apart, most obviously through the fact that there were no more places for prisoners. But of course, contingent upon that or contributing to that is the backlog of cases that haven't even got to court yet. 189 days is the average for all types of crime. That you would have to wait from charge to completion. It's up a little since before the last general election, but still a little lower than the post-COVID explosion that sort of petered out towards the end of 2021. But I wondered yesterday about the word courage. I wondered about the word courage because I'm a bloke. And I wrote something, I think it was just for a post on Blue Sky, about the courage. One of my favourite accounts on there made the point that being found not guilty doesn't mean you're innocent. So we don't have a not proven in England. You have one in Scotland. And I really liked that post. It was an excellent thread about the mechanics of the law rather than the headline-friendly simplicity that we're sometimes exposed to. And I wanted to write about how much courage it takes to come forward with accusations like this, particularly, I imagine, against a famous man. And I worried that that would be tin-eared. I worried that it would sound a bit patronizing or even patriarchal, you know, a man calling women, oh, you're so brave. But it is, isn't it? It is incredibly brave. It is incredibly courageous. It is incredibly hard. And that is why I think that's what we should talk about today. I think that's what we should talk about today. Bye-bye. How hard is it? 03456060 03456060973, can you, through your experiences, give me... An insight into what the women in this case would have been through in the context of the court case, never mind the crimes alleged and in some cases convicted. What is it like in this country at this point in history to come forward with an allegation like these, to come forward with allegations like these? I can't believe that it's a 368 day wait, but of course I can because I'm aware of the broader story. I'm aware of the bigger issues. I'm aware of the crisis that the whole system is in, largely as a consequence of 14 years of Tory rule, but also, of course, as a consequence of COVID. It was a mess before COVID. It's an important point to acknowledge. But we only really talk about this when somebody like Russell Brand is in the dock, don't we? And we can only really talk about it when somebody like Russell Brand has been convicted, Otherwise, it's couched in conversation about... allegation and accusation and some people can't resist the urge to try to score points about it against their perceived political enemies. There is no point scoring in pointing out that Donald Trump has created a safe space for sex offenders. That's a national, international crisis. It's a hideous situation that has unfolded but it's still not as important today as the question of what those women went through. What did they go through? Jane, Jane, what would you like to say? Hi James, thanks for having me on. You're very welcome. I just wanted to reiterate, you asked specifically what these women would have been going through. I've been in the exact situation, male celebrity, obviously I will not name, and I was one of a handful of women. Um, that experienced this at the hands of this, this person. Um, and when, when this man, this, any man in that environment is, is, it's, it's surrounded by enablers, I think that's one of the most. One of the awful things about this is that in many, many cases, you know, it is an open secret. Don't get in the car with that guy. And that's the end of the intervention. I mean, it really should be the beginning, shouldn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we did in the workplace where it had happened to myself and another a number of women, I mean, we did approach management and they just... ...told this man to stay out of our office, and then he was moved quietly elsewhere. And we knew it was going on. We knew it was happening to each other. We were all in our 20s, and we were frightened. This man had power and celebrity and money. And you immediately, as a woman, the first thought that enters your head is, I will not be believed. No one is going to believe us. And you think to yourself, you know, I have to just stop this from happening. But where do you go? People won't believe it. So in my case and in other, it took 10 years. For me and others to come forward, I was older. Yeah. What happened? Can I ask about the process? Were you approached or did you make it? No. So again, it was the open secret. It was well known that this person, his behavior was appalling and crossed the line many, many times. And when he was first arrested, it was like dominoes. Okay. A lot of people say, oh, you know, women see that the man's been arrested and then they come forward. But actually, when I saw it on the television that day, the relief, first of all, the respect I had for the first person to come forward who actually had a, if you like, had a higher platform. You think, OK, well, maybe now I'll be believed. So I then contacted the team myself, as then did a trickle of women. There were many, many of us that did not know each other, but had exactly the same story. Um, you know, the stories were, they were... A modus operandi, as it were. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and it is, you know, who's going to believe you? Thank And I want to know, I would love to know, you know, where does that fear came from? For me, I was in my sort of late 20s and was the older of the group of women this was happening to, and I felt so much guilt. But at that age, you know, I couldn't stand up for myself or them, you. but it is frightening, you know, when you see this man surrounded by an entourage and feted as, you know, this amazing idol, etc. Thank Obviously, you get accused of going after money, which is utterly ridiculous. There was nothing about money, no money. You know, when I, myself and the other women were going through this process, nobody asked about money. No, it wasn't about that. It was about, for me, having finally the strength you. to sit in court, which I did, and tell my story with my hand on the Bible and just get it out there. and the relief I felt. Um, from doing that, um, was, was immense. Um, so you would encourage others to do the same, then your experiences, although you didn't get the full result that you wanted. I didn't, I would, it is obviously I had a fantastic support network. I knew that. You know, all I wanted was for, you know, there was, my conviction wasn't successful, my charge wasn't successful, but some others were. And so just for me to get my story out there, okay, it didn't go for me as planned, it did for others, of which I was really grateful. This is so interesting to me. What would you say to the... Women whose cases didn't get a guilty verdict yesterday. I mean, you probably know more about what they're currently going through than anybody else alive. It is, it's frustrating. I remember standing, watching Sky News when the verdicts were read out in my situation. And it is... Mixed feelings. You are happy that there have been convictions because, you know, this person is now seen as this terrible person. Frustration that you're... The situation was, I don't want to say not believed, because it's not that simple having also done jury duty for something. It's beyond reasonable doubt. It's a very different verdict. Not guilty is a very different verdict to guilty. It is. So it was mixed feelings. This person lost everything. That's, you know, I was okay with that and made peace with it. But it is the constant, the constant, why won't I won't be believed? And we've got to address that. And just very quickly, I wanted to address as well, so many women, female posts I've seen talking about why these women didn't come forward. I think that's the worst thing when the misogyny is coming from women. What would you like to say? Hi, James. First of all, thank you so much for taking. This take on it, to ask us how we feel. I don't want to go too much into my personal situation for obvious reasons. But today, so last night I was looking at the news and I was on social media and I couldn't bring myself to like any post about this situation with Russell Brand. The truth is, I accept what's happened and I know it's very true, but I actually don't want anybody to be a rapist. Um, so I don't want to, I want the outcome for every single case to be not guilty. And, and whatever reason. Of course, right. Um, but it's... You want to live in a world where rape doesn't happen. Exactly, exactly. And then I want to be perfectly acceptable explanations for why the accusations were made in the first place. But my feed was full of men laughing, making rapey, rapey jokes about this situation. And it just suddenly occurred to me and I thought, are any of them checking in with us, with us girls? We're about to be hit by a tsunami of accusations about another celebrity. We all know who that is. Be very careful. Don't go any further now. Don't worry, I won't. And there's also another name. You know, there's another name that's going around. And it's just, I'm so quiet and upset today because it's occurred to me, we're not just being brave in the witness box. We're just being brave every single day of our lives. And we're not only having to fight the male attitudes about this. It's sometimes the female ones as well. I can be quite open and I'm very much about against violence, male violence against women and girls on my socials and on my friends, my daily conversations. And. We're always, always having to defend protecting ourselves. Why are we always doing that? And I know this is, I don't know, I said it better to your researcher, I think. I'm just suddenly really, really upset by this one. Tell me why. Because this is another question I should have asked. I just want to clarify, other people can. I just want to really hear how women deal with this story, let alone how similar experiences. It's really easy. It's really easy when you see a reform councillor up against 12 councillors rate. It's really easy to just shrug your shoulders and say, oh, what do we expect? Oh, well. People are saying that about Russell Brand, like, you know, look at him, look at the way he dressed, look at the way he behaved. I really liked him. I really, really liked him. I met him. I thought he was fine. And that's no excuse. But I didn't want it to be true. And I think it's a... I think that, you know, we're labelled as man-haters and stuff, but I don't actually want anybody to be this person. And I'm so tired of feeling like this about another revelation, another man. Well, this is the point I think I'm taking from you. And it's actually, I mean, not exactly a positive, but it's a reminder. ...that any man can be a rapist. Yeah. They don't dress like the child catcher out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. They don't come over on small boats. My Russell Brand did dress like that. That's the fact. He did on occasion. But I think there is a temptation to... Pretend almost that, you know, it's a bit like fascism coming in carpet slippers, not goose stepping down the main road. There's a temptation to think. I remember I was thinking yesterday, actually, I hope this isn't inappropriate, because I liked Russell Brand as well. You know, I met him a couple of times, always in professional contexts. And I And when the Daily Mail went after him in 2015 because he was endorsing Ed Miliband, I kind of remember mocking some of the attempts that they had to malign him. They didn't get close to the kind of stuff that ended up in court. And that's, as you say, that's a perfectly normal reaction to someone whose charm and charisma rendered him for a while one of the biggest stars in the world. But I was thinking about the teacher at my prep school who was the most... a serious paedophile that I encountered in my childhood. And he was the coolest teacher in the common room. Do you know what? There's part of this, and I'm glad you haven't cut me off yet, because a point that I really wanted to make as well is I was awake in the night thinking about him. Is it beyond sex? Because we're talking about a guy that was able to say no to heroin to protect himself. But he couldn't say no. He couldn't say no to stop himself from hurting a woman or women. You know, he had the power to ignore heroin, but he couldn't. I wonder whether heroin was hurting him and that was a very different mental proposition from the idea of him hurting someone else. I don't know. Neither of us are going to be able to get closure on questions like that, but it's a really good point about self-control and willpower and also, I think, about the difference between promiscuity and sex offending, which is something that I think his defence tried to blur. Because he is very promiscuous and only a relatively small number of women have come forward. He cannot, therefore, be a rapist. Thank you, Sarah. I mean, men talking about men. That's just the thing that we're not doing. So whatever you want to say, really, I would like to hear.