DELHI AQI DATA UNDER FIRE: Stations Go Offline As Toxic Diwali Pollution Grips The Capital?

Good evening and a very warm welcome. You're watching the Urban Debate on Mirror now. I'm Pratibha Chandran. Thank you for joining us this evening. And it's a discussion that we see every year, but the same questions. Are there no long-term solutions for the air crisis that we see in the Delhi NCR region? Who is responsible for this? There's a lot of political blame game that takes place. But does Diwali get unfairly targeted? That's what we are going to be discussing today, because yet again, what we're seeing is that Delhi is battling a pollution crisis and we are looking at air quality readings when the national capital needs it the most. The monitoring network appears to have developed a massive blind spot. Times Now data investigation has in fact found significant gaps in pollution readings across the city's monitoring stations on Diwali night. How widespread was the blackout? When did it peak? And what did Delhi's air quality data fail to capture? Our investigation, in fact, tracks these missing readings, examines the hourly data and flags the sharp variation in the pollution levels after reporting resumed. Let's get you the numbers that we have. And the findings that we did after looking at multiple stations, monitoring stations across Delhi. So there were no hourly readings across as many as 52 monitoring stations. So imagine that to even find out what the situation is, to look at what the data is, the monitoring stations were not even working. When questions are raised on political will, is this what points to it? Key stations went offline on Diwali night. And only seven of 59 stations actually reported proper data. All 59 stations were fully functional at 8 p.m. On the 8th of November, it's only after that that it stopped functioning. Now, data blackout was witnessed from 9 p.m. On the 8th of November to 6 a.m. on the 9th of November, raising multiple questions on what happened. Was it deliberately turned off? So data stopped after the pollution levels approached as much as 1,000. A Times Now ground check at Delhi's ITO monitoring station also shows that PM 2.5 and PM 10 readings are not visible on the display. Instead, you could only see the carbon dioxide levels. ITO is not alone. There are at least 11 monitoring stations across Delhi as well, from Nehru Nagar to Burari crossing that have been affected. Take a look at this report. Any air quality monitoring stations across the National Capital have gone blank or have stopped sending data. We are reporting from one of the monitoring stations in the National Capital that is at ITO. Now this is the Central Pollution Control Board monitoring stations which monitors the air quality index in the National Capital. Now on the screen which shows the data of PM2.5 and PM10 which is the main dangerous particles, those details are not being seen. You can see that there is a glitch on the screen and now the details that is visible is of SO2 and CO. Now about 11 stations had data gaps on Friday. Some stations completely stopped working for 11 hours. Even during the whole week before Diwali, many stations had blackouts. Total missing readings were quite high across the city. Now, the Commission for the Air Quality Management in the National Capital Region and adjoining areas imposed stage 3 emergency measures in the Delhi NCR under the Greater Response Action Plan to prevent further deterioration in the air quality index. Now, from Nehru Nagar to Burari crossing, at least 11 monitoring stations were affected in all. Now, including Vasundhara Enclave and Nangaloi, which are among the monitoring stations, which were inaugurated last month. Now, the Times Now analysis also reveals when the biggest gaps occurred. Over 85% of the missing data was recorded between 9 p.m. on the 8th and 7 a.m. the next morning. The contrast with the previous night is also quite stark. As we mentioned, many of them went blank completely. On pre-Diwali night, no more than eight stations lacked readings in any given hour. But on Diwali night, that number shot up to 44. And the recovery was slower as well. By 7 a.m. after the pre-Diwali night, only two stations had missing readings. After Diwali night, the number stood at 21. The Times Now analysis tracks how the blackout unfolded hour by hour. And 8 p.m. on Diwali, all 59 monitoring stations were reporting data. But within an hour, by 9 p.m., five stations had gaps. The number then climbed to 20 by 10 p.m., 32 by 11 p.m., 38 by midnight. The worst point came at 1 a.m., when as many as 44 stations lost their PM10 feed. 36 of them lost PM2.5 data. 36 readings did not show any pollutant. The numbers remained high throughout the night with 21 stations still reporting gaps at 6 am today. Let's also tell you another significant finding. Only seven of Delhi's 59 stations maintained an uninterrupted data stream throughout Diwali night and the following morning. At the ITO monitoring station, the display screen shows a clear glitch. The readings for PM 2.5 and PM 10, the two key pollutants, were not visible. Let's get you a report on what the situation was like. Quality index in Delhi reaching to severe category in many parts of Delhi. There are reports coming in that... At various pollution monitoring centers in Delhi, the data is not being displayed or there is certain discrepancy when it comes to showing the data of air quality index. Right now, we are reporting from IMD. Here also, we have a pollution monitoring center and there is a screen outside the IMD which shows the real-time data of the AQI of PM2.5, PM10 particles. But look at these shocking visuals. The screen over here is not working. Now, I spoke to people inside. They did not come on the camera, but they have said. It's been a few days that this particular screen is not working. They have also spoken to the higher authorities, but as of now, the screen is not working. Now, while there are reports coming in... That there is a discrepancy in the data that is being displayed by various pollution monitoring centers. This raises a serious question that why exactly is this screen is not working, whether the pollution control center inside is working or not. So clearly what we see is that the main building, IMD, which monitors everything regarding the weather, the screen outside that is not working. So political blame game continues. The Aam Aadmi Party accused the BJP government of manipulating the AQI data, calling it large-scale data fraud. The Congress, meanwhile, has questioned the gap between private and official pollution readings, accusing the BJP of not following the Supreme Court guidelines. The BJP has also hit back, blaming 25 years of the Congress and Aam Aadmi Party rule for Delhi's pollution crisis, saying the people of the capital Delhi government is clearly manipulating data. They are doing large-scale data fraud of AQI and pollution data and I'll tell you how they are doing it and we have shown it with evidence. In their last tenure of almost two years they have added 20 new AQI monitoring stations and these stations have been added at rural areas of Delhi. which are comparatively greener areas where you have low AQI values so Delhi in general has high AQI. They are continuously sprinkling water on the top of the monitoring device itself. Now we have complained against this to CAQM, CPCB, we have given evidence our complaint is in writing we have not received any reply from CAQM or CPCB. So I think it's a kind of a connivance, it's a kind of a conspiracy, and it has blessings of the central government. There were clear guidelines issued by the Honourable Supreme Court on crackers, that those guidelines were not followed. Perhaps the government is incapable of implementing those guidelines. Option two, government may be capable, but is unwilling. And therefore, it is clearly indulging in... brazen contempt of court. Either the measuring devices are incapable of measuring this level of pollution or there was some manipulation going on to cover their tracks. This government is playing with the lives, not just health, with the lives of people in Delhi. Supreme Court is directing you, advising you not to burst crackers, but the whole night I could only hear the sound of crackers. You are suffering. Your children are suffering. Your old people are suffering. People who are asthmatic are reaching hospitals. Forget it. It's worse than hazardous. So I'm really pained by this indiscipline. And I feel it's time the left-wing governor of Delhi, who is the next Indian Foreign Service officer, should step in and make sure that the people of Delhi, The citizens of Delhi. Look, this pollution is not a matter of the present. 15 years ago, it was the government of Congress, Shreela Dixit, who was the Chief Minister. After that, it was the government of the Aam Aadmi Party for 10 years. Arvind Kejriwal was the Chief Minister. By law, today's pollution is their duty. Because when solutions were to be taken to deal with pollution, . Neither the government of the Congress nor the government of the Amadni Party have raised the issue. Because of this, today Delhi has to endure the pollution. A big reason for the air quality to dip in the Delhi NCR region is because of the stubble burning in Punjab. And there has been a sharp spike in the stubble burning incidents on Diwali. Sources say a record... 1,152 farm fires were reported on a single day. It takes the season's total to 4,459 cases. Five districts account for more than half of these incidents. And here is what the data actually shows you, that on Diwali Day, over a thousand cases were recorded, taking the total to 4,459. And there are multiple places, five districts in particular, where the cases are seen significantly high. Delhi's pollution crisis has triggered a political face-off between BJP and the Aam Aadmi Party because today in a press briefing, Delhi Minister Kapil Mishra has alleged a conspiracy behind the sudden spike in stubble burning incidents. He claimed that the fires were deliberately set to target Delhi and that Punjab's farmers and even the festival of Diwali were being targeted in this conspiracy. Listen in to his charge. What are you doing today? They are targeting the date and setting it on fire. They are intentionally planning to set it on fire on 8th, 9th, 10th. Today, the power is also being used by the farmers of Punjab. Their condition is also bad and they don't want to set it on fire. On 7th, only 100 places have been set on fire. On the 6th, only 100 places were burnt. On the 8th, how? Suddenly, 1200 places were burnt. If you look at the AQI of Punjab's cities, Bhatinda, Sangroor, this AQI has come to us. Today's 5 o'clock AQI of Malhotra, 1238 AQI in Punjab. I am telling you about today's morning in Malhotra. After this, if we talk about Abohar's 1307, AQI in Punjab, after this we will talk about Sangroor, from where the Chief Minister himself is present, 1651 AQI in Sangroor, in Punjab, this morning's AQI. What is happening in Punjab? Who is setting the farmers' fields on fire and running away? Why is this fire being set? And why is it that the people of Kejriwal who are sitting in Delhi and the people who have gone from Delhi to Punjab, they had started making this atmosphere about Diwali two days ago? Now, the Aam Aadmi Party government has also hit back, accusing the BJP of deliberately targeting the state while ignoring stubble-burning incidents in UP and Haryana. The finance minister has called the BJP's allegations childish, accusing it of trying to defame Punjab. Look, the people of BJP are tired of lying because they have been in the rule of the country for a long time and no such matter has come to light. I want to ask them that from which state does the border of Haryana look like? Does it look like the state of the border of UP? Because the state of BJP... The government is in UP, Haryana, they only see Punjab because the farmers of Punjab had a huge fight against the BJP, that's why they target Punjab, the farmers of Punjab, the BJP is the one who is planning to defame Punjab. Meanwhile, the Congress has also questioned the BJP government's handling of the pollution, arguing that stubble burning did not suddenly begin overnight and that the air quality deterioration cannot be explained by merely Punjab's farmers alone. Let's open this up and discuss what the situation is like in the national capital. What is the reason for it? Accountability. Can the government in Delhi merely blame Punjab and get away with it. Do we actually have long term solutions or not? Joining us on the broadcast this evening, Anil Gupta, BJP spokesperson. We have Rajat Sethi, political analyst, Vaibhav Shivastav, Aam Aadmi Party spokesperson and Dilip Cherian, image guru, as well as Onika Mehrotra, Congress spokesperson on the broadcast with us. Good evening and thank you so much for joining us. You know, it's a debate that we've had multiple times and we've spoken about accountability. So I want to begin with Mr. Anil Gupta. Because the BJP did promise change and now the government comes out to say that we are doing our best but the conspiracy is from Punjab. But when you voted to power, Anilji, it was expected that the BJP government will have some solutions. What happened? Yeah, good afternoon to you and all the viewers. See, first I will tell you what we did in one and a half years. I just saw your story, you were talking about the data fudging. When the Aam Aadmi Party government was there in Delhi, the air quality monitoring station was 39. Now, air quality monitoring stations are 59. Delhi has an area of 1485 square kilometers. At an interval of 5 kilometres, we have an air quality monitoring station. Even if one or two air quality monitoring stations function, we can have a reading of AQI in Delhi. You talked about some missing data. There is no missing data. You know, suddenly when some spike is there, Some machine stops working, but other monitoring stations are working. So actual reading, nobody, because these stations are maintained by scientists. These stations are maintained by the scientists of CPCB and DPCC. They cannot do fudging. And even the average reading, you know, even if some stations, Delhi has the highest number of monitoring stations in the country, 59. If you go to other, if you go to Chandigarh, if you go to Punjab, you will hardly find one monitoring station in one district. So there is no question of data fudging. Now I tell you what we did, you know, now we are the largest fleet of electric vehicle vehicles in the country, we have a fleet of 5500, we made the first integrated control and command center for air quality monitoring in Delhi, which is being maintained by DPCC. We are constructing the roads wall-to-wall, so that dust mitigation is there. We have reduced the garbage. You have taken a lot of measures. Okay, you're saying that, no doubt. But, you know, on your claim that the data was not missing, 85% of the data and all of it came on Diwali night, from 9pm to 7am exactly. Multiple monitoring stations were switched off or they were not working. Our own ground report shows the same. But that apart, we can see the air quality dipping. Now, you're saying that measures have been taken, but we heard just a few hours ago the Delhi minister going on to say that the conspiracy is being hatched from Punjab. But it's your government in Delhi. Is it really fair to blame Punjab for this? Let me explain. You know, out of eight pollutants which are part of the air quality index, these six are normally within control. I mean, you hardly find the SOx Carbon monoxide reading more than 50, it is always less than 50. NOx Mainly two pollutants are there, PM10 and PM2.5. you PM10 is generally from the dust. PM2.5, what is the source? Stubble burning, the emission from the vehicles. very So suddenly why spark is there? We know, I mean, suddenly why on 8th and 7th night, much. there is a sudden increase in the farm fire in Punjab? Everybody knows that the winds flow from the Himalayas to the Delhi side and you see the Delhi geography. Normally in the winter season when moisture is there, this atmosphere gets polluted because of the accumulation of this. Just a minute, let me just reply. Why there is a sudden spike? That was just to blame the Diwali or just to spoil the Diwali of Delhi, just blaming and you know, Delhi has the best infrastructure, but it will take further. But why Punjab is not cooperating? Why they have sudden? And one more thing, the center government has given roughly 250 crores, 80 crores in the National Clean Air Programme, 160 crores under the Finance Act to control These were similar answers that the Aam Aadmi Party were giving until a few years ago when it was the BJP that said, give us power and we are going to change a lot. But Rajat Sethi, is it true that Punjab, the conspiracy is coming from there and the farm fires? Because what the Delhi minister claimed is that on the previous day, there were hardly a few incidents that were reported. But on the eve of Diwali... There were over a thousand incidents suddenly reported. So was it really a conspiracy coming in from Punjab? And is that stubble burning the real issue in Delhi NCR, whereas Diwali and the firecrackers get falsely blamed? So, Pratibha, I think this has been a classic case of tragedy of commons and the problem with handling public commons problem is that you can keep on blaming each other with absolutely not proposing a single solution. And I understand that the solution exists. It is incredibly difficult. It's not going to be easy. The solutions will border somewhere around dictatorial approaches which the government will have to take. They'll have to call spade a spade and not worry about the politics of the day. But unfortunately, the kind of people that rule us in all shades, Aam Aadmi Party, BJP Congress, are bordering buffoonery on this topic. It's been going on. These shameless people, politicians of our country, don't imagine that their own children and grandchildren have to breathe the same air. But the problem is that it is an easy way out. They will blame Diwali. They will blame, some of them will blame the Punjab farmers. Some will blame the vehicles. And the problem has to be handled in the entirety of it. Of course, the Punjab farmers are to be blamed. No doubt about it. Of course, Diwali crackers, in spite of the crackdown, were still burst. We saw the spikes that happened. We also saw that the... That the AQI that was there around 2 a.m. in the night, which was upwards of 1500 plus across Delhi, then then also came down to somewhere around 300. But that is not breathable air anyway. Look at what kind of impression do the foreign delegates sitting in embassies have of our country? What hints will they be giving to their investors? Will capital come into our country? It won't. It has a huge economic cost. It has a huge health epidemic level cost. But every politician, all that you will hear across the next 30 days is only buck passing. There is Punjab election which is coming. Nobody would want to tame it. There is a UP election which is coming. Somebody would want to raise it and keep on passing on the buck with zero solutions whatsoever. I believe Supreme Court of India, I don't know how much power do they have. They've tried to ban it. They should try banning Parali burning at all costs. The district magistrates should be held accountable. Similarly, in Delhi, If you think that this spike that has happened is to do with the AQI, the district magistrates and the SDMs have to be made accountable for any firecracking that happens on the Delhi night. It's simple. It has to be enforced. Otherwise, we'll keep on sitting. Ten years from now, our hair would have, we would have lost our hair. We would have had lung infections and still debating and discussing this topic. The solutions are not going to come from our politicians. These goddamn politicians of our country have absolutely no creative ideas. Nothing at all. They will come blabber on national television and go back smelling the same air that they are so used to doing. And, you know, your anger is completely justified because we have this exact discussion every single year and it's always some short term solutions that are spoken of, not really long term solutions. And unfortunately, the truth is that after a few days, it is forgotten completely until it returns the next year. Mr. Dilip Chaudhary, is there where the problem comes in? That, you know, unlike a lot of issues that become a day-to-day problem for the people and become an election issue as well, here, unfortunately, the air quality is not an election issue, first. And secondly, the look at the states around and the fact that, say, in just a few months from now, you have elections in Punjab. So no party really wants to take any extreme measure that can have a backlash. Even today, as the BJP was holding the press briefing, It's said that even against the Punjab farmers, there is a conspiracy. So in looking at all these sensitivities, in looking at the electoral map of the country, is that the reason why the Delhi NCR region continues to suffer? And what is the solution for this? Pratibha, the first solution is understanding the numbers. And I think the fact that data fudging has been proven by your report, forget the reports of... Hundreds and thousands of concerned citizens who have used their own AQI meters to put up the values. So I think data fudging is at the core of this whole problem. If you don't know how big and how bad the problem is, you're constantly going to start defending, you know, oh, at Diwali we must burn crackers. Under the convention and under the original... religious practice. It was lighting of lamps. It had nothing to do with burning crackers. Burning is of Parali and burning is of all these other issues which are going to be covered up under a smog of water and trying to again fudge the data. One problem is to actually get the meters working and somebody needs to be held responsible for this large-scale failure of meters and the second is the allegation which is actually visible to people who go there to see that there is excessive water fountains and water sprays around these monitoring stations. If you don't know what the data is, Remember that those who are concerned who sit outside of India, which Rajat referred to, have the data because it is not rocket science to figure out what the AQI in your city is. Today, I have two colleagues who had to be nebulized because of the situation of the air that is breathing. My granddaughter is unwell because of the air that she is breathing. So we are really talking of crisis level stuff here. Claiming that one state's fire burning and remember Diwali is meant to be a harvest festival of sorts. So at harvest time is when the Parali burning happens. So all the states that generate this have to be taken into account and there's no point saying one state is at fault whereas the other states are innocent. That kind of blame shifting is. I completely agree with you that it is an air emergency. We are breathing this air. And unfortunately, in this political blame game, it's the people who suffer. And the first solution for any problem is actually acknowledging what the problem is. But when data is fudged or when you have AQI meters that have been put in. Other parts of Delhi, which don't generally see pollution, then we're not even looking at a solution because we're looking at ways to just deflect the blame. Vaibhav Srivastava, when the BJP is asked as well, every single time the response from the BJP is very clear. One, the previous governments did not do enough. And that's the reason why Delhi NCR is suffering. And secondly, a large part of the blame is on the Aam Aadmi Party government in Punjab. Parali burning, yes, but this time the BJP says. There's also a conspiracy. It's not just the farmers. There seems to be a conspiracy in burning the Parali just before Diwali so that the BJP government in Delhi can be blamed. Yeah. So Pratibha, there is a famous quote that we know, the more we sweat in practice, the less we bleed in law. I think there is a, we everybody know that there is a, there are some specific months which this, the Delhi is suffering and choking its lungs and these are the various factors. I'll point as per the DPCC and DSS, Decision Support System of Ministry of Earth Sciences, what are the, for the contribution, contributing factor in terms of pollution of Delhi. 22% industrial emission, waste, garbage burning 26%, vehicular emission 39%, parali. The crop residue burning, that is 12%. These are the, and various other sources. So these are the specific numbers as per DSS and DPCC numbers. So even though we consider, yes, we consider like there is a sufficient parali burning, which must be reduced. And we are contributing like as per their data, CQM data, we have reduced over 93% from 79,810 to roughly around 5,000 because this year it is still cumulative. So my point is. We have to narrow this down and we have to collectively sit and choke out the plan. But Pratibha, where I am missing two important persons in this overall menace and this hazardous thing which is happening right now. One is the LG of Delhi and second is PM Narendra Modi. I think last time we have seen him appealing to the citizens of our country that don't buy gold because there is a war going on in the US and Iran. Last time he was not buying gold, he was changing the notes in demonetization. But he doesn't seem to fit the morality to appeal to the Indians to have a kind of collective and cumulative and responsible approach in terms of the pollution as far as pollution is concerned. Across all northern India. It's not only the Delhi facing the pollution. But what is the appeal you want the Prime Minister to do? To not burst firecrackers? Or what is the appeal that you think that the Prime Minister should give? The Supreme Court has given its ruling in terms of green crackers, and there is a specific timeline that has been set. We are ourselves a daylight, so we know till 3 a.m. in the morning, open bursting of the fire is going on. And mark my words, Pratibha, if your reporters are on ground, there was no any green crackers. There was no because authorities don't even have the proper kind of training to differentiate between the normal crackers and the green crackers and this is because last time also we have seen this time also we have seen this is kind of approach and this is the kind of fudging of data. Last time, Pratibha, this is the sprinklers. You all know our MLAs have gone to the site of AQI monitoring station of the ITI Jaha Girpuri where water sprinklers are just above the antenna. And this time, you have seen like Akshardham, after 11 a.m., monitoring is shut down. NSUT, 10 a.m., monitoring is shut down. JNU, Dwaraka, Pratibha, 11 a.m., 10 a.m., 7 a.m., 8 a.m., 8 a.m. So the monitoring station keep on shutting down so that data doesn't come out. And last time also, Pratibha, we have seen, out of 39 monitoring stations, 30 monitoring stations have been built. Why this is kind of... But you know, you can't speak about data fudging, I'm sorry, but when it was the Aam Aadmi Party government in power as well, the satellite data very clearly showed that when the mapping was taking place, then the fire burning or the Parali burning had been stopped. So there was an attempt to fudge data, even when the Aam Aadmi Party government was in power. And, you know, in the air that we were breathing, we could feel the difference and yet there was not enough action being taken. It was the BJP government that had also approached the Supreme Court asking for a relaxation on the bursting of firecrackers. Now, BJP has made it clear you want to de-link Diwali firecrackers with the pollution in the national capital. But if that is your intent, should there not be enough measures that should be taken for the government to ensure that even after bursting firecrackers, The air quality is just fine and no one's complaining. See, we always favor the busting of green crackers. We submitted it in the Honorable Supreme Court. Supreme Court has allowed, though decision was late. And if you compare the AQI of yesterday night as well as compare with today morning, there is a drastic change. How much was that spike? Not more than 20-30 points. Today you see the, it is less than 400. The phenomena, the phenomena of bursting the crackers is just few hours. This is not the this year figure. This is not the this year figure. Last year also the same situation was there. So just blaming the crackers is not the solution. I said why there was a spike in the farm fires in Punjab this year on Diwali, more than 1100. Okay, but crackers were burst. I mean, you know, for the numbers that you're citing, Rajat, I'm not sure if, you know, we can really trust these numbers completely. While one may argue that yes, crackers are unfairly, disproportionately blamed for the pollution. Finally, it's the air that all of us are breathing. I agree. I think this is the sad part. This is what I've been pointing out. That we are only passing the buck to no end. We knew how cleverly the satellite data was also fudged. And today, all the parties, including the BJP, Congress and the Aam Aadmi Party, none of them want to blame the farmers who are burning it. As if they are, you know, a very sorry state is cut out for them. The poor farmers, what are they going to do with the Parali? It's just going to sit there. Otherwise, they have to go into... I mean, you can't just try creating a sorry picture out of there. As if there is no... Practical solutions available. If you don't have it there, you can't even think creatively, then leave the job. Quit. The district ministers should be fired. The chief minister should be fired. If they cannot control this, I mean, how long? You've had five years of governance. What have you done concretely? Today, the numbers, the daily high numbers on Parali burning is reaching back to where it was. The money spent, you give the money to these people, it will all be siphoned off by all these contractor politicians in our country. All politicians would want to take up the contracts and will do nothing. They will all pocket out money and this is why I don't think it is a function of money also. If you give away 10,000 crores through some kind of a fund and you hope that some of it will go into the farmers benefiting out of not burning the parali, it will never reach them. Therefore, my problem is I can't think that these people are capable of finding solution. You require a lean and you kind of an approach of absolute no nonsense and absolute crackdown on people who flout this rule, be it a political constituency or be it anybody else. But then it will be called dictatorial. There's that problem as well. I'll come to you just a moment, Weber. But before that, I want to bring in Sonika as well on. Where the solution lies in this, because initially what had been planned was for the centre, which is in a real position of power to ensure the discussions can take place with the officials of Delhi, Haryana, as well as Punjab to stick together and come up with a solution. But has it been reduced to just political blame game for a few days and then everybody goes back home happy thinking we blame the other person. Now things can continue as usual. Pratibha, I'll come to the solution definitely. But at the onset, let me tell you, your report itself spells out the malintention of the present government. Not only the present government, the last 13 years you have seen both AAP and BJP have plundered and devastated Delhi. They have put Delhi into darkness, be it in all parameters. Now when you look back, When Congress governed in power, Sheilaji, we did round-the-clock measurement. For example, we had Bhagirathi scheme, wherein we'd rope in the RWAs. Everybody contributed towards this. Then we'd rope in the school students. They were the torchbearers of it. Say no to plastics, say no to kerosene, plant more trees. Then we improved the public transport system. These were the specific measures we took, which was evidently clear, and we never had those kind of debates then. Now, every year, it is deteriorating. So my question to you here is, You know the fact, you say that you inherited this, but 25 years down the line, BJP and the party at the MCD under its belt. What were they doing? What was the garbage distribution done? What were the roads, the potholes, the construction? All that has contributed. Now, they keep saying that, you know, previous government, what is your role? You say you've increased the... System there where you can check the actual, but then it's not working. So the point here is that health was never a priority for these governments. It was always a kind of a But does the Congress party also provide some ammunition for the BJP? Just take today's example where Malik Arjun Kharge called Diwali Khushiyon ki Eid and Rashid Alvi was asked about it. He said, but at least during Eid we don't have pollution. We see this pollution only during Diwali. Like the Supreme Court also mentioned, you know, the more you try to bring in restrictions, the more there will be a rebellion against it. Action cannot be on only on those specific days. It has to be around the clock. You have to monitor the construction site. How many of them are covering it while doing the construction? How many of them use sprays while doing the construction work? Look at the roads. They are dug away. Their potholes are not even maintained. Every time there's construction, there's dust all over. So there's no coordination between the government. Here in Delhi, Pratibha, the centre, the Vidhan Sabha, the councillors, all of them same government, triple engine Sarkar. And still they see, they keep saying previous Sarkar, previous Sarkar. What is their contribution towards it? Why can't they come down sharply at it? If they're actually worried about it, show them, show us the examples. They've not been doing it. As I said, under Shri Rajesh's government, we had huge programs on plantations, say no to kerosene, plastic bags, and Bhagatari schemes, massive programs were done round the clock. But here, it's only night watch. The worst effect are the children, Pratibha. The moment it goes up... The schools are shut down, not only academically, but physically also children are damaged. How long can you keep them in house? You think they can stay in house? Doesn't the house get in the... No, that's true. Those with any health side effects, they get affected. Children, the elderly, they get affected, no doubt. On the issue of the air pollution being raised every single time during Diwali, has it had... An opposite effect, as the Supreme Court has itself acknowledged, the fact that when you bring in too many restrictions, when there are too many questions raised on firecrackers being burst during Diwali as being the sole reason for the pollution in Delhi NCR, that's when people also go against it. There are more and more people who are out on the streets bursting crackers when restrictions are put only for a certain hour. Firecrackers can be burst. Then people defy it. Does it become impossible to control? Unless we, of course, bring in some of the dictatorial moves, as Rajesh was pointing out. You know, Pratibha, the problem has got to do just as much with the politicians as it is to do with the bureaucrats, as it is to do with the courts. But we're leaving out, as you just mentioned, the reaction of the citizens. But I don't think, and honestly, having spoken to a cross-section of citizens across the city, I don't think anyone is burning crackers out of vengeance or to prove a point. I don't think that is the real issue. The real issue is that people want to actually save their lungs. They want to try and preserve air quality. But when they find that the neighbor is doing, Flouting the rule. Being either penalized or being restricted in any way, they say, why not me? The kid in the house will say, if they're burning crackers across the road, why aren't we burning crackers? The schools have done a terrific job. The schools have actually done the cutting-edge job of trying to convince children, and that has worked to an extent. What has gone against all of us is the clear... Joy of political blame shifting, but today what has been added on, for example, why is there no aerial survey this year? Last year we had aerial surveys of Parali, but this year there are none. Why has that not happened? Because you don't want to draw attention to the fact that the Parali is being burned as much in UP as it is in Punjab. So you want to avoid that and therefore you don't have any monitoring of. Fires. Convenient blame game. We're coming to a close on this discussion. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. And as always, you know, there are many questions that continue and we don't have answers. Long term solutions. What is it that the government has done? I want to very quickly take closing thoughts from Rajat on this on, you know, what next? Is it really going to be wound up in all the electoral equations around Delhi that we are going to be having these discussions multiple times with no solution? Or if the government really intends it, there is a long-term solution possible. In Amitabh Kant's words, this is the tax of democracy. We have too much of democracy and this is the problem. Everybody gets a voice here and political parties use that and commoditize that voice. Somebody will do a religious signaling out of it. Somebody will do a specific community of a profession, farming, whatever, to signal to them that we are with you. Therefore, I don't see a solution. From this country with the current leadership or at any level, any party, I don't see that happening. Maybe Supreme Court, they might limp into action or something like that. But the enforcement mechanism will remain the same, which is deeply corrupt. So no solutions that I can foresee. That's slightly cynical. Let's hope that's not the case. And let's hope that. There are some solutions, even if it means in a world where the governments come together or the Supreme Court takes note and ensure strict action. And thank you all, I guess, for joining us this evening.