なぜ日本人は着物を着ていたのか？｜田中千衣子

People who like to dress others must be doing jobs where they dress people yet everyone who is dressed in a kimono says it's uncomfortable There's a contradiction like not wanting to wear a kimono anymore yet Japan is a country that does craftsmanship extremely meticulously I was wondering if it's really possible for just a kimono to be that way Clothes were more like something to make oneself look better This zero-gravity kimono is like a protective charm making Japan look cool Hello I'm Masaki Kawashima the Musubi University navigator Do you often wear a kimono in your daily life At this time one of the traditional cultures that we want to preserve in Japan is the kimono There is a reality where the kimono has been declining as an industry and this time we would like to take up the kimono at Musubi University Regarding the kimono there are many things that we think we know but actually don't Actually I also had my hair done today but I'm currently visiting the Marikoji style in Kyoto I'd like to ask you various things about kimonos here but this is Ms Tomoko Tanaka who has this Mari Koji style actually this kimono It's advocating the idea of wearing kimono not just for special occasions but in daily life When you think about it originally kimono was Everyday clothing for the Japanese people you know But because such things are no longer being used the culture of the kimono itself is disappearing so I am very much looking forward to this discussion about the kimono I would like you to feel that the Japanese people have such a profound culture at the Neko Musubi University where you can learn more about Japan's traditional culture I would like to go and ask you about it Ms Chieko is known for regularly wearing a kimono but first may I ask you to give a brief self-introduction Yes my name is Tanaka Tomoko The way I dress is called zero-gravity dressing It's because the person wearing it feels lighter We are conveying that it's possible to live comfortably inside a house Yes this " zero-gravity dressing" has a really unique name Did you come up with the name yourself Yes I gave it a name but one day when I had it worn by staff members in the office they said it felt good What does it mean to say that a kimono is comfortable When I had different people try it on the overwhelming majority said it felt light It is light and I'm really grateful to be wearing it today That's right there are many people who say they feel heavier when taking off their clothes and they say it's like feeling gravity from there that's right it's called zero-gravity dressing I was initially hung in mid-air Is that how you do the dressing in this state Or they said something like "space dressing" I think it's a bit of a pity But is that something a bit different from the usual so-called dressing I think that's right Most people have the image that wearing a kimono is uncomfortable and that taking it off is more convenient So taking it off brings a sense of relief I think that's not the image that most people have of a kimono That's what they say That's why Akiko-san wears this kimono when she's doing everyday things like wearing casual clothes at home doing housework lying down or watching television Actually it's said to be good for both the body and mind That's what's being proposed right Is that it What was the reasoning behind coming up with that idea Just like you said it was pleasant At first I was really worried if it was actually pleasant So I asked a lot of people to help out on the monitor When I let about 100 people wear the traditional attire many people said they felt much more comfortable physically mentally relaxed and surrounded by a sense of security I really didn't expect this I was surprised I was wondering what to do with this I hoped many people would wear it I thought if people had such a reaction they would wear it so what form should it take I thought it would best to share this with everyone I had many thoughts one day suddenly who decided to go out in a suit certainly Back then it was definitely not the Edo period you know That's right You hardly ever went out didn't you So you should have been wearing it 24 hours a day 365 days a year I was doing this job yet I was always trapped by the belief that I had to wear something outside and back then people didn 't usually wear such things in daily life That's right so wearing it as everyday clothes was a sense of clothing to wear outside so coming home and taking it off was done without any questions You were dressed in Western clothes which is kind of amazing isn't it It's like a Copernican shift I was really surprised so I wondered why I didn't realize something so simple It's about what I thought But nowadays the opportunity to wear a kimono has really decreased hasn't it That's why from the industry's perspective they need to create more opportunities for people to wear kimonos We do what the industry offers like hosting events or dinners and when we go to a restaurant as salespeople we often get good seats But just because of that reason alone isn't a good enough motivation to buy a kimono is it I was thinking that maybe we could have an event every week and all eat dinner together but I've always thought that's not the case so if we're inside the house we don't have to worry about anyone seeing us You don't have to wear a high-cost kimono and there's no criticism from others about the combination either and if it's good for your body that's even better I thought Today you said I look like a literary giant which is very kind of you but after all the old literary giants also faced things like this That's something you wear every day and from the amazing way it moves it feels like the impact on the body is different But what kind of impression does that give you It's just really amazing I thought when I first started doing this I really couldn't do it it's just so amazing it's a bit suspicious It's kind of expected that things like back pain or shoulder stiffness would get a little better but then the sleep would get deeper Then it gets better in terms of the coldness then something changes in the feelings and the relationship between the couple improves The relationship between the kimono and the couple is quite distant The swimming distance has increased or the distance they can swim has increased A bit already What kind of message was it that said something like "and in the end a miracle happened teacher" and "stop please stop doing this anymore" and "what is it" I wondered why but in the end I probably thought that people who couldn't do seiza because their knees hurt could suddenly do it and a lot of things like that happened I thought it was just because I wasn't wearing a kimono Oh rather I was acting in an unnatural way I thought that so rather than talking about the Musubi Kizuke it's because originally the Japanese wore kimonos but they stopped wearing them If it's just about losing the rhythm Indeed the tightness of undergarments these days is really something isn't it It's the same for men but even more so for women That's why it ends up affecting the lymph and blood circulation in the body It's called the flow of energy I suppose That kind of thing can be hindered so I do pay some attention to such health matters I usually wear a loincloth We would like to strongly recommend wearing a fundoshi From there if you are going to sing about Japanese culture then it should start with the fundoshi Trunks and briefs are rather old- fashioned aren't they I'd like to promote something newer but even so those are made of rubber so there's electricity involved The body is controlled by an incredible flow of electricity so I've known all along that just changing it into underpants makes a difference When you wear this kimono you realize how unnatural your usual clothing is don't you And the various sports records that have improved or extended lately I think I can agree with that Is that it It's something like the unique way Japanese people move isn't it I think it 's also related to such things I think so So when I first started trying to get dressed at home like this I thought it would be easy if I just paid attention to a few key points But that's all of you not being able to wear it I was wondering what happened to that I thought maybe everyone has been ignoring it all along and I wondered if they were responding and I realized that even if I explained it they couldn't do it that's right it's not that it' s very difficult but they couldn 't do it and when I wondered why It turns out you can't do this with the movement of clothes The action of putting on clothes is like this Indeed you do it like this with the sleeves Whether you're wearing pants or not it's like this the whole movement is big but with a kimono it's like wrapping yourself so once you put it on you can't wrap yourself can you It's like you end up blocking yourself and that's really connected to movement and clothing definitely chopsticks are the same way You can't eat with chopsticks if you open them like this but nowadays people wear clothes and hold chopsticks like this so there are a lot of people eating this way with a knife and fork Yes that's right It's more like the sides become loose I guess That's right when you wear it in daily life it gets corrected by the movement of your body Yes to put it simply it means this side becomes loose You know it's something that's always been criticized as a bad move being careless with the armpit you get scolded if you do that the whole sleeve gets in the way so if you make a careless move with the armpit For example when you move your hands behind your back the sleeves block everything making it hard to move that's right there are people who say kimonos are hard to move in but that' s because they're moving in a way that doesn't suit the kimono That's why they put up a sign saying "If you go there your side will become soft" It's a device that corrects automatically isn't it That's why the more you wear it the more you get used to its movements I think it's actually working Indeed even when taking something it's definitely working I'll make sure it looks nice here That's right I think the way the body moves and the state of mind are really connected Is there a change in the emotional aspect when you're actually wearing it There are a lot of people who do it but even when you do that thing of propping up one elbow it's the same but the movements you usually do are actually a lot of movements that make you want to look up When you're in a good mood your thoughts tend to take the lead You can wear clothes even if you don't feel like it You don't have to feel good today do you Or maybe you did a good job wearing today's shirt The belt doesn't have any tightness or looseness you know That's right So there's no habit of feeling it while wearing it When you wear it while being aware of it it naturally leads to that kind of movement and it makes me feel more relaxed When you calm down your focus shifts to the center of your body When the center is stable the outer parts can relax When the tension in your shoulders eases and so on That's what I think when I watch all of you: it feels like the walls between people are coming down I get a sense of a relaxed atmosphere where even people meeting for the first time are talking comfortably That's completely opposite to the current era where people wear masks and build walls I really feel like the wall is getting stronger now Indeed as I'm listening to the conversation it's really uncomfortable to wear a suit It' s more like forcing yourself into the clothes So if your body shape changes a bit the buttons might get tight but with a kimono it's the opposite you adjust the clothes to fit yourself It feels like the clothes really protect me That's right It really felt that way you know It's the same with the Japanese-style rooms Once you take out the sliding doors the walls disappear right It's basically just supported by pillars It's not a culture that originally had walls That's why Western culture has quite clear walls and boundaries whether it's stone or brick Whether it's a house or a castle it's the same That's why the concept of a shrine is difficult Such people say that when translated into English a torii becomes a gate but why is it called a gate when it doesn't close Surely we can go anywhere we want and even so we show our respect There's no clear boundary in sight That 's right Moreover the area next to the torii is completely open That's why it seems quite strange Indeed that's true So in a way it's like a psychological boundary and it serves as an entry point to straighten one's mind doesn't it Ah I see That's why when talking about castles abroad and places like the Imperial Palace in Japan the Imperial Palace doesn't have walls The current Imperial Palace has moats but in the past places like the Kyoto Imperial Palace didn't It's really amazing that there's just one wall foreigners say So if there 's a god you don't need thick walls I think even when looking at a kimono Recently we've also been talking about it a lot but post-war Japanese culture became very Americanized and in terms of religion Christianity came in In that context the event of Akutagawa Ryunosuke 's suicide became a big topic of conversation he had graduated from Tokyo University and was an elite who had broken through as a writer That's how it turned out so why did he take his own life The cause was vaguely described with the phrase "a vague sense of anxiety " and it was spoken about like that Those words were really powerful back then weren't they But I still think that hasn't changed In a vague sense of anxiety It's scary to show your true self There's no outward expectation of it appearing like that I think That's how you brand yourself more isn 't it wearing it to look good you know and even kimono went that way I think after all in reality the shape is the same I think that's what makes the clothing stand out as truly personal if the person for example changes as they grow older the way they dress also changes Wearing the same thing can still change I think that's the kind of clothing that shows a person's individuality and even if you wear the same thing it can look completely different depending on who is wearing it But now there are also set measurements like how many centimeters or angles like this so the shape is decided before you even see the person It's the kind of styling that's commonly seen in traditional attire In that sense if wearing a kimono becomes more commonplace in daily life I think more people might be willing to try it and I hope that would increase the number of people interested in the kimono industry as a whole Are people who wear clothes really decreasing That's right I started to prefer wearing comfortable things at home like this and I've come to want to wear more comfortable things That's exactly what I used to think was such a hassle but now I realize it's actually really comfortable It's a situation where just as more people have been able to wear it the more enjoyable something is the more people end up leaving and the creators are the ones who have to deal with it Why is that Well I think the calculations don't add up That's how it ends up isn't it Even now you have all sorts of things laid out in front of me It's something made using traditional methods that have been around for a long time isn't it It 's not the current cost-performance society where cost-performance and time-performance are good A society where safe standardized products are the norm and everyone around you is also using similar things so nothing stands out and such trends keep creating more popularity It's things like patterns or folding methods that have been around for hundreds of years which take so much effort that you can't even bother with cost- effectiveness you know something like that from Japan I'm not very familiar with it but among these types of fabric when it comes to kimonos there are certain genres or types What kind of category is that Well what I'm saying now is that I'm going to wear a yukata at home mainly the bigger one on this side These are also made in the same way but they are made in Aichi Prefecture's Yatsuhashi using Yatsuhashi dyeing This and the other one are called "tsukushin" (stitching) It's the manufacturer's product but it's a long-established yukata shop that has been around since the Edo period Imagine it like the kind of outfit actors wear for practice and you'll get a good idea of what I'm talking about but how exactly is Yuzen Shibori made This is all tied together with thread This part here the white line is the thread part Is this made by tightening Yes The part that's twisted and crumpled doesn't get dyed We squeeze each one by hand one by one and even like this this soft and unique texture and feel you know The fabric itself is good for tying of course but because it is tied the fabric develops texture making the feel soft against the skin It feels great you know It's really comfortable It's not cheap at all but a lot of people are buying it to wear as a nightgown Are you wearing it now too Yes It's really expensive but everyone wears this as a sleeping robe But I think it's actually really important Because the time you spend sleeping is the longest and the time you spend at home is the longest You should be spending your money there the most but nowadays people end up spending it just to look good on the outside and that ends up becoming a kind of competition doesn 't it When that happens It's exactly the kind of image you'd have of the world of kimonos That's right It's a really important thing I really thought so That's why I went through all this trouble It finally clicked I've always liked it though I guess for example if you'recommending something to everyone you'd spend tens of thousands on a kimono that you only wear once a summer right So in that case it's definitely a family meeting isn't it That 's right So I thought that it could be passed on And finally I found the meaning of it Whenever I wear it It's become clear that from here you can receive all sorts of feelings but when that became clear it seemed like it was only decreasing so are there people currently creating it He is extremely elderly The new ones haven't really increased much So is that the case Well somehow with that cost-effectiveness you know jumping on that competition Japan came through the 1970s You know it's been 30 years and it's really not working anymore But I think it's no longer about competing On the other hand things like this no matter how much you compete It's something that can't be made anywhere else and when you search for that sense of comfort in everyday life you eventually end up with something like this It's about becoming clear right That's right That's why I chose this place because when I had my kimono put on here I felt really good so that's why What is it The feel of it The rest is just a bit of wrapping feel I feel good about the way I'm being dressed and I also think this kind of thing is made by hand right Yes I put all the glue here Dye is applied here Because the same pattern is repeated So we fold it like this Like a furnace we blow it through So it is absorbed from below Oh I see This is the pattern for lemon side cutting It's cute isn't it I really like the houndstooth pattern around here Nami the name Houndstooth is still a bit lucky No matter how you look at it it's not a flying wind is it It's flowing isn't it It' s an interesting combination That's amazing It really feels like it's done by hand Since ancient times they say in Japanese that you put wood into the language It still feels like that somehow There's a sense of something hidden in it In this single thread This is what prayer really is I feel that very much If it were just a regular job I would really better off working part-time somewhere I think you can get a lot of money as a salary but you can't do something like this without having this kind of idea I really think so you know people who feel the importance of things like this First come and see or something like that If you're young maybe at a time when you're trying to figure out what path to take in life I really hope you can carry on traditional Japanese culture or something like that That's why younger people might find something about Japan's future right here and I think that would be really great Yes it's something you keep close to your skin so to speak something you wear That's right isn't it There are things that can't be replaced by money don't you think I really felt that way It has been passed down through generations and it's a traditional way of dressing so there are various schools or styles right Yes but probably traditional Here it's a bit awkward to say but The dress-making class itself is new Originally my mother used to come so it was common to wear them during the Meiji and Taisho periods and it wasn't something one learned alone That's right After that whenever there were various doubts it became commercialized So probably at that time I incorporated the idea of clothes or rather I was unconsciously influenced by clothes and ended up dressing that way I think that's what it was It seems like it's turning into a kimono fitting process that focuses on shape but in the end it's about flow There were all sorts of problems like it being uncomfortable hard to put on properly or not being able to learn even after trying and I thought that kimono was something you couldn't really learn unless you practiced for many years I was wondering if it's really that serious but even so it would make things seem very high-class and people would stop wearing kimonos and if the entire kimono culture faded away there would be nothing left so that's why people who like wearing kimonos For example even though it's supposed to be a job where you dress people people who are made to wear kimonos all say they feel uncomfortable and lose the desire to wear kimonos creating a contradiction I wonder if that' s really true Such I thought maybe it's an ambiguous and vague thing but one day suddenly Japan is a country that does things extremely meticulously I was wondering if something like that could really happen just with a kimono What if I changed my own assumptions I thought isn't a kimono incredibly perfectly made I tried what would happen if that were the case All the pieces fit perfectly together What do you mean by that The intricacy of the kimono For example things like this sticking out you know That's something people often say Things like this sticking out and also things like this feeling stuffy It's a very common problem when you're without a woman but simply put it's very connected but there's the collar and the seam Another name has been given so that's exactly how you end up thinking about it separately This is how you remove the collar Decide on the collar This is how you remove the collar emblem I think about it separately when deciding how to tie the collar but if you consider that everything is ultimately connected isn't it the same when this part floats and when it gets stuck If it gets stuck it floats so I thought if you connect them all together everything would be solved As you keep connecting them one after another you end up reaching the whole picture I thought that's why the pattern is done in one piece Is that it You can wear it more freely like that There's a bit of a tendency to step outside of what's usually done here or what's supposed to be worn here Well how should I put it When I heard the sound of a kimono it just naturally happened that way Oh I see That the kimono is made in this way it's best to wear it like this if you let the fabric go in the direction it wants to go This is like becoming a shape that fits well with that person's figure and feelings For example it could be different between men and women or based on body type So in the end even though the body type is different the image is For example if you were to wrap something with a furoshiki whether it's a watermelon or a box our method remains the same doesn't it When the inside changes the way it bends changes too something like that I think oh that's the feeling What are the differences in shape between men and women Men's bodies are just simple in structure I guess Why are you laughing Is it okay to say simple It's actually quite simple but when you remove that part it becomes quite an A-line shape But I still think the flow of energy is the most obvious I did mention earlier that the flow is important but the way the fabric is handled is completely different between men and women How is it different In the case of women you lower it from behind This is about removing the design then lowering the back and lifting the front meaning going the other way around But men wear it by pulling it in and lowering the front That's called the opposite direction You know When you say it according to the flow of energy Men and women have opposite ways of circulating energy I said it was different When I actually imagined myself breathing I found that I couldn't breathe properly when I was in a male state so I thought I wasn't a man That's how it even shows up in things like breathing and such So I think that's why when you wear it it makes you feel more in order That must be one of those things So it really shows how well thought out it is That's amazing This design is really simple isn't it Because it turns loneliness and everything into this form so it turns into a single unit it's super eco-friendly really It's designed so that even if the person changes it can still be worn right It's amazing This kimono I'm wearing today is actually borrowed and I'm wearing one that's made for someone with a completely different body type But when dressed properly it can be worn quite normally after all even the same item of clothing takes on a form that suits the person wearing it truly this depth and complexity of Japanese traditional clothing It really made me feel something I really have been listening to a lot of things today I really think that now cost-effectiveness is really important When it's winter clothes are just normally warm And when it's summer they're just normally cool It's become something like just going along with the popular fashion trend and if you're like that you might as well just wear anything but in the end Japanese people are like that with food as well as with what they wear It's the same with a place to live not just seeing things as things but seeing something behind them imagining something in them this is something like that It's because we've treated things like spirits or gods dwelling in them that we've developed a culture that's unique to other countries It's really sad when something just becomes about functionality and you end up thinking that anything that can be worn is fine I've heard that some people actually wear kimono in their daily lives But even among them I think kimono is still great Today students are also coming in That's why this is actually something necessary I think some people might wake up feeling that In that context what kind of feelings do I want to convey about kimonos I'd like to ask you if it's the last one in your own mind but I still think as I said earlier that it's the one you wear at home and I wondered why I didn't realize it It's the clothes that the mother used to dress the child in isn't it That's why I definitely think there's a desire for them to get well again and be happy and that's what's definitely in there Since a kimono has a single shape I think the prayers of everyone might be inside it so I wear it thinking it's different it 's not just a garment to show off to others Protect and nurture them I think it's a piece of clothing filled with the desire for you to be happy Sure it was compared to a furoshiki but a furoshiki is exactly that you know It's said that everyone who wears it feels a sense of security I didn't really intend to do that I thought "Hmm " but in the end if everyone feels that sense of being wrapped up and protected It's amazing how much more you can challenge yourself with just that I think Also getting rid of the wall is really important you know Especially in these times I really think so So since the pandemic there have been fewer opportunities to go out and there have also been fewer events so it's said that the kimono industry has suffered even more damage It's like if that's the case why not wear it in daily life right Thank you so much for this precious conversation and for showing me such a precious kimono Thank you very much I almost forgot to mention that at the end This pattern is also really beautiful isn't it This one is also a gathered sleeve They say it can't be made anymore now but I don't know if it's true or not They say it's something that could be put in a museum but the things they have in the Metropolitan Museum are way better They said it was of the same class but I took a closer look and it's amazing The pattern is really nice but when I looked more carefully it's actually quite traditional The crane is flying and there is a pine tree This is also called a "shigiri" It's made entirely with threads and then painted with a brush At this level of detail the color is applied with such precision and because it's dyed while tightened this blurring effect is quite artistic It's really amazing how they have such a sense of style The sense that allows this color combination These individual little dots Tightening this part It's wrapped tightly with a thin thread wrapped tightly with a thin thread Since the fingers are this size it's an incredibly delicate task isn't it That's amazing When you find something like this you can't help but bring it along If you don't bring it along you have a habit of doing so This is already an artwork It's really amazing The fact that they made it as something to wear not as a painting is really impressive What a beautiful thing it is truly like Japan Beauty is incorporated into the things that are used It's just this much I think without feelings it's impossible It's a huge amount of work I wonder how much time it will take altogether But even if it took a lot of time there were things we still wanted to convey and feelings we wanted to leave behind which is why these things were created and remained We want to keep those parts don't we Thank you for taking the time today thank you today I really wanted to wear a kimono Everyone can also buy kimono here on the website and there are also separate kimono wearing classes that's right I guess some people lie down in the kimono dressing class because I think everyone has never relaxed in a kimono so let's have lunch together Nap time is also included in the schedule Even during lunchtime there's a curriculum I'm doing this because I want you to experience sleeping in a kimono at least once It's really interesting Please everyone reconsider wearing a kimono in your daily life It really fits the Japanese experience you know In a way the more you go to the city the less suits suit you but in a way it's more like But as kimono becomes more and more dignified and has a great atmosphere it's really stylish I really hope everyone will try wearing a kimono once That's it for this time We had a conversation with Chiiko Tanaka known for her Mariko style Thank you very much Thank you It was a great university experience in Japan