Gerald Hüther - Was uns Menschen ausmacht und von der KI unterscheidet

I think there will be three topics that would be very exciting if we could illuminate them well in this podcast. Welcome and nice to have you with us. Thank you very much. Yes, dear Mr. Ziegler, I was happy and I also find it interesting that we both have the same first name. We can also call each other Gerald. Yes gladly. But yes, we are in a difficult social transition phase and I think it is important that you try to understand a little bit what is actually happening, because it is not so much the knowledge that we lack. So you can get knowledge everywhere and that's why it's nice that there is still such a second word in German, which means to understand. Then you notice that knowledge is purely cognitive, I do that here with the cortex somehow, but I can know something and still do it very differently because it doesn't touch me, because it has nothing to do with me. So knowledge is something very superficial and that's why we can store it in our digital devices, in the database. So if I really, really understood something, I can't go on like before because it has captured me as a whole. So you would have to keep these terms apart in practice and in everyday life. Of course we don't do that and that creates a language with which you constantly misunderstand each other. And my intention as a brain researcher is to arouse understanding. I don't want to teach anyone knowledge, I'm not interested in that. If he understands something, I think it's pretty good, but if he understands it, it would be great. We'll try to do that now. Exactly, that's what I was just about to suggest. But maybe we'll rewind a little bit. It's up to you, I think, to carry it all to Athens, because I think you're already very, very famous and you're the most famous brain researcher in Germany. Then I was allowed to study it, that was still in the GDR at the time, and then I tried to understand how life works as a biologist. And that led me to the fact that I said, it's most exciting when you deal with the brain. Then I became a neurobiologist and did experimental brain research for years, as one wishes or as one imagines it outside. I then became an expert for serotonergic presynapses. Sounds pretty cool. It sounds cool and there may be 20 of them all over the world. They all tell each other and write in the articles what they have found. But then I realized that this was not what I was actually aiming for. You were not in the deepest of the living. I ended up in a dead end. In any case, in a very deep hole where you could hardly see the bright daylight. Then I thought, okay, you have to get out of here somehow. If he doesn't do that, it is more likely that the company will only develop on the way, that different departments will form and that is a self-organizing process. Wonderful. And so it is also with the brain. The networks in the brain are not fixed, but they can be reconstructed over time. And that has a huge consequence for us humans. Namely, that means that nothing can be fixed so that it can be reconstructed. And the answer is through the ideas that we derive from the experiences that we have made in this life. Some ideas are taken over by others. So we are in this world in an almost prosaic way. If we are honest, nobody knows how it works. We have to try it out. It's easier if you get on the way together with others, but even that actually protects you from being confused as an individual and sometimes even as a community, sometimes even as a whole society. We all know that. And that is the happy message that then comes. And we don't want to make a scarecrow here, that you only get confused all the time. You can get confused, but you can also find out again. And then the brain also changes. That is impressive. People can also put aside exaggerations and instincts. People can even kill themselves because they have the idea that their life without this partner that they have lost now makes no sense. No animal can do that. You can see how strongly we are guided by our ideas. And we derive these ideas from the experiences that we have. And what is anchored in the brain are not the problems that you have, but the solution. And that is also true. What should I remember about all the problems? Although we only talk about the many problems that we had, but we forget to ask ourselves what solution we had. And then your father hit you. What did your solution look like? So the identification with the hitting father or with this violence that you use to make others react the way you want them to is a solution. The child is looking for a solution and the father offers it to him in a formal way. So there is a whole spectrum of such solutions. And when I list them, it becomes clear that there are solutions that could last a lifetime. But there are a lot of solutions that lead to disaster. And also the willingness to admit to the unpredictability of life, which they have long lost. That is foreign and they have to control everything. And the result of that is that what they do together always becomes terrible. Even in a company, when they start to control, in the end they have surveillance cameras on the toilet to measure what they bring in. These are topics that have opened up for me as a brain researcher. And then I tried to translate this knowledge in such a way that people understand it who do not know so much about the brain. I don't think it's necessary to know so much about the brain, you should know a little better about life. Yes, and then I'm glad to be a brain researcher again. Because that's such a simple explanation. We've been doing this for a hundred years now. It's like a legacy of society. And now we're going to continue like this. No, no, no. Every child that grows up in this world is prepared for this kind of way of thinking and this kind of way of thinking is offered to them as a solution. And that's why every child is always new to it. Then the attitude that grows out of it is called zero desire for school. The more I bring a growing up into a situation where he can no longer follow his natural desire for discovery and his desire for design, the more I force him to find something as a solution for this terrible experience. The student, if he ever had it, had to suppress it in such a way that it just grew in his brain, inhibiting distortions over the range from which it comes, until they are so tight that nothing comes out of it. And then you can do everything that the supervisor tells you. And then you don't feel like going to school anymore, you won't feel like being active either. What we call work today. And then you only work to earn money. And in reality, neurobiologically, this ability to be able to design something yourself, to be active, is a basic need of the human being. If someone only works for money, this is a sign that he has suppressed his need to design something as a free person for so long that there is nothing left but this kind of commitment or this kind of idea that you would only work to earn money. And then everything else that comes, it has become an attitude. And then everything else that comes is always dependent on it. And so you are also asked how much there is for it. And then you have created a situation where you have employees who participate as long as there are enough incentives. And if that is no longer the case, then they stop working. Or as long as the pressure is maintained. Yes, I haven't mentioned the pressure yet, but you can only put the pressure on when the number of jobs is less than the number of applicants. At the moment, this is called lack of expertise. This is where it turns around and the pressure is dropped. I threaten you with dismissal and then you have to try with the reward. And as a brain researcher, I can only say, keep going. There are dismissal methods that are used there, with reward or fine. You make the employee the object of his ideas, his intentions, his goals, then also his teachings and also his assessments. There is no room for the experience of one's own subjectivity and the joy of one's own design. It all has to go, otherwise you can't stop this mill. And in most cases, the schools do a relatively good job. They provide young adults who would have fit wonderfully into the previous century. But today you actually need people who have learned to do what they are told without any desire and then maybe earn a lot of money or make a career. They don't need anyone else in modern companies today. You would need people who think along, who feel responsible for the whole thing, who design something themselves, who bring in creativity, the ability to look for solutions with others in the team, also with service providers and customers and suppliers, so that they also like to work with the company. These are all skills that a person cannot learn. This is always an expression of a certain attitude. You can take a course a hundred times on how the consultant has to deal with his customer. It all remains mechanical and every customer who has to experience this, realizes that there is someone sitting in front of him who doesn't care at all. And he just worked out his plan. And with people like that, there is no starting point. It's over. And what we always try to do is to change the behavior of our employees through courses and teachings and measures. And what we forget, and I can explain this neurobiologically so beautifully, is that behavior is an expression of an attitude. So the attitude, this inner attitude of the employee determines how he behaves. And if I try to correct the behavior, I can do that with reward and punishment, I can see it, I can achieve that he behaves differently. But he hasn't changed his attitude yet. And if I stop with my reward, he falls back into the old attitude and the resulting behavior. And to change attitudes, so to speak, is not really planned in our previous training courses. Exactly, because the trainings also target the behavior again and they are also given again. That means that you also make people the object of your goals again through this training. Everything is mixed up. And now you could say, if I want to change this attitude, this inner attitude, then I would first have to try to understand how it actually arises. This attitude, this inner attitude, is nothing cognitive. It's always something that hurts the heart. So I'm someone who can't live without order. Or I'm someone who just likes to look at the world and who doesn't care about anything else in this world. These are attitudes. And these attitudes arise through experience. Not through teaching, not through teaching, but the experience gained during teaching. And they are stored in the brain, so to speak, as coupled networks. In every experience you have, there is always a cognitive component. So this and that happened during the employee conversation with my boss, he said this and that. And at home you can also tell how it went for you when he said that. And that's connected. That's why experiences are always emotionally and cognitively coupled. Several similar experiences are compacted into something up there, which is called an attitude. A meta-experience, so to speak. And you can't change that by talking to him. Then you only reach the cognitive branch. And then you say, no, I don't trust him. And you can't change that either by kissing him and hugging him. Then he says, oh, that's enough for me now. But who knows what he's up to now. So that means you can't get any further. And when attitude and inner conviction arise through experience, then there is only one way. You have to give this other person the opportunity to have a different, cheaper experience. Then the attitude could also change. That means the possibility to change people, in quotation marks, would be to offer them a different experience. You can't change them. You have to deal with the fact that you can't change them. You can break them down and trace them, but that's not a change, that's just a right-angled thing. If you really want the other person to change, then you have to deal with the fact that he is the only one who can do that. Not you. But you could create conditions in which he has an experience that leads to him wanting to change. Because that was so beautiful. Someone who has never liked to work with others and then suddenly experiences how beautiful it is to sing with other people in the choir, could come to the conclusion that it's actually great to do something together with others. And then he could maybe have other experiences where he experiences the same thing. And in the end he goes to the company and is happy that he has other employees with whom he can work together. Can be active. Can be creative. Can solve problems in co-creative processes that you can't solve alone. But you have to enable this new experience and you can't do that. What you can do, and that's always what is so difficult for us, is that you can invite the other person and encourage and inspire this new experience. So at least allow yourself to look at it. Maybe it's like I described it with the choir. Then you realize how subtle that is. I chose this example on purpose because no boss wants to send a team of incapable employees to the choir. But that would be the invitation. It is certainly more helpful than if he sends you to a seminar where you should learn teamwork. That means the leadership has to understand itself more as an enabler. And go in the position of the enabler, the inviting, the encouraging and the inspiring in the end. Yes, at least when he wants employees who think for themselves. If he needs others who just do what he does, then he has to take the whip and the sugar boat and so on, as most of them worked in the previous century. Yes, but I am lucky enough to be able to work with many companies that have already recognized that they need something new. But they are still looking for how they can really proceed between the external framework conditions that still exist. The banks want to make returns or want to see results. Other stakeholders want to see goals and results and want to see money. And to find this way here, how can I promote the design potential of people that we ultimately create new ideas and that we also bring new products to the market or offer performance or whatever. The entrepreneur or the leadership has to be someone who can decide something himself. Who somehow also has the space to play. And if there is so much pressure in a company that there is no more space to play, then he gives it down. He can't do that either. Then it is too much for him to invite the employees. Then it is better to give him a sharp whip and proper incentives so that he can drive the employees there with rewards and punishments where the next quarter figures are to be achieved. So in the short term, if you are traveling in such a way that you need short-term solutions, it is not possible. But I already wanted to say at the beginning, these short-term solutions that you find are always dead ends. Because they cause long-term damage. And that's why it would be good to think about whether you really want the short-term solution and also want to use it, or whether it would be better in the sense of the company and the long-term success of the company to do the whole thing in the long term. Of course, this is easier for entrepreneurs or companies led by their owners, which I am fortunate to accompany a lot, because they have longer perspectives. They don't have quarter figures, but they think about providing them in ten-year rhythms for generations. That is also their advantage. I believe that the actual power of innovation comes from this area. And that is diametrically different from someone who is the boss of a DAX-led equity company. He is actually not a decider at all. That's a challenge. He doesn't have anything to decide either. He has to reach these quarter figures, otherwise he will fly out. Exactly. And how the leadership is working and what pressure they have, of course, the whole company will have to deal with. That's up to the general manager. And you can see that. A colleague, a consultant, once told me, he comes into the company and down at the reception table he only needs to talk to the people twice and then he knows what kind of business climate he is in. Exactly. I recently interviewed an owner who also said, I come into the company and I know if the company is still alive or dead. Yes, exactly. That's exactly the point. But that is continuous from top to bottom. It's not always a single department that doesn't work. As they say in Germany, the fish begins to sink from the head. Something that unfortunately repeats itself over and over again. Yes, but now we said that every person can only change for themselves. And he has to make a decision. And we also worked out in the preliminary talks whether it is really a decision or a decision. I think here we could introduce another exciting perspective in this podcast. To see what I really need. Do I need a decision where I make a decision? Or would I need an inner decision that I want to change as a person, as an employee or as a manager or whatever? That's extremely exciting. Because we of course... First of all, most people don't know the difference between making a decision and making a decision. Entrepreneurs, I think, can do it best especially when they take responsibility for something. It's a decision to take this responsibility. And not a decision. A decision is always something that I weigh. Here it is and there it is. And then I ask myself, what am I doing now? Politicians always decide something. And then they have this possibility and this option and then something is decided. And there is a special tendency, namely that this decision... Because nowadays you are not always so sure how to decide, you get information. So you get informed. There are so many devices and now even learnable software with whose help you can gather all the information that either speaks for this or for that. Then you can also get advisors and experts who also do their job. And then you have a state, so to speak, when you think it through, where the devices are really so good and the experts are so good that they tell you straight away, this is the right thing and this is the wrong thing. And this is a point where you have to admit honestly, even as an entrepreneur, now I don't make any decisions anymore. Now I only follow an algorithm or an expert I am convinced of who is doing the right thing. And that's how decisions are made in politics today. I come into a difficult position as a politician and now I have to make a decision. The media also press. The virus has broken out. We have the pandemic. And now I have to decide something quickly. I don't even know what to decide. I have no idea about virus diseases. And what do I do then? Then I get experts and ask them. And when I have experts who are particularly familiar with viruses, then I get a lot of advice on what exactly to do so that this virus does not spread further. And if I don't consider that every measure may not have such a beneficial effect in the long term, I follow these expert advice and make the decision. And I say, I claim, we have decided, we politicians, but in reality they didn't decide anything. They did what the experts said. And with the experts it is still clear that they can still be wrong. That's a blessing. But these algorithms that we now have and will continue to implement in the next few years, they will no longer be wrong. That means, if I have a question, is this the right thing or is that the right thing, they do that. And with that, the person actually loses more and more of his position as someone who decides something. So everything that can be calculated in algorithms no longer needs to be decided, but the decision has been made based on the data. They call it alternative-free. And that means, in the end, the person loses the most important thing that actually defines him as a human being, namely that he has a certain freedom of decision. There is nothing more to decide. And that's why I find it so exciting that we still have a different term in German. So there are also decisions that are so complex that they don't calculate a calculator and also don't calculate a supercomputer. Yes, that's such a decision. Do I want to share my life with these other people, with these other women, with this other man? What do I want to do in my life? What do I want the life given to me to do? What talents and talents do I want to bring to fruition? You can ask a calculator a hundred times. He won't be able to decide that because it depends entirely on me. So I am the one who decides. That's why there are non-objectifiable questions that can only be answered by the person concerned. And there is no alternative. So if I decide for this woman, then I can't decide for another one in half a year. And for this case, we also have a different word in German. That means to decide. And then you realize that there is something different than to decide. When you decide, it can also be reversed. And that is very much determined by data layers and external factors. So I'm not really asked about my inner self. So I'm just the one who says right or left. But actually everything is clear if I know exactly about everything. But to make a decision, that's something else. I can only make a decision based on my innermost self. No one else can make that decision for me. I am the one who makes the decision to deal responsibly with my employees. That's not a decision. A decision would mean that I have the other alternative. No. I don't want the other alternative. By making the decision, I exclude the other alternative as a possibility. That is something that has huge consequences if you think about it. Because that means that we as humans, because we are able to decide for something or to something, we can exclude ourselves from all objective circumstances. I can take this woman as my wife even though everyone else says that she doesn't look good. That's my decision. Not my decision. My decision. And if you think about it further, you can decide to be friendly with your employees. That's a decision, not a decision. Then you do it and you can't get out of it because it corresponds to you. You want to be that kind of person. I can decide to do everything to not hurt my own dignity. That's a decision. I could do it differently but I definitely don't want to. I could decide to be a peaceful person. That's a decision. And I don't care about it. Even if everyone around me says that, I don't need to be as peaceful as possible. Because I've decided to be that way. And because I've taken that into my attitude. I'm completely limited to my own attitude and attitude. Exactly. That's what we call the attitude. You decide to be that way, you make the experience that it's good because it corresponds to your decision and makes you authentic. And that's how this inner attitude of a peaceful, loving, sensitive person grows. And because I make the experience with it, this attitude gets stronger and stronger in me and I enjoy it. Exactly. And with a decision, it doesn't work. A decision is always something that you do now, but do differently the next day. There could be good reasons to do it differently the next day. And that's strong tobacco. Because that's actually a basic characteristic of the human being in us. You can never be chased away by artificial intelligence. These artificial intelligences can't make a decision. The cognitive abilities we were so proud of are actually much better long ago. They can't make a decision. They can only decide. And they decide based on the data that was somehow fed in by someone. At the latest at this point you notice that the term decision is a purely cognitive level that has nothing to do with us. And that's why it would be nice if we could encourage this conversation to think about whether one or the other has ever decided to do something in their life. Everyone has decided a thousand times. Or at least believed that they would have decided. But whether one has decided to do something. And for me it has a different connection. I feel a different connection in this term. Because you did it for yourself. You didn't do it for others for objective reasons but for your whole subjectivity. You as Gerald Ziegler have to make sure that you always handle this and that in the future. And here we are also with our own question what are my needs? What is mine? What is my being? And who do I want to be? Exactly what you just mentioned. I am very close to myself and I am not outside to please others or to do something. I am not seducible anymore. If you only made a decision people can come with other arguments and you realize that it was the wrong decision. But a decision that you made for yourself after careful thinking and deep introspection no one will be able to get rid of it. Because this is the way you go. And then I am at my dignity at my authenticity and I think that people look at you like that. That you are someone who is by himself. That's how you call it in German. Who doesn't constantly look outside what he has to do to be successful but who is by himself and knows what he wants to do out of himself. What he wants, exactly. I find that so beautiful because there was a stupid discussion in Germany 20-30 years ago about the question of the freedom of will. And they discussed because there were experiments that showed that shortly before I make a move in my brain if I press a finger somewhere there is already an action potential. The brain has already decided and you are just leading it. Okay. And that is absolutely nonsense because it has nothing to do with freedom. People went into such experiments and got money to do what they were told and then they just did it. And before I want to make a move up here first it has to be prepared that it also works. When you press a button it is not so obvious yet but imagine you want to hit a wheel while you can still do it in your age. But without you having prepared yourself and made the movement in your brain clear. And that could be measured by brain researchers how you build up the image of the wheel-hitting Gerald. And only when you have the image you can start, otherwise you will break your neck. That has nothing to do with freedom of decision and brain researchers would be desperate if they would have listened to us and we talk about the ability to make a decision for yourself. That is where freedom starts. Not with a stupid decision whether I do this or that which in the end turns out to be nothing because I have to do it anyway according to the situation. But a decision for myself that I want to be that kind of person. That is where we get to. That is where it gets very exciting because it shows that people are not animals but also not real machines. Yes, that is exciting because then you become a future designer and changemaker of your own life. That is exactly what my podcast is called. I think it is really cool and really brilliant. Yes. Thank you very much. Maybe you can give one or two more tips to the listeners if they have been stimulated to think about these things further. Do you have anything concrete how they could continue these thoughts for themselves or what they could do concretely? You already know that I am not someone who gives advice to other people. They are also beatings. To the object of my beatings? No, not at all. But if we let this happen again, then it means that I have to try in my life to listen inside me, to feel inside me so that I can find out what real needs are lurking inside me and if I have found a way where I have started to suppress these needs so that I function optimally, then I have arrived on a wrong path and I am getting more and more entangled in this way. And if I don't manage to free myself from these entanglements and unfortunately most people don't succeed, then I am someone who can only entangle other people. So before I get mad at my colleagues, I have to ask myself how entangled I am. And how do I get out of these entanglements. And then we come back to this area where we were with the decision. I can only ground myself and find myself by feeling inside me and I can only do that by lovingly dealing with myself. If I judge myself as a fool, think I am too stupid, criticize myself all the time and make myself the object of my own assessment, then I am out of the game. And if I follow a lot of decision-making aids and then eat something that is not good for me, eat with people who are not good for me, or sit in front of the device in the evening and look at something that is not good for me, then I could simply say I don't want that. I could decide to turn it off. And then a wonderful situation arises, namely that you experience that you are now the shape of your own life again. You come back into your shape. And because you also explored yourself a little according to your own needs, you are now more and more connected to yourself and your own body. And with that, the two basic needs with which you have already come into the world are connected and the possibilities of your own shape are suddenly silenced. And when the basic needs are silenced, you are no longer a needy person. And if you are no longer a needy person, then you don't constantly need other people to help you out of your neediness. Also not as a boss who then likes to need other people to admire him or to respect him or to listen to him. So, needy people are, I think, the ones who have no great chances on this planet in the future. But if you connect yourself with your needs and shape your own life again, first of all your own life, loving yourself, then you are automatically loving others. And then you don't need other people anymore. So, you can take care of yourself best alone. It has nothing to do with selfishness. And that leads to the fact that you no longer want something from other people all the time. Admiration, recognition, submission, all of that. But then you are someone who is no longer needy and therefore can give something to other people. And that is, in my opinion, the leadership personality of the future. Not someone who needs the employees to work out his own neediness, but someone who is with himself, who has decided not to hurt his own dignity and to be a boss who does everything so that his employees can develop. That would be the future. Wonderful. Let's work together on this vision, on this vision of the future. And I think there could not have been a better closing word. We can only spread the good news. The one who makes the decision has to implement it. Encouraging, inspiring, inviting, I think that is an important point that we would both like to make. I would love to. I had a great time with you today. Me too. Thank you very much for your exciting presentations. It was a nice conversation. Thank you.