Justice Isn’t Blind — It’s Bought: Real Talk with Amanda DuBois

Now, to the old me, scared and unseen, you're the reason I built this dream. Now I speak, set my scars in a sound, I'm on the edge until I break down, I don't run, eyes won't back down. This is the voice I found, for those who lost their voice, I sing. I keep it real, keep it purpose-bound, every word a step, every truth profound. We don't heal in silence, we fight with grace, softness and defiance, lighting up this place. It's a call to every soul who wants to be free. Hello, hello, it's Brooke DeVard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self-care journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well, because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for Naked Beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. What happens when a labor and delivery nurse becomes a powerhouse trial attorney and best-selling author exposing the dark side of justice? Meet Amanda DuBois, founder of one of Seattle's longest-standing women-owned law firms and the award-winning author of Camille Delaney Mystery Series. But her latest book, Unshackle, rips the curtain back on injustice, power, and how women are forced to fight twice as hard to be seen. This episode dives into the inequalities very deep in our legal system, the emotional toll of being the strong one, and how Amanda's fiction reflections a brutal, honest truth. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. What an intro. You did it. That's amazing. And you're exactly right on. Like, the system's messed up, and that's why we're here. Absolutely. So I wanted to introduce you because I'm really excited about this because I just did, you know, a series on the strong woman theory, you know, and how it kind of gets us into another area that we are not vulnerable to. We're not being vulnerable. So I love that you do this, and I'm really excited about jumping into the Unshackle. So I want to talk about Camille Delaney, your main character, right? Fights the legal system from the inside. How much of a story is yours in disguise? Oh, honey. So we write about what we know, right? So yes, I happen to be a labor and delivery nurse before I became a trial lawyer. So really what happened is I was a nurse and then I went to law school and I became a lawyer. And so and then when I got in the legal system, a lot of things in there just didn't make sense to me because I came from a health care background. For example, when you are a nurse and a patient is brought into the hospital, that patient has value. Like everybody, you don't ask what they did for a living. You don't care what their background are. You don't care anything about that. All you care about is that patient. But when you get in the legal system, they have a different way of valuing a person's life. So for example, if you're injured and you're a brain surgeon, you get more money than if you're injured and you're a barista. So that's why I started writing because it was like being a stranger in a strange land. I came from medicine and I got into the law and I'm like, people need to know how messed up this is. But the only way I knew to do it was to use sort of my own background in the way that I came into the legal system. So yeah, Camille Delaney is pretty close to home. Okay. Yeah, you know, people always tell me when I talk to nonfiction writers, they say, oh no, I made it up. No, you didn't. Yeah, you know what you know, right? Yeah. So yeah, I'm so glad that you did that because there was a big, you know, I know you're probably seeing it too, women transitioning from different positions, right? And then getting a total, I mean totally different, like totally different area. Right. You transitioned from a nurse into a lawyer. How has that shaped your perspective on justice and human worth? Well, that's exactly what I was saying. So when I came from being a nurse where everybody has the same value, being in the legal system where you don't have the same value because you're valued based on your ability to earn income, basically, like in a personal injury action. If you are in a car accident and you break your arm and you're a, you know, a piano player, a concert piano player, you're going to get more money than if you break your arm and you're a teacher. So we value people's even body parts, oddly enough, and their lives based on how much money that they can earn. So going from nursing to law, it's a completely different way of valuing a person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know you saw a lot of that. I mean, I just, I experienced it. My son just was in a car accident and, you know, they had him in there after being thrown off a scooter into the air. They had him in there four hours and didn't do anything. What? Versus my friend was in a car accident, busted her nose. They did a whole body scan. I had to send him back to the hospital to another whole different area and they found everything. They found he had a broken clavicle, had broken ribs and they let him out. And it's because of it. I said, it's two different things. Like my friend is white, of course. And I said to her, you know what it was? She said, why did I do this? Because he was black. So he's there, his body, he's thrown in the air, neck trauma, head trauma, thrown in the air, four hours to keep him. And then they say nothing's wrong with him. But you, you hit your nose on the thing and they give you a total body scan. Oh, wow. That's crazy. The legal system's messed up. The medical system's messed up. It's more and more financially, you know, based on insurance and stuff. So the reason that I started writing stories was that I was dealing with insurance companies as a lawyer. I've been a divorce lawyer for 30 years. But before I was a divorce lawyer, I was a malpractice lawyer. And it was all about insurance companies and them trying not to pay people the claims, the money that they owed them. And it just got really, like, exhausting and discouraging and fatiguing. And I thought, well, if people knew how messed up the system is, maybe we could do something about it. So then I thought, oh, I'll write a magazine article. And I'm like, nobody's going to read about it. So I thought, I'm going to write fiction books. I'm going to write stories where you have characters who've been injured and bad things happen to them and you care about them. And all of a sudden you're going, oh, I didn't know this is how the system works. So the first two books... That's a good one. That's good. So the first two books about the medical system, fast forward 20 years later, I got really involved with women in prison. And so the third book is about women in prison and how their lives are valued and particularly what happens to the children of women when they go to prison. That's the third book is about that. But it's still it's Camille Delaney still, you know, going doing the mystery, solving the mystery. But the backdrop of the mystery is always something that's about, you know, learning about the legal system or some social justice system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a whole nother story there, too. That's a whole nother story. We're waiting for the book on that one. That's a whole nother story. But let's dig into Unshackled. What inspired this book and why was it important to tell the story right now? Well, so I was, I'm like a privileged white lady lawyer, right? I'm a divorce lawyer, divorce rich people. I, you know, I have this law firm. It's sort of a high end fancy law firm. And I ended up volunteering to I wrote actually a couple of books about basic legal rights for regular people and I ended up teaching these books to a group of people who've been in prison, which was just sort of fortuitous. And so I was telling them about how to be a, you know, your legal rights as an employee and your legal rights as a landlord, tenant and car accidents. And they're so sweet. And they're, you know, taking notes. And this one guy finally says this is so helpful. And thank you so much for helping us. There's only one problem. And I said, what's the problem? They said, we're all felons and we can't get a place to live and we can't get a job. And so we've got to step back a little bit. And then they started teaching me. And I all of a sudden found myself about 10 years ago, I found myself in this world of people that had been in prison and they became really good friends of mine. And I would hear their stories and I'm like, well, shoot, those are it's the laws that are holding you back. Exactly. So we need to change the laws. And I'm a lawyer and I know something about that. So I started an organization called Civil Survival. And that was just about teaching formerly incarcerated people how to go to the legislature, to policymakers and start changing laws. And lo and behold, my little group of civil survival people started changing laws out in the state of Washington because I kind of taught them how to do that through workshops that they were having. So anyway, so I got to know all these people that have been in prison. And then I got to know a bunch of women that had been in prison. And then I started hearing their stories about their children and their families. And then the same thing happened. Oh, my God, I had no idea this has to get out. And so I thought I'm going to have to send Camille Delaney down to the women's prison to start exposing all of the injustices that happened to them, especially their children, because, you know, children are the ones I mean, the women's is horrible. But we're sending our people are complaining about public safety and there's all this crime. But if you go so as a medical person, public health, you go upstream and see what causes this. And a lot of what causes crime is people who came from families that are, as you all know, you know, that are have had, you know, problems with the justice system. So and so I'm thinking, well, we've put these mothers in prison and then we throw their kids into foster care. And shockingly, the children end up in the system. And I'm like, well, why are we putting these moms in the prison in the first place? Because women who go to prison don't typically go to prison because they wake up one morning and decide to rob a bank. Most trauma survivors, as you probably know, and they usually get involved in street drugs because they don't have access to therapy and Valium and benzos and things like, you know, people with insurance do. And so and I just started learning this stuff. And I'm like, oh, my God, we're just basically taking trauma survivors and putting them in prison because they're trying to treat their trauma with street drugs, which isn't the best solution, but it works for them in the moment. Right. And then we take the children from them and then we put the children into the system that ends up, you know, causing community safety problems later. And I just thought this is a whole situation. Oh, yes. We'll cycle. So I decided I had to write a story about it. So, you know, so there's the John Shackled is a story about a woman in prison whose baby gets kidnapped. And so Camille's trying to find the baby, but really the story is written to expose all of the problems for moms in prison and the feedback I get from the readers. It's like, oh, my God, I had no idea, which is exactly the reason I wrote it. So, wow, what an awakening. That's just like awareness. That's like bold in the face, you know, and that's what we need at this time. And, you know, in this this I guess the atmosphere that we're in right now, the characters in Unshackled deal with systemic issues. What was the hardest scene for you to write emotionally? Well, the opening scene, a couple of them, but the opening scene starts with a woman in labor who is shackled. And so and I'll tell you what was hard is because she's a black woman. And I was nervous about writing a scene about a black woman shackled in labor. And so thankfully, I have several girlfriends who were women in prison and they really helped me. Like they we did a deep rewrite and they told me a lot of things about, which is kind of what you were just talking about with your son is like when you're a black woman in I don't have to tell you this. I don't need to. But what I learned was if you're a black woman and you're in the sort of in the medical system in the back of your head is always like they don't get paid attention to, especially in the OB department, like labor and delivery. And so my friend Carolyn, who is a black woman who was helping me write this chapter, which is really, you know, I was being very thoughtful about it was she made she said now the character has to be scared because she's, you know, shackled and she's black and she's in the hospital and she's afraid that people aren't going to take her pain seriously. And so that was a really I came out really good. But it was I was I wanted to be really thoughtful about it. And I was like, I was afraid to write that scene, honestly, because I was afraid I'd get it wrong. Oh, that's good. That's really good. It's excellent. Exposing you, you're showing it from the woman's eyes, which is so good because breaking barriers as a life coach that works with those that in trauma, you're breaking barriers by exposing truths. And that's so very, you know, helpful because if you don't expose it, you don't know. You know, it's a secret. The secret festers and becomes everything else. You know, you got to do it right. Like that's when you're talking about people say, I think should I just make stuff up and I'm like, I don't think it's so good to just make stuff up. You have to really like you got it. Like when I write a courtroom scene, it's easy for me because I've been in so many courtrooms. I know exactly how it feels and I know exactly, you know, what the chairs feel like and the linoleum floor and the whole thing. But to write a scene from the perspective that I don't personally have, it's really important to talk to people who have been in that situation. And one of my girlfriends, I and so I sent it out to my friends to read. One of my girlfriends calls me up. She goes, oh my God, did you know I was shackled when I had my daughter? And I'm like, no. Well, so she like helped edit that as well. So I think the point is, is that it was a co-writing. The whole book was viewed by women who are actually currently in prison. I had a handful of women who are in prison that were reading and reviewing and editing the parts about prison to make it accurate. And I also had women that had been shackled and women that had had medical, had been taken out of prison and medical leaves kind of to help me make sure to get that right. That's so good. That's really good. That's really good. I mean, I love the fact that you're working with others to kind of get that view out there. One thing I do say is I have friends and I learned, I think I want to say during the George Floyd incident, what allies and co-conspirators are. And I don't know, I don't call my friends who really lock arms with me in like your situation, you know, seeing it, helping me see things through your eyes and we're reciprocating. They're my co-conspirators. And that means they're not allies for the moment. They're there for the entire time. That's great. I love that. For the moving forward. And they don't change because something happened here, you know, because I learned that, you know, people, I'm very active in the community. So people call me, what's going on about this so we can get involved? Because, you know, I have children that I want them to know. And I was like, you know, hey, you should have been involved before this. This is just traumatic. But this has been happening. This has just been brought out. But it has been happening. And I learned that those that really want to learn will sit and have those difficult conversations, you know, and those conversations that make you like, oh, I don't really understand that. And I love that you say, you know, you're entitled white woman. I love that because you don't know. And it makes us feel like finally somebody that just wants to learn. Well, and then the next step for me is how do you leverage your privilege? Yeah. One thing to learn. And then it's another thing to take action. Right. Put your money where your mouth is and step out. And that's what when I started that civil survival, that organization that helps people like I funded the whole thing. And that's a co-conspirator. Right. Yeah. And so then now I have this, you know, all the there's a large contingent of people that have been in prison and settle here where I live who kind of call me mama because, yes, we've been through so much together. So, yeah, I think I think more people should figure out how to do that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. How do you cope with the emotional heaviness of both practicing law and writing about its failures? That's a good question. Well, practicing law. I've practiced divorce law. So that's just a whole lot of crazy all day, every day. People on a different scale. Right. People are crazy and mean. And you have to keep a little bit of a sense of humor. So. But I kind of feel like Robin Hood, because I make pretty good money as a divorce lawyer. And I'm like, well, and then I turn around and give it away so that like my book, it's all go to social justice causes. So I don't I find it to be invigorating, honestly, because I can do this work, you know, and help rich people get divorced. And, you know, not to minimize their trauma, but it's different. Right. Understood. Over here with people that have a completely different kind of trauma. It's just it feels really I find it to be like I get energy from it. I don't find it to be. That's great. No, you're right. You're Robin Hood. That's I never thought about that. That's a great analogy. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody's got to be Robin Hood. Hey, you know, my people call me up and say, you know, my car broke down. Can you, you know, help me? Can you get me some? You know, it's like having a bunch of I want to say children like their children, but it's like a large family that needs and I'm lucky enough to have the resources. So why not? I didn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel very blessed that I can help people get divorced and make money doing that and turn around and help people that really are struggling. You're a true co-conspirator. True, true, true. Very true. I never thought of myself as that before I tell my friends. It's true co-conspirator. That's great. What's one truth you hope readers walk away with after reading Unshackled, especially those who feel invisible in the system? Well, I didn't write this book for people who feel invisible. I write this book for people who are more privileged who have a pretty good, like who reads a book, who reads a legal thriller, probably a middle-class mom, you know, living in a place who's reading a book. My job, I think my job is to say life is great for a certain percentage of us, but like nobody thinks about moms in prison. It's not something and it's something that any mom can relate to that. So my readers, hopefully, are moms who are obviously not in prison, who are, you know, living a life, soccer moms and, you know, people that are, you know, living a pretty comfortable life to think, wait a minute. There's moms just like me who have done really nothing. I mean, they've done something wrong, but it's not like intentionally. It's usually drug related or sexual abuse or something like that. Like they're trauma survivors and instead of giving them treatment, which we should do, we put them in prison and take their children away from them and throw them in the system. And so like what I hope my books are written for women who are a little more comfortable, who I want to kind of make them uncomfortable. I want to make them uncomfortable to think, wait a minute. What could I do about this? Is there something I could do to make a difference in them? And to stop being so judgy. Like when you see a kid who might have made a wrong decision, think about where that kid's mom is in prison. And dad's going to prison too. But here's what I learned is when a dad goes to prison, the child usually stays with their mom. So they work with their dad and that's traumatic, but they have their primary bond figure. But when a mom goes to prison, they don't typically stay with their dad. They typically end up with grandma or an aunt or they end up- And moving around, right, yeah, yeah. And so those kids who have made bad choices or they, you know, they're not doing well in school or something, it's not because they come from a bad family. It's because they come from a, you know, there's trauma in their family and their mom made some bad choices, but we have to quit being so judgy. Yeah, that's good. That's a good point. So what's on the horizon for you? And, you know, tell my audience about Unshackled and what you're trying to do with the proceeds. I'll let you go away with that. Well, right, so this is super cool. I had a book launch at my- I went to Seattle University School of Law. So I hosted a book launch at the law school. And prior to that, there's a couple of criminal justice professors at Seattle University who decided to start a book club with Unshackled. And they got students, you know, university students, and then they had some moms who'd been in prison. And they got together in a book club and they read the book together and they learned from each other. And so in the course of that, the professors learned that- it was so funny, they're like, we never thought about using fiction to teach a class. It's such a great idea. But my, you know, my students, rather than reading a criminal justice book about what they have in there about, you know, crimes, she goes, they just got so attached to the characters in Unshackled, so we're going to use that as our textbook now. Oh, that's awesome. And then I said, well, what can we do, you know, to make this more real? Anyway, long story short, they're now going to do a research project about moms in prison. So I'm so excited because the whole reason I wrote this book isn't because I want to be a fancy author. It's like to get the information out. So right now they're in the IRB process, which is that, you know, you have to go through the process to do research in a university. So they're in that process to put together a research project, which I can fund with book proceeds because it costs money to do a research project. And then their goal will be to research moms in prison and what we can do better to make their lives better and to reunite them with their children better. So it's like a total full circle. It's like total work. I'm super excited. So if anybody has a book club, it's a really good book club book because it really brings conversation around things that most people don't think about. Like, you know, what do we do? Where are those kids? What happens to those kids when their moms are in prison? And what can we do to welcome them back in the communities? And like, I intentionally recruit formerly incarcerated people to work in my law firm because they need jobs. And so all those different things come together. And so those are things that are really good book club conversations. So anyway, we're doing a research project based on the book. I'm probably going to get ready to start writing another book. I think Camille's going to stay in the criminal legal system, probably on some sort of domestic violence type story. Start raising up, because, you know, there's a bunch of women in prison because of, you know, being victims of domestic violence and making bad choices on that. So I don't know if they're bad choices. They're just the only choice they had to make. There you go. That's it. The only choice. That's very good. Very good. Anyway, so what's next is more book clubs, more ordinary people reading and opening their hearts to something that they might not have thought about before and research. Oh, that sounds great. Well, that is audience. You heard that. If you are interested in the book, you know, please reach out. You just heard from Amanda DuBois, a woman unafraid to challenge the system and speak truth through every sentence she writes. Her new book, Unshackle, is more than fiction. It's a message to anyone who's ever been silenced or overlooked. If today's conversation hit home for you, don't just sit in that feeling. Go get the book. Share this episode and follow Amanda's journey. Visit AmandaDuBois.com and connect with her on TikTok, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Okay? And this episode will be on next week, Wednesday, so you don't miss it. All right? The next time, stay strong, speak truth, and always keep it real, all on purpose. This is your host, Edna White, and my esteemed guest, Amanda DuBois, saying goodbye for now. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Eden Sher. And I'm Brock Charlele. We played best friends on The Middle. And became best friends in real life. We're here to rewatch The Middle with all of you. Each week, we'll recap an episode with behind-the-scenes stories, guest interviews, and what we think now, many years later. There's a lot to dive into, so let's get to middling. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. Let your pain be the spark. We rise together, igniting the dark. Edna!