H1B Program Helps US as Much as Visa Recipients: Immigration Analyst

Treasury Secretary Scott Besson says President Trump's plan for visas is to temporarily bring in expert overseas workers to train Americans. Then they go home and the US workers fully take over. Joining us to discuss is Daniel Demartino, Manhattan Institute fellow and founder of the Dissident Project. So Daniel, uh, good afternoon to you. How are you doing today? >> Very good. Thanks for having me. >> All right. So Daniel, before we get your thoughts, uh I just wanted to play this clip of President Trump uh saying the US doesn't have people with certain talents to fill jobs domestically. Take a look. >> You don't have certain talents and you have to people have to learn. You can't take people off an unemploy like an unemployment line and say, "I'm going to put you into a factory or we're going to make missiles or I'm going to put >> How do we ever do it before?" >> Well, let me I'll give you an example. In Georgia, they raided because they wanted illegal immigrants out. >> They had people from from South Korea that made batteries all their lives. You know, making batteries are very complicated. It's not a easy thing and very dangerous. A lot of explosions, a lot of problems. They had like five or six hundred people >> early stages to make batteries and to teach people how to do it. Now, Daniel, I understand you're mostly in favor uh of continuing the H-1B visa program. So, could you explain for us why you believe the US needs foreign talent? >> Well, I think uh smart people are a good thing for any society really. And in the case of the United States, the H-1B visa program, even though it's a flawed program that does need some reform, it is the only uh you know relevant high-skilled visa channel for a lot of young uh intelligent people coming out of American colleges or that US companies want to bring in order to start a startup especially in the tech sector especially even doctors in hospitals, researchers. So that is why and I I think President Trump is exactly right that America benefits from these. It's not that America needs anything. America doesn't need anything. The question is what's beneficial for American workers and it is beneficial to bring in people who speak English, who are going to earn high pay and who are not going to commit crime. That is the ideal type of immigrant. >> So Daniel, you're very much an expert in this topic. So could you address a few of the criticisms of the visa program? So one of them is uh does it or does it not take job opportunities away from Americans? >> Yeah. So when when we think about the impact of immigration in the labor market, uh when you bring in people from another country, not only does the number of jobs grow, but also the number of opportunities for American workers. This is a great example. When you bring in foreign doctors, we're not saying that we're going to steal the jobs or of American doctors. We have a huge doctor shortage. There are hundreds of counties in this country that don't have a primary care physician. So, you're actually saving lives by bringing in foreign talent or allowing companies to do it. You encourage them to set up shop here, like President Trump mentioned, a South Korean company that makes batteries. If they're not allowed to bring foreign talent, they just open in Canada, they open in China, they open in another country, and then not only do they bring their foreign talent, but they hire their supporting workforce from that nation there. Right? When you open a battery factory here that needs say 10% of workers that are foreign, you also bring in the 90% of workers that are American that are now able to work thanks to that partnership. >> So Daniel, if we're bringing in foreign workers, you know, sometimes they get paid less, does it or does it not drive down wages for domestic workers? >> Well, I think let's let's set the facts straight here. Uh the median H-1B visa holder makes $120,000 a year. That is not a low wage job. Now, could it be higher? Yes. The current problem is that there is much more demand for this visa than number of visas available. Only 85,000 for for-profit companies a year. And so the US government unfortunately awards them to the hundreds of thousands of companies that want them by lottery. And this is what allows the abuse. So what we need to do in this case is simply say we're going to award them to to the 85,000 highest paid spots which would actually make the minimum salary around 120,000 and the average salary at over 200,000. >> Just a few more uh if you could address could there be national security concerns you know relying on foreign talent uh could it discourage Americans from pursuing highskll careers? Well, I actually see it as a national security gain that the United States is stealing the intelligent people from other countries. What is the most effective strategy to ensure that America stays at the top of the world? Brain drain our enemies and even our other countries that are not our enemies, right? Because that prevents them from ever being able to overcome us technologically in many other ways. So that is a a loss for China, a loss for India, a loss for other countries and a win for America. And on the, you know, a lot of people talk about espionage, things like that. Look, the reality is that countries that want to spy on the United States, they can bring in people through marriage. They can bring in people fraudulently. They can bribe American citizens, which they do often. uh that this visa program actually is something that China opposes because they're worried that many of their young highly intelligent people will come to America through it. So you mentioned China, right? So let's talk about that. Um it's obvious that the US wants to remain the world's superpower, right? And it's currently in competition with China. So would you say could the abolishing or downsizing the H-1B visa program negatively impact the US in this context? Absolutely. You know, China has a program called the 10,000 talents program in which they pay their graduate students abroad over $100,000 to come back to China and work. They don't want Chinese immigrants who are college educated to leave China. They want them to go back. And so America doesn't need to pay them. America just needs to let them stay. And the sad reality is that even though the the H1 program is flawed, it is the only way for most of these people to stay after they complete their studies here. So yes, vet people like Trump is doing. He's even vetting their social media when they're coming here. That is a great thing. But if they're not a communist and they're not a spy and they're intelligent, those are people who should be welcome. So Daniel, you mentioned a couple of times that there may be problems with this program. You know, there have been reports that some companies have been abusing this, paying workers less and then, you know, not actually using this program to fill talent, but to use it to cut costs for their own company. So what are some solutions that you see that could, you know, reform or make this program better? Well, well, the one solution that I think has a very much bipartisan support is that you need to stop awarding the visas on a random lottery, but instead give them to the highest paid applicants, no matter their profession. If they're all in healthcare, their own technology, the point is that they have to be the highest paid professional. You kind of have a $60,000 a year uh interior designer uh preferred over a $200,000 a year coder, right? You you need to go by economic value. And then after that you do that companies are going to be able to bring in people without uh the fraud that is happening now. What is happening now is that a lot of companies are bringing in jobs that you know are middle wage jobs not low wage but certainly middle wage and that is really a waste of opportunity for America because there's only 85,000 visa spots. You would rather bring in people who are more highly paid. Look, my own research finds that even on the status quo, the average H-1B visa holder will reduce America's national debt by over $2 million over 30 years. Because these are immigrants who pay a lot in taxes because they're highly paid and because they don't receive any welfare. So, this is a really big win for America and that's why President Trump, I'm happy to hear that he supports it. So, since we're on the topic of potential solutions, how do you view the new $100,000 fee imposed on the H-1B visa? >> Well, the the issue with the $100,000 fee is that it's not really binding or very effective uh at achieving what it wants to do. Neither is the proposed rule for wage selection that the Trump administration drafted. And and let me explain this in shortly. What happens with the $100,000 fee is that it can be really easily evaded by the uh bad actors which are these Indian uh third-party placement companies that bring in people will now do so through a internal transfer visa called the L1 and then change them to H1B. And so the the problem with those firms is that they're not actually allowing people to hire workers, but they're just hiring them and then placing them temporarily in low lower wage positions in different other companies. They're third party places. And then the issue with the rule that Department of Labor is proposing is that it's prioritizing petitions based on their wage on their occupation. So you're prioritizing say a $60,000 a year interior designer over the case I mentioned a $200,000 a year coder because a $60,000 wage for interior designers is more impressive than 200k among coders. This doesn't make any sense. We prefer a $200,000 a year offer over a over a lower one. Uh and so we need pure weight selection. We don't need these occupational adjustments because then these unethical firms will simply change the name of the occupation to get better odds of getting the visa. All right, Daniel, uh you've been very clear in your explanation of the H1B visa program. I just have one last question for you to end this interview. Um more broadly speaking, what would be the impact, whether it's economic or anything else, of just simply ending the H-1B visa program? Well, I estimated this exact question. Uh, so I'm glad you asked. You know, in my new paper that came out with the Manhattan Institute, if we eliminated the H-1B visa program, America would lose approximately well over a trillion dollars over 30 years uh in net tax revenue and minor spending. So, we would be in debt a trillion more dollars over 30 years or GDP would go down by a couple percentage points. Uh, and people might say, "Well, America isn't just GDP." You're right. America isn't just GDP. America is a nation. America is uh the the home of its citizens. But Americans eat what they earn. And we should not be lightly saying that we do not care about GDP or the national debt because that is the reason driving young people to vote for socialism. That is the reason driving Americans out of home ownership, out of so many things. We want policies that prioritize the well-being, the economic well-being of American workers, and the H1B visa does just that. Well, all right, Daniel, terrific insight today. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you.