Michael Lewis on the Civil Servants Who Stood up to Doge | the Daily Show

You have become, if I may say so, enamored with the people that make up our, the anonymous heroes who on a day-to-day basis are working tirelessly to make this. How did the country function better, work better? How did that come about? The civil servants. The civil servants. Which is different from what's on cable news right now, right? It's all politics. Yes. And those people are being elected to run the government, filled with the civil servants. That's right. And mostly they don't know about the government. And that's what got me interested. It came about when Trump, the first time Trump was elected. And he fired his transition team right after he was elected. It was like 550 people who were supposed to go in and learn about the government for him. And I thought... He doesn't know anything about it. It's like the dog caught the bus. Now the dog has to drive the bus. Right. And you would think the dog would want the instruction manual. And when he fired this mechanism, I thought, it's kind of cool. I can go in and my readers will know more about what he's supposed to be running than he does. And so that, like, you will know about the Department of Energy. Right. And when I did that, when I got in, I was shocked. By the quality of the people I kept meeting, I was like, there is the stereotype of the lazy bureaucrat. You know, I'm sure they exist. There are 2 million people in there. But over and over. 2 million. I mean, 2 million federal workers, right? Wow. And over and over, I found these people who were, like, working 70-hour weeks and being paid 40 and were doing wild stuff. I mean, everything from, like, chasing loose nukes to, like, Inventing science, whole sciences to, it was one thing after another. To inventing the science to find people that fall off of boats. Right. It was insane. You know, it's one thing after another. And much of what they did as a group. Yes. They're sort of constitutionally incapable of telling their story. They, like, don't know. They're the opposite of Trump. They don't know how to, like, advertise what they do. And they're not allowed to. So it was... They can't name their desk after themselves? They can't do any of that? No, no, no. They can't. So they are... Interesting. They are... They just assume now at this point that if they're getting noticed... It's for a bad reason. Right. Like it's, it's, we have, we have, they're so demoralized that way. Do they feel the demonization? Is that? They know, they know, they know not to call attention to themselves. So the great challenge with them. Right. When you're with them is to get them, you know, they're like dogs that have been kicked a little too often. Like you just to calm them down. Right. They will tell their story. But when you get into it, I mean, the reason I've stuck around is that they are amazing characters. And when This administration came in and set out to traumatize them. The new Trump administration in 2024, he went about it differently this time. This book is much more about the hostile takeover. This is more about Doge. It's Doge and Doge Plus, other stuff. And it's sort of like asking... The reader to understand what's going on by what they've driven out. Like it's sort of like a meteor hit the planet and the habitats have changed and some species no longer exist. They can't. And each species that went extinct, went extinct for a different reason. Right. And these were these are different sort of different people in different functions of the government who used to do things like, I don't know, stop your tax returns from being weaponized against you. You know, this stuff that we just take for granted. Is all of a sudden, no. It's like part of a big power grab. They have essentially, they're trying to politicize a nonpartisan workforce. And that's going to result in a very different kind of government. I mean, when you like. Would you rather have your air traffic controller... I love this game. Go ahead. Yes. Would you rather have this person selected on the basis of their ability to actually land a plane safely, or would you rather them have to go through a loyalty test to Donald Trump before they get the job? You know me, I'm a woke liberal. I'd just rather they all be lesbians. That's the answer. Yeah. I don't care about the ability. It's like one thing after another. It was amazing. What I found so fascinating about this, maybe the story of the Institute of Peace will be revelatory, it's a hostile takeover. It reads like somebody stormed, a foreign power stormed an embassy on the people who work for them in the government. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, it's, it's, it's, it's strange to me. I mean, I think it's just that they were able to do this. And now I both both damage and the and the sort of like the seizure of power. Thank The only reason it's been allowed is that I think people just haven't paid much attention you so to what the government does and how it functions. Right. But this, I mean, the difference between much for Donald Trump 2 and Donald Trump 1, Donald Trump 2, he didn't care. Like, he was indifferent, ignorant. joining Well, they came with a battle plan. And this time, he wants to run not just the government he's supposed to run. Right. He's grabbing all kinds of stuff that he's not supposed to run. us today. I mean, there are all these that's missing in the Institute of Peace. Right. I mean, had you ever heard of the Institute of Peace? I did not know that we were even looking towards that. Yes. Yes. It is. It is now called the Donald J. Trump Institute of Peace. But it was there's a guy in there. It's a crazy story. He he evacuates the building and he locks himself in the building to keep. The Doge guys, from getting the keys, close. Can I correct you? Yes. Close. You're close. Thank you. So, yeah, you're very close. The security guard, that story is told through the eyes of the security guard who is defending the building. That's right, yeah. And he has a phone, and he can lock down various parts of the building. Yes. And when Doge actually blackmails his private security firm and turns them... So that they're invading the building rather than protecting it? Yes. They all end up in a wing of the building, and he hits a button, and all of a sudden it's home alone. They're locked in. Right. And they're calling their moms and saying, we're locked in, can you come help? And they're calling their bosses, and eventually, the hero. He calls the D.C. police because he thinks we've got the building, by the way, is not a government building. It's like it's your house. It's privately. It's a private. It's a nonprofit. Right. Own the building. So Doge is invading in a private house and taking it. And it's not particularly part of the government. No, no, it's not part of the government. I mean, it's Congress. Look, it gets funding from Congress, but it was designed to be kept at arm's length from political control. Right. And so so he calls the D.C. police. Come get the trespassers. Come get the invaders. And the invaders, by the way, are like three 20-year-olds. Muskrats. Muskrats. Yes. In like little black ties that just want to get in there and turn it upside down. Sneakers. Right. Sneakers and little black t-shirts. But the D.C. police, they've been flipped. And so when they come, they march the security guy out. So I opened with that because the security guy pointed out, he said, you know, this all starts by them getting control of all the guns. That it didn't look like there was, no one fired a shot. It didn't look like a violent thing. By the way, there are guns in the basement of the Institute of Peace. A little, like, not the basement, but they've got a cache of guns in the Institute of Peace for some reason. Yeah. Well, the security firm keeps them there. The reason they keep them there is this is against the law in D.C. to take your gun home from work. So they have to leave them behind. That's actually why they're there. Really? Who knew? But, uh... You're not leaving with your gun, are you, Bill? No, I left it in the thing. I don't know anything. But... . But it is, when you do take this two million person workforce . . . . and you say all of a sudden . . you don't work for, it's not an oath to the Constitution. . . . It's not you work for the country. . . You work for this person who's in the White House. . . Right. It changes the way the whole government works. . . Everything is different. . . And each function is different in a different way. . . . But the change is like profound. . . And you will, you know, you will feel it. . . . You'll feel like a degradation of the place. Well, you make the unbelievable. Part of this is also, you know, it's Project 2025 and it's, which is the architect of that is this guy, Russell vote, vote. I call him Vought from The Boys, but Vought. So you tell this incredible story about the NIH and a gentleman at the NIH, Francis Collins, used to run the NIH, used to run the NIH, who is identified as a blocker. They identify people that are blocking progress. Right. Francis Collins. Yeah. Explain how that all comes full circle with Project 2025 and Russell. So Francis Collins is a threat to this new administration because he is. Every senator respects him. I mean, he can speak for science. And he has been there forever. He's been there forever. One of those people that they kind of try to do things to the science, he can go talk to people. Right. So when they come in, he's just got his lab. He doesn't have any official authority. And they whack him right away. It's like a bullet to the back of the head. And the kind of cool thing about the story, though it's distressing, is that though he knows he's been whacked, he doesn't know who did the whacking. He doesn't know who issued the order. And so he, it is a kind of murder mystery. Right. He wants to find out. He wants to find out. But what you need to know about Francis Collins is that among the many things that he has done in his career, early in his career, he found the genetic cause for cystic fibrosis. Through government funding? Of course. Yes. Of course. The NIH has been returned, like, many dollars for every dollar invested, and it's cured diseases and all the rest. The chief suspect, the most likely person to have whacked Francis Collins is Russell Vought. But tell me, tell me the story. Let me finish. I was going to tell you. Let me finish. Russell Vought's child has cystic fibrosis. That's right. So you have, we have reached a point in our politics where there is no humanity. where it's so tribal that that they don't even think and it is this this kind of darkness runs right through the story that the people who are getting whacked in the book are often people the people who are doing and the people doing the whacking they have some relationship but it's not being acknowledged and it's even worse than that in some respect because the research that he began with cystic fibrosis and then they brought in other partners they actually created A drug treatment. Recently, that allows people with cystic fibrosis to take this drug that Francis Collins, through this government research, helped develop. She takes this drug and her life is safe. Yeah, that's right. From that drug. Yeah. If she had gotten cystic fibrosis. Born 10 years earlier, she would probably not be here. It would, it's, you know, you're going to, you're likely to die from cystic fibrosis up until very recently. And, and so that's right. So the man who, who triggered the process that leads to the cure, to the disease that this other man's child has is, yes, that's the, that's the relationship. And so it's... I mean, I think we're in a very dark place, right? We're in a place where you kind of, it's. The people under assault, the really good ones, are the best among us. They are there not for themselves. They're not there to get famous. They don't tell their story. They don't get paid much. They're there because they figured out that the key to their lives is serving other people. And the best of them do it very, very well. The idea that these people are under assault is a shame. I mean, and I think that that astonishing and I think one of the things you're feeling right now Is that I mean, the that they're the darkness of of people not knowing, not being able to name who the real villains are villainizing people that are literally searching for cures that your daughter may have are being called the villains and the parasites in the name of one thing is the acquisition of power. It's like, it's all about the power. And you know, there's this line in 1984, Orwell's book. Where he says, like, how do I know if I have power? And it isn't that I can make you do whatever I want you to do, because you might want to do it anyway. It's I can make you suffer. And the cruelty that runs right through this story is that it's like it's reminding the people in power that it's a kind of psychological thing, the need to feel powerful. He's even said, I mean, Stephen Miller has said we're not doing it like might makes right, like a literal throwback to you remember all those ways that government used to work back when there were world wars and back when the continent was a bloody mess. We're going back to that. Yeah. What an incredible, you know, from we're a shining city on a hill moving towards American exceptionalism to, hey, you remember feudalism? Yeah, no, I know. And it takes a while for the country to wake up, I think. But I think the country's waking up. Oh, it's like I hope so. Yeah, because this is not this is not a bright future. This path. Have you interviewed? Is there any recognition amongst those like Russell? Vaught or I mean, some of the Doge guys have apparently had a reconsideration of what they were doing there. First of all, they said we're saving two trillion dollars. Then it turned out they said they saved 10 percent of that. Turns out most of that's even bullshit. You know, they didn't even do the thing they said they were going to do. They were never going to do the thing they said they were going to do. Because it wasn't about that. It wasn't about that. It was about traumatizing the workforce. It was about creating a smoke screen for seizing the power. Russell Vought said it. He said, I want them to feel like they're parasites. He said that. Yeah. So the wild thing about the Doge kids, I mean, the active ingredient in Doge was young men ages 19 to like 28. That the ones, most of them came in, they just wanted to be with Elon Musk. And they would just do whatever he said. Right. But there were a couple who actually started to ask some questions. And it was interesting, those people. Because that. One of them ends up in the book. He comes in with curiosity, not with contempt. And he's the, I think he's the only one who got fired. His name was Sahil. Right. He came in with curiosity and not contempt. But they were like, get out! Do you know how hard it was to get fired from Doge? You could make up the college you went to on your resume. You could be a Nazi. What? No, you could have like a history of sexual abuse reveal. And J.D. Vance himself would ride to the rescue. But if you. You said, and this guy did, a reporter called him after he'd been in the government for a few weeks, and he says to the reporter, Thank I'm kind of surprised the government is not quite as inefficient as I thought it was. That's what you couldn't say. No. You couldn't. Yes. That's the thing. That's the line. You can't. And Hitler was right. Youthful indiscretion. Yes. Right. Government seems to work OK. Get out. A lot of these people like their jobs and are good at them. He said things like that and got in a lot of trouble. you. So but that guy, he's a great character, actually. That guy came in hoping to do some good. And when Doge washed out, someone called him back and he came back. And, uh, and you have an app on your phone that will allow you to do your taxes on an app because it's going to happen because of him. And so he has actually figured out something. So there's, isn't that the tragedy that so. When you think about, look, one of the reasons why Project 2025 happened is people were dissatisfied that the government was no longer reflecting and triaging their more immediate needs. And there is ridiculous cascading plumbing and wires in there that need to be addressed. Some of these people seem to have the skills. What a tragedy that they weren't actually applying that. To the real function of it. Yeah, that's right. There is a need to go in and refresh the thing. There's a constant need. What is hopeful is that there are people who exist who want to go in and still fix it. I mean, I don't think I didn't I didn't come away from this feeling like, oh, we're doomed. I came away feeling like it's good to know that actually the spirit of the country is in these people, these people who try to stop the bad things from happening and people who want to go in and fix it. And I think like the politics, our politics has gotten so out of touch with the culture. Like Americans aren't like our politics, basically. Right. And the minute it becomes enough attention gets paid to this. I think that it gets fixed. I think that there is a way out of this. But you've got to listen to the right people. I mean, and you've got to listen to people who are there for reasons other than just themselves. It's so impressive that you're able to stare into the guts of this and come out with optimism. You know, I hear from a lot of young people, one young person. Thank He's in the audience tonight. And he said, how do you remain optimistic? And I said, I don't know, but I bet Michael does. you And that answers that is you've seen the power very of and that's what this kid's going to be like there. They haven't been corroded yet. They still believe in the possibility of uplift. much. That's right. And look. We are not, our politics is so strange now, but we're a nation of problem solvers, we're philanthropic, communities form very easily. People don't want to be, the noise on TV is not sustainable. Thank you very much. The minute this thing, and you're feeling it, the minute this mechanism, the government, starts to become really politicized, become something very different from what it's been for a hundred years, you're going to feel it every which way. You're not going to be able to eat the food. You're not going to be able to drink the water. You're not going to want to get on an airplane. People right now say they don't trust the government, but they trust the government in their behavior. They own treasury bonds. They are still basically trusting the government to prevent bad things from happening. And in a minute, they sense that. That's being eroded. That function is being eroded. I mean, I think there's a there's a culture waiting to leap into action. That's right. And hopefully there is an electoral price. There's two things that have to happen. There have to be an electoral price to pay for this kind of recklessness and cruelty. And the second thing is, if you are fortunate enough to be on the beneficial end of that electoral change, you better get your ---- together and start governing. That's right. I think the other thing that's going on, and it's subtle, is there's a kind of narrative war. Like, Republicans have been telling a story for a very long time that all the people in government are just, like, unnecessary. Waste, fraud, abuse, all that stuff. The other story has not been told. And I think that telling that story, like making a point of explaining what this government does, is so important. Someone should do that. Someone should put it in a book. It's fabulous. It really is. And I so appreciate it. I urge you to get it. Our best storyteller, Michael Lewis.