Unveiling Crucial Dive Safety Insights; Gareth Lock Shares Tips

All right, welcome back to part two with Gareth Locke, the human diver. Amazing. Now, if you haven't caught part one of this interview, you have missed out and you need to go back and watch part one of this because Gareth Locke is, he's a treasure trove of amazing safety information for diving. I've just been, I will be honest, I, in part one, I took four pages of notes that I'm going to personally implement into my diving schedule as well. Again, my name is Benjamin Hadfield. You're with Teach Me To Dive. Gareth Locke, thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Brilliant. Thanks for being, for inviting me back for part two. Absolutely love it. Looking forward to this. And the fact that you've got those more notes, I'm going to add some more to that. Well, you are, I'm just going to, you ask me questions and I'll tell you stuff. I've got my pen. I've got my paper. I am set. So Gareth, let's just jump into the deep end of the pool if they will. And so how does your training approach adapt to cater to divers of varying skills and different certifications and different backgrounds? Right. So I recently took some coaching. So I, you know, I'm about getting better as well. It's this, I've got a coach and they said, well, what do you do? And we basically came up with these sort of three words of explore, discover and learn. And so the sort of the exploration and discovery piece is actually giving people in the online program and self-paced learning. It's about discovering new topics, about understanding the role of human factors in performance and safety. My view is about if you can develop a high performance individual or high performance team, then safety comes as a by-product. Safety is an outcome. You can't create safety in of itself. Safety is the absence of harm. It's the absence of bad things. Well, how do you create the absence of something? What you've got to do is create something that leads to an absence. And that's what this sort of human factors and system thinking safety is about. So the online programs are about giving people basic insights into the topic. And there's a self-paced essentials class, which is three and a half, four hours. Then we move up into a longer program, which is 10 weeks, an hour and a half each week with some homework. And that's a live webinar of 60 minutes talking and then 30 minutes of discussion. So we break them down into three 20-minute chunks and three 10-minute chunks of the discussions. And that's for people who want to dig a little bit deeper. It's also part of the instructor development, knowledge development process I have for the instructors I've got. And then the face-to-face programs are all about operating a novel computer-based simulation. It's nothing to do with diving. And in fact, the last two days, I've been working with a media production company, 12 people in the class, and there are only three divers. And I said, look, people are people. It's just the stories that change, how we interact with the world, how we interact with other people, how we deal with stress, how we deal with assumptions and ambiguity. It's the same in the diving space. And so the classes are very much about holding a mirror up to people and getting them to discover the answers themselves. So there's a bit of guided discovery happens. And we do that for a couple of reasons. One is they now own it. So they've found the answer. And so instead of me telling them what the answer is, they have to work hard. And because they're working hard, it's likely to be stickier. And then we actually then have follow-ups with the goals that they set at the end of the class. So we've got coaching emails that go out. So in terms of who's it for, I've had open water divers through to course directors and instructor trainers in the same program. I've had divers, non-divers in the same program, because actually it's not about diving. It's about that framework that I talked about in the first session, where ultimately we're trying to make the best decisions by collecting information, making sense of it, situation awareness, through communications, effective communication, closed loop communications, and how to operate as a team made up of leaders and followers, and creating a psychologically safe environment where people can ask questions that they aren't quite sure about something. And they sit there going, is that right? Is that what we're supposed to be doing? And they don't feel stupid or scared for doing so. And the fact that it doesn't apply to any particular class of diver makes it quite difficult to market. And that's one of the things that's come out through the coaching is the ideal clients that come into the human diver programs are those who want to learn and grow. They can be open water divers, cave divers, rebreather, trimix instructors, or they could be course directors. It doesn't matter. What is the common theme is they want to develop themselves, and they're quite happy to put themselves out there, make mistakes, and learn in the process, and then take those tools and then apply them into their own diving. I love that. And one of the big things I actually took out of that was that you have a coach too. So here, you're the safety guru. You wrote the book, literally. You have the podcast about safety, literally, and you have a coach as well. So you're constantly looking for that next level. How important has that coach been to you? Absolutely. Really, really. And it's somebody to hold me accountable to the plans that I've got. This morning, from the two weeks I've been away, I've been collecting thoughts in my daily journals, capturing those. And I've created a to-do list with like 95 to-dos on it. And it's just like, so I'm going to go and chat with Claire next week. I'll go through, this is where I'm going. And I have three streams that run at the moment. One is Human Diver as a company, developing that, getting it out there. I've got 11 instructors trained. I've got three more, four more on the books. So I'm developing those four instructors. And then I've got non-diving stuff as well. So I've got these paths that I've got read across between them, because the stuff that I do in the non-diving space is the same as I do in the diving. And that's one of the really cool things. Most divers are not full-time divers. They've got daytime jobs. And so they come on the class and you go, you know what? I could probably use as much in this class in my business, my daytime job as I can while I go diving. It's like, fine, go for it. And that's, to me, the feedback from the coach critical, but it's also getting feedback from my team. So I'll come up with an idea and they go, Gareth, that's not going to work. Why? Because you need to dumb the knowledge down. You need to bring the knowledge down. You are up here when it comes to stuff. You need to really simplify it. And so on that, Jenny Lord, who I was teaching with the last couple of days, based in Egypt, she wrote the first series of dummies articles. And it was about human factors for dummies. And we talked about psychological safety and just culture and human error and all these. And what was really interesting, people came back and went, that's quite derogatory calling us dummies. There's a whole series of books out there about dummies for stock market work or brain surgery or whatever it is. This is about trying to get it out there in a manner that is easily digestible because it is a new topic. Even instructors who come into this space, who want to become instructed to human diver, don't realize there's about five months plus 150 hours. So five months time duration for it and about 150 hours of work required to be able to teach a two-day class. And it's like, that's a lot. That's way more than a course director would train up an instructor in terms of their exam and their instructor exam. And they can go off and teach a whole bunch of diving courses, but you've already got core knowledge or should have core knowledge about how to dive, about gas laws, about pressure, about decompression, about propulsion and buoyancy. Whereas people come into the programs, they've got to learn stuff almost from scratch. So there's a huge level of development that's there. And for me, I need to break that down. And that's the feedback that I've had from my team as well, is you're making an assumption about what people know because you've got this much stuff and they don't. Which is humbling and it's good. Absolutely. I would imagine one of the biggest challenges for divers, especially when you start getting into more advanced divers, is breaking down the ego and moving past that, that, oh, this is something I do need to know. Yes. And that's the other advantage of holding a mirror up. So the debrief structure that I talked about of what do we need, what did we do well and why, what do we need to improve and how are we going to do it? When we run through the training sessions and the face-to-face programs, what we do is we expand that. So the team, what happens is you've got a team of six, one observer, so people can see what's going on. So they learn how to observe and they learn how to provide feedback. We have a commander in the spacecraft and then we have four crew members. So the five operational crew have a debrief that basically says, what did I do well and why? What do I need to improve on and how am I going to do it? And they write it down in their course notes. And then what did the team do well and why? And what did the team need to improve on and how are they going to do it? And then we go around the team and we basically talk about this stuff and we hold the mirror up and there's no real ego because everybody's flying this for the first time. Nobody can bring any prior knowledge. And what happens is when the ego does come to the fore, it becomes really obvious. And the team then hold the mirror up to those individuals and they go, yeah, okay, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was, but actually it doesn't matter because they're learning about themselves. It's that bit about explore, discovery, and learn. Getting those people on the class is a challenge, but once they're in the class, then they recognize the real value in it. That is absolutely so true. So as we kind of break into these accidents and we kind of, we go through and we study the pathology of it, can you break down the kind of the pathology of an accident that you've read recently that we wouldn't have probably maybe noticed or seen if we just looked at just the accident itself? Yeah, I suppose the easiest one is the documentary that I put together, If Only, and the simple answer or the simple cause of the accident was the diver had turned their oxygen cylinder on their rebreather off. They got onto their breathing loop, jumped off the back of the boat and went hypoxic on the surface and sank when their loop was lost. And it would be really quite easy to turn around and say they didn't follow their checklist. And so then the oxygen was still turned off. When we start to look through the documentary, you start to realize that actually the failures that happened started a number of years beforehand. Their first discover scuba diver on Hawaii where they were, they got off the back of the boat. They had their instructor and there was Brian and Ashley as a couple. And Brian was the one that died. And then another couple on the boat. So they got down to depth with the instructor and the other two were still up on the surface. So the instructor left these two divers on the bottom doing their DSD while he went up, sorted them out and they reckon they were down there for 10 minutes on their own. Instructor comes down, bring them up. So they were just sitting there going, oh, this is cool. Completely oblivious to the risk. They then go down to Mexico to dive in the cenotes. They do their open water class running up to new year and they book some cenote dives straight after their open water dive. And so their instructor takes them into, or their guide, and it was the same person, takes them into Dos Rojos cenote, which is not suitable for open water divers. But their guide says, well, I saw you on the class. You're fine. We don't normally take people in on this sort of your level of certification, but it'll be okay. And off we go. Again, completely oblivious to the risks that are there. And so over time, the scenarios developed, and you can see in the last week, two weeks, there's a whole bunch of pressures involved about trying to get this class done. And so it's really important to look beyond what we talk about the proximal causes in time and space that they went hypoxic. Yeah, well, make sure your gas is turned on. Make sure you follow a checklist. But actually, they didn't have a team ethos within that environment to cross-check each other. There was a lot of pressure, social pressure to get this task done. So there isn't really any, I'm going to say, yeah, there is no effective accident investigation process that happens in sports diving industry. The industry is focused on litigation. And so the way that an event is investigated is often around pinning blame on somebody. And if you're going to be involved in any adverse event, your lawyers are going to say, don't say anything or say the absolute minimum. And the problem is that seriously limits learning because the same things that led to the event that are potentially the workarounds, the deviations, they're not following the standards, which are normal, they're out there. Those same things would be used as blameworthy events during a trial. And so we don't find them out. And that's why near misses are way more important than fatalities. But either way, it's actually about making sense. And I think it's probably about three weeks ago, four weeks ago, I published something called a learning review guide for diving. And that was all about sensemaking, getting people together to understand what the context and what the influential factors were that led to the event, and then start to categorize those and then build learning products around them. That's huge. Absolutely. And I think that's the biggest thing we miss is we look at the dive accident itself. We say, okay, if they had only done this, this and this, but that's not the real story. That's talking about the tale of the dog again. We need to talk about what led us to build that portion and what the near misses were, like you said earlier in our previous interview. What did we learn wrong to start with? And how can we correct that? What can we do from the instructor level down? How can we start them off with a good foundation and a good footing? So Gareth, what is the biggest misconception about dive safety right now? What's the biggest misconception out there? Following the rules will keep you safe. And it could come across as a bit of a trite statement from that side, but there's a difference between litigation safety and operational safety. And last year in Portugal, I gave a presentation at diving talks and it's titled compliance provides an illusion of safety in diving. And so there's a 15 minute video on the diving talks, YouTube channel. And there's also a blog on the GUE's in-depth magazine, just talking all about this and the gaps between what's written down and what actually gets done and then what people will talk about. So the difference between work is imagined. Those are the standards that are written down by the training agencies or the dive centers that says, this is what you are to do. And then they get handed over to the instructors, the dive centers, whoever to execute them. They pick it up and go, that's not necessarily how it's going to work for whatever reason that's there. And then they got to make do. They've got time pressures. They've got to have, clients will come in and say, I've got three days to do this class because I'm now off on something else. And there's not enough slack built into the system. So the instructors will go out and they'll do the best they can with the skills they've got, the resources they've got, and they'll produce the goods. The divers are certified as masters of the skills and off they go. Now, if you go and ask that diving instructor what he actually did, depending on the agency that they teach for and the culture that's there, or I taught them by the standards, I taught them by the rules. I ticked all the boxes and they were all done. And you sit there and go, well, I know that that can't happen, but how am I to challenge you? But if you've got a learning culture within your dive center or your dive organization, your training organization, and you ask them, okay, how did you go about teaching that class? What was difficult, dumb or dangerous about it? What was different? What did you learn from it? Then you get something called work as disclosed. And that's different to work as done. And risk exists within an organization between work as imagined, what's written down, work as done, what people really do, and then work as disclosed telling you what actually happens. Because when the proverbial hits the fan, you'll be marked against work as imagined, even though everybody knows work as done isn't the same. And as an example for one of the organizations, for their entry level resort type course, you can take four students with you on one of these dives. Absolute beginners, you've just done a little pool bit of pool work. Now you can take four divers with you in the open water, but you've got to have direct control of those four divers. Well, how do I have direct control of four divers when I have two hands? And if one of those divers bolts to the surface, now what do I do? Because there's three down here, there's one up there, now I'm breach of another standard because now they're separated. And so organizationally, you're setting people up for failure, but because people don't talk about these near misses and the human body is pretty resilient, so it might be that somebody has a rapid ascent and they feel terrible, and they're never going to go back to diving again, they don't end up in hospital and it doesn't end up as a reportable event, and we never know it happened. So that would be my sort of view of where safety is created all the time. If safety was about following rules, we'd have way more accidents than we do, because people break rules all the time, because you can't follow them all the time in an activity that's very discretionary in terms of what we do in terms of managing risk. And that goes against the sort of messaging that's within the diving industry is follow your standard, plan the dive, dive the plan. It's about actually, we have to teach people to operate in that uncertainty space, and that requires a little bit more than just following a set process. There we go, I've got my soapbox now. No, you're fantastic. So as we kind of look at the WRSTC and the RSTC, we realize that just by what you just said, that an open water standard says that one instructor to eight students. Is that setting up all the instructors out there for complete failure? Well, and herein lies the issue that we measure safety by its absence. So you could say that one, eight to one ratio is safe because I don't have any adverse events. You could say it's actually pretty risky because you don't know how much capacity you have. So if you eight to one, and two of those students bolt, now what are you going to do? Now I've got to manage multiple scenarios. So there's a great quote from a colleague of mine, a guy called Todd Conklin, and he talks about safety is not just the absence of accidents and incidents, rather it is the presence of barriers and defenses and the capacity of the system to fail safely. So how do you create an environment that basically says, we'll try and reduce the likelihood of something going wrong, separation, running out of gas, equipment failure, whatever it is, through training, equipment design, certification processes, would drive the probability as close to zero as possible. But we've got these pesky humans that get in the way. They're just unreliable. They're variable in their performance. They're not perfect. So we're never going to get to zero. So let's assume the probability is one. Now what are you going to do? So how do we go this side, the accidents happened or the events happened, how do we go this side, so afterwards, and prevent a fatality or a major loss of equipment or life? And so we've got to in the process safety world, we talk about bow ties. What are the controls and what are the mitigations? So left of bang and right of bang, as the police would describe it in terms of an incident. And we talk about rescue. We'll talk about oxygen sets. And then you say, okay, so when was the last time you practiced a rescue? When was the last time you went out and did a full-on activity? And I know a number of years ago, we set up a training exercise in the South of the UK for a weekend and we were going to go and do a whole bunch of rescue training. And so I said that I was going to sacrifice my gear. We're only in 50 feet of water or so, but we set up a scenario. And the idea was that people were swimming, they'd come back and they would have to lift a body from, and it was me, lift from depth, get them onto the surface, tow them to the boat, get them onto the back of a hard boat, and then do CPR on a resusciani dummy as we went back into shore. Now, A, the lift was difficult. And then we got to the surface and then people were trying to get my harness off me. And I said, just cut it off. Because it was only 20 bucks for a new set of webbing. And then it was a case of, right, get a knife out. How do we use this? And then we're using the easy cuts, the trilobite cutters, like the Z knives. And what we found is that if that's the webbing, people were cutting the blade like this, and the blade is actually on the uphill piece. And what they needed to do was cut it like this, because doing this, it was just basically putting the webbing into the plastic. So it's like, oh, I can't do this. And they got a big green ribbon knife off and cut the harness and got us back on. And then the skipper was basically racing the boat back in, and he was purposely hitting the wake, which meant trying to do CPR on the back of the boat. It was a hard boat. But he was probably doing 20 knots or so. Really hard work. And so it's that sort of validating, do you go about checking your processes and procedures are fit for purpose? And that's the bit of the capacity to fail safely. Yes, we've got a defib. Great. And I'm writing up a report at the moment. Is the battery still wrapped in plastic to protect it from saltwater? Which is what happened on this event. They couldn't work out why the defib wasn't working, because actually they're operating in a remote location, very hot, very humid environment. So the crew knew that the battery was wrapped in plastic, but the rescue team didn't. And they grabbed the defib, went to try and basically start this guy's heart again, and they couldn't work out why it wasn't working. And they destroyed the pads in the process, because there was so much water around. And they were like, what is going on? Opened it up and went, oh, by which time they hadn't got any fresh pads. So it's this bit of making sure we validate the assumptions. So yeah, that would be how I would think about safety is we measure it by its absence. And I often get misquoted here. And we'll see what happens. Fundamentally, there's not enough dead divers to make an emotional difference to what's going on. And the misquote happens says, Gareth says we need to kill more divers to create change. And that's not what it, but you know, rebreathers, rebreather fatalities, I think we've 24, 25 this year so far globally. And it goes up to about 40, depending, you're looking at the stats. Open circuit or divers in general is about 200 divers a year globally. And that happens in ones, maybe twos. But that's, you know, it's small numbers statistically. And we don't hear about them. So they're not front of mind. But that's still 40 people that are no longer with us. Overall, for me, at least, looking at the broadness of the standards and seeing some of the divers out there, I'm actually surprised there's not more accidents sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And there'll be a lot of people. I know there's a lot of people leave the industry or leave the sport because they've had scary events. And even just these last couple of days, single cylinder inside a cave, no line, single light, and that light fails. And they were open water divers completely oblivious to the risks they were facing because it was a trust me dive. And I'm pretty sure that they'd had these dives happen in the past, lights hadn't failed, and therefore it's OK. That is definitely terrifying. That is for sure. So, Gareth, in what ways do your programs address the limitations of traditional diving education? A great question. None of these topics are explicitly covered in the training agency programs. I know when I started doing this stuff, I started teaching in 2016. I think in 2018, I wrote to the major training agencies and said, look, I can give you white label materials, put these into your e-learning systems, and it was going to be a minimal cost. I was a rubbish business person, still am actually. And one of the organizations wrote back and said, we already deal with Dan, we deal with UHMS, we already cover this in our training programs. I'm thinking I've had instructor trainers from your organization who come in and say, we need this because it's not being covered. Now, DEMA was really good because there were five organizations who have started to recognize the value of this. So, I'm hoping in the start of next year, this will be embedded into the essentials class anyway, or bespoke systems will be embedded into the training programs. The ultimate goal of the human diver is just to work at instructor, trainer, and course director level, and the materials flow down inside the training organizations, which in effect is what's happened in the high-risk organizations that are out there or high-risk domains, where they create some standards and then they are embedded within the training materials. The difficulty is safety doesn't sell, safety doesn't make money. So, it's all about trying to market it as performance improvements, which means you're only targeting those who want to get better, as opposed to just happy to go out for a bimble and a dive. The ego issue again, and then not that that's a lot. Well, it's also the piece that some people are just quite happy to go on a dive on a Caribbean cruise and just bimble around in the water. I think part of it is they're not exposed to the risk that they're facing because it's not good for marketing. Being underwater is a continuous hazardous environment. It's non-life-sustaining without mechanical or technical support, but that's not how it's marketed. So, I don't think it's ego that they don't want to learn. It's actually they're naive and they don't know they need to learn. Fair enough. Breaking it back out of the ego into the truth of, I don't know that I need to have an ego about this. So, Gareth, looking back at your own diving journey, is there something you wish had been part of your training, both in your open water and technical diving career? I'm probably one of the fewer people that I did open water in 99, ended up breaching standards on that dive, didn't know that I'd done that, and then didn't dive it for five years. No check of my cards on that first dive, then I had a near miss. And then I would say I fell in with the wrong crowd in the UK with the GUE, Global Underwater Explorers community that was here. So, I did my fundamentals with only about 40 dives to my name. So, I didn't have any real bad habits to unlearn. And so, I've always gone through what I would consider high-performance diver training. And I've been exposed to other training that's out there. And so, with my own military aviation mindset and the training that I've gone through, as the human diver didn't start until 2016, and I certified in 99, I would say probably some human factor stuff before that. But after, I think it's there. What's really needed, I think, in the dive industry in general, is teaching people about risk and uncertainty. And just because you haven't had a bad outcome, it doesn't mean you were safe. And I would say that's probably a fundamental piece that's out there, is this recognition that being on the surface doesn't mean you were good. You could have been lucky. And teaching people to reflect a little bit more. Sure. That normalcy of deviance didn't become a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Yeah. And actually, that normalization of deviances is often about the rule-breaking that's happening. But it's also, more importantly, it's the social acceptance of that drift that happens. And that was one of the things that I called out last week in New Orleans, was the need to look at what's going on. And is it an industry accepting the shift in risk that's being accepted? And we haven't had that many people die, therefore we must be safe. And actually, just look at how much the risk margins are being eroded in the process. And at some point, it could end up collapsing very quickly. Absolutely. So what advice would you offer a diving instructor like me aiming to incorporate human factors into their teaching methodologies? So there are a number of steps that are available depending on how much you're committed to it and how much you want to spend on it. So for those who don't want to spend anything at all, you can go and read the blogs that are on the Human Diver site and the podcast that's there. So there's 150 blogs and the podcast's free. And I think there's probably about 20 episodes there. And we're putting two episodes in a week. And they're about 5 to 15 minutes long, depending on what's going on. If you want to spend a little bit more, get the book Under Pressure. That'll take you about 11 hours to read. It's available on Kindle and Audible as well. Next sort of step up is the Essentials class, which is $97, three and a half, four hours. And if you're an instructor or work in a dive center, you can then build that into your own pre-learning. There's a partnership program that's available. And I've got some of the technical instructors, they put 130, 140 people through their classes. A couple of dive centers have done all of their staff. I know a dive center, they've put their rescue class up by $50 to incorporate the Essentials classes pre-learning. So that would be the next step. And then if you're really into the theory, sign up for a level one program, which is 10 weeks, or a face-to-face program, which is two days. And all of those learning training programs are available on the Human Diver site under thehumandiver.com forward slash training. And if you are an instructor, a dive center manager, or a university, or a scientific diving organization, go onto the website, go to the If Only page, download the workbook, and run a workshop. So you can run a two-hour workshop for free. Everything's given to you, and that will raise the knowledge within your teams or your divers about the value of human factors and why things are the way they are, and what we can do to change them. That's amazing. So Gareth kind of finalized this out. How do you envision the future of safety with more comprehensive integration of things like the human factors into training practice? So perversely, what I would see is more incidents happening, or rather, more incidents reported. So the incidents are happening, they're just not being reported. And so something called a leading indicator in the safety industry is where more reports come in. Now, people go, oh my God, that means that we've got a less safe industry. No, it just means we're capturing these things, and we can learn from them. So I would say that we end up with a common vocabulary. People really understand what psychological safety means, what a just culture means, how to lead within the industry. The retention, I would say, goes up because you're treating divers, student divers, as followers within a team, and you're creating a community, teamwork, people are working together. We have fewer safe, scary moments, or scary safe moments, i.e., we didn't end up with a fatality or an injury, but somebody got out of the water and went, you know what, I ain't doing that again, because that was dangerous. So we've got a better retention rate. And I would say, generally, the standards raise or are risen because people understand why events occur the way they do, as opposed to those stupid divers who aren't following the rules. Well, actually, can you follow them? So I see it as a multifaceted outcome, and that means that it's going to be quite difficult to count a return of investment or see what the change is. But I would say it's probably a generational thing. It's that long. It's 10 years. It took aviation 50 years to get to where it is now, and that's in a regulated, funded industry. Diving is not regulated. It's pretty tight, and the numbers we're trying to measure are pretty small. Unfortunately, they don't happen very often. Fair enough. Gareth, thank you so much. So what's next for Gareth? So we have a number of products coming out. 1st of December, I hope to get Foundations, which will be a free two-hour program, up and running into the app, which we've got in the Apple Store, and it will go to the Android Store shortly. New version 3 of the Essentials program on the 1st of January, and depending on how things go in terms of website, either 1st of January or 1st of February. And then we've got, I've got two more, three more instructors being trained up in January and March next year. So I've got travel to Virginia, where there's classes, and also to Atlanta, Georgia, where we've got classes running there. That is fantastic. Gareth, thank you for your time. You've been generous with your time, as always, and I appreciate you. And I have learned a lot, and I hope others have as well. Brilliant. I loved it. I just, as you can tell, I love talking about this stuff. And I appreciate the airtime for this. So thanks, Ben, and good luck in building that stuff in. And if you've got any questions, if any of your listeners have got questions, drop us a message via the Facebook, Human Factors in Diving Facebook page, or send me an email via the website. I'm always out to help people. Absolutely. And I can attest that Gareth has always been extremely responsive to any questions or comments or messages I've sent him. It's been amazing. Well, Gareth, thank you for your time. Again, my name is Benjamin Hadfield. Teach Me To Dive. I'm a technical dive instructor in Florida and in Idaho. I'm going to do some technical cold water diving today, as a matter of fact. Now, if you like this kind of content, make sure to go to The Human Diver. Check him out on Facebook. Check him out on YouTube. Check him out on his website as well, The Human Diver. Gareth is amazing and a wealth of amazing information. Pick up his book, Under Pressure. You won't regret it. You're doing yourself a disjustice if you're not reading that book and listening to his blog. Amazing stuff. Again, subscribe to our channel. Make sure you hit that like button and go back and check out part one of this interview. You won't regret it. It's an amazing interview. Gareth, thank you for your time. Thanks very much, Ben, and have a great weekend. Thank you, sir.