8 Steps To Become A Sales Machine

Chris Doja sat down with me to share his brutally honest advice to become a sales machine. Chris and I have a combined 50 years of business experience, and we've sold to some of the biggest companies in the world. There isn't a thing we don't know about sales. Here are the eight brutally honest steps that will get you more sales than you can ever imagine. Chris, what are we going to learn today? Number one, say what you think. Most of us are afraid to ask for what we want, clarifying information, budget, scope, all that kind of stuff. And there's a lot of tension and resistance that builds up in us. And we think the stress comes from saying it, or what I've learned in my life is the way to release stress and tension is actually speaking out loud. An example I like to give to people is if you have a friend who's staying with you and has overstayed the welcome and is creating tension between you and your wife or your partner, that's the tension part. The part that you're afraid of doing is saying, buddy, yeah, so can you find another place to stay? Because my wife and I, we need to get on with our lives. And so when we're able to say it, all of a sudden that stress that we've been feeling is automatically released and now we're good. So I learned this lesson early on in my business life when I hired a business coach, when he audited my sales call, he asked me this question, he's like, how do you know what the clients want? And I was like, what do you mean? I'm supposed to know. I'm the designer, the director, they give us a script and I start spitting or pitching ideas to them. Isn't that how it's supposed to work? He goes, no. If you had them in front of you, what would you want to know? But what inspired this idea? And then he asked me, why don't you ever just ask that question? And I thought it was crass to be able to ask people what they want. Like in your relationship with your wife, where do we eat? What kind of cake would you like? And you would want to know those things. But if you ask, then all of a sudden some of the romance and the magic is taken away. So we're supposed to use some magical powers of observation and just intuit what people want. That's a silly way to do it because I would rather ask than guess and be wrong. So say what you think. So when you want to know what the budget is, just ask him, what's the budget? If you want to know how many people are pitching on the project, ask him how many other people are pitching on the project. He gave me permission to ask and say what I think and to say it in the most simplest way possible. And at first it throws people off because they're not used to that kind of direct level of communication. Well, most clients, when you say, what's the budget? They'll say, well, we're still thinking about it or they don't necessarily like you asking it. Right. Or if you ask how many other people are bidding on the project, they don't want to tell you. They want to keep it a secret. They think that revealing some information, you're going to take advantage of them. My whole thing is if you're dealing with a real business person, an entrepreneur on the other side, we understand for us to do business together, we must provide information that is critical to us solving the problem. So you want to hold that as a secret? That's cool. But then maybe I'm not the right person for you. Exactly. I actually once asked a client how many other people are pitching for the project. They told me 18 people. I instantly stopped working with them. They're just using you. They're just trying to get ideas out. If you're working with two people, maybe three people, you can understand. I just think that by asking awkward questions, you think they're awkward, but it will actually save you a lot of pain later if you actually understand how the other person thinks. So what you think, say it. Connect these two things. They're the same. So otherwise, you're going to deal with all this weird anxiety in here and that's how we get rid of it. I think I've been married 23 years. I think that's basically, I tell my wife, just tell me exactly what you want and then I know what to do. Just make it easy for me. I love you. I want to make it work. How's that going for you? So far so good. Every other week we think about getting a divorce, but so far so good. Eventually she tells me and then I can say yes or no, I can do what she needs to have a good life. Number two, questions are greater than answers. What I would do is if I were in a workshop with people who are trying to learn sales, I would ask them these questions like, what do you believe is more valuable, more powerful, questions or answers? And then there's some debate. And it's one of those kinds of questions where there's really not a right answer or wrong answer and eventually some people will say answers. I'm like, okay, let's talk about that. And some people will say questions. So they answer people. They would say something like, well, answers are more powerful because, you know, in school you have the answers. You're a smart one. You get all, all the questions on the test, correct? You get an A, you go to university, you get a scholarship, you get a grant, you move on in life. It's okay. How about you question people? Like questions are more powerful. I'm like, why? And they would say all these things. And I said, well, if you believe that questions are more powerful than answers, why did you answer a question with an answer? What questions do is they open conversations, answers close conversation. And the problem that most of us have is we presume to know and understand the question. So we provide an answer because we're trained like dogs. Now, if you and I are talking and we're talking about sales, sales is essentially you desire some future state, you have a desired future state, and then you have your current state. And what sales would be is to try to help you change, to improve your life or to remove pain. Either one is good. So before I can give you a solution, I need to know where are you now and where would you like to be? And so oftentimes when the client would say to you, like, I need a logo, like in that example with the woman you will speak to later today, she should have asked you more questions, but she was like a deer in the headlights, of course. So she should say, why do you need a logo? What is wrong with the current logo that you have today? What is it that you're looking for and have a dialogue with you? So one of the things that happens is when you ask questions, you make this person, the person in front of you feel really important, heard, seen, and possibly understood. And those are feelings that are close to love because in relationships where you don't feel seen and heard or understood, you don't have those positive emotions. And so no business is going to be done if I'm in a negative state of mind. So what I want to do is encourage people, wherever it is that you're in front of, learn how to ask a really great question, an open-ended question that isn't baked in with an agenda or is a binary thing that's leading down to a very specific path. I love this point. I've built a whole career. What's your dream? A totally open question that allows you to figure out where someone is in their stages of life instantly. By their answer, you can understand where they are in life. My seven-year-old the other day answered something, he didn't actually know the answer. It's baked into us to like, I know it, I know the answer. He didn't, but he gave an answer. It's something we should really reset in ourselves because it's naturally in us to ask questions to understand the person we're talking to. But for some reason, we think we need to have the answers. So there's a shift here, Simon. We've been taught to be great problem solvers. So we're really quick to rush to the solution. If we just spent more time understanding what the problem is, we're going to build the natural rapport, possibly empathy, and see angles and problems we hadn't been privy to until we asked those kinds of questions. So we want to shift away from being problem solvers to problem seekers. What's a good problem? We need to solve a big problem, a problem that's going to be impactful to your business. So if you want to get more deals, stop selling, start closing, ask better questions. Number three, listening, believe it or not, is your secret power. What people do oftentimes, they ask a question and they just stop listening. Because people ask questions or just wait for an opportunity to speak again. So we're not in conversation to understand, we're in conversation to respond. So the way I can tell is if somebody asks me a question and I give them the answer, you give me a question, I give you an answer. And what you do is you give me another question, you get another answer. And we see this in interviews a lot. I would tell people, I don't like being on podcasts where there are checklist interviewers. Maybe you know them. Maybe you've done it. Maybe I've done it. I don't know. When you have a list of questions and you're like, it doesn't really matter what you say. Because you're not listening to the person and what they're saying. So you're not following a story. Not at all. You're just following the list. I'll say something that's weird, shocking, and disturbing, and they're like, whoa. And then just move on to the next question. So I know they don't even care. So the thing is, if you ask a question and they give you an answer, now you must listen. And listening requires a lot of brain power. I'm sorry, this is a bad brain, but you have to really think. It does look like my brain. Only at the marker. So it's like, I have to process, what does this mean? I have to literally understand the words, unpack what we'll refer to as suitcase words. Suitcase words are words that have multiple meanings inside them. So you have to unpack that and really understand. And then we have to read the subtext. What are they not saying in what they're saying? So if you ask your wife, is it okay if I go and hang out with the crew for lunch? And she's like, whatever. You're like, cool. I got permission. You're not understanding subtext here. You don't understand tone. You're missing everything. So you better stop in your tracks and say, wait a minute, something is wrong. Maybe I've done something prior to this moment. I need to go and figure this out. So when you ask a really good question, the thing that you want to do is just listen and then ask another question about the answer you just got. Until you reach- Because you're listening as well, if you ask a question of what he was asking. I think so. And, you know, then there are threads that you can pull on. And I think sometimes people do this subconsciously to see if what they say matters to you. I think Kevin Daly writes about this in his book, Socratic Selling. It's called full value listening. And it's telling the other person everything that you say is really, really important. So I suggest people take notes. So you can get a little notebook out. And there's this idea that eye contact is really important. And I have a problem with eye contact, mostly because I'm an introvert. When somebody is looking at me, when I'm telling them very complicated things, the whole time I'm thinking, are you going to remember any of this? But if somebody's got a notebook and I'm like, yes, sir, okay, and this, you know when they have restaurants where they're taught not to write down your order? Yeah, I'm always amazed when they can do it. But you're also terrified the whole time, like, are you going to get my lactose intolerant, gluten free diet right? And I like my protein or whatever, prepare it a certain way. And it's amazing, but it's very anxiety inducing. I think so. And it says you're really important. And think about the most important people, CEOs, presidents of countries or corporations, you know who's in charge because they're speaking and everyone else is doing this. Because what you say is important. So I would say take notes and let people know. I'm not looking at you because I think what you say matters and I don't want to miss anything. We need to listen to understand, right? Versus listen to respond and that's the problem. So even when you think the person's done speaking, wait three seconds. Make sure. And if you say something and they're about to say something, stop. You're just so excited to say things and to prove that you're smart, that what you're doing is you're just being really annoying. It's true. Yeah. I mean, being patient and listening is so powerful. I think it's something it's a skill that you think is saying nothing. It shouldn't be a skill, but it kind of is control your mind and your impulse. So if we can just learn to stop, pause, listen to fully process what's going on, ask deep follow up questions, we're going to do ourselves a giant favor. Here's the good news for most of you. Listening is one of the most natural things you can do. It requires almost no skill that you have to develop. You just have to be quiet and process. The quietest amongst us, the most introverted person I know, this, in fact, is your superpower. 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That's over 2,500 US dollars worth of perks from top tools like Canva, Shopify and more. You can buy your dot store domain through GoDaddy or Namecheap, but the discount code only works for the link below. Number four, never justify. Pathological liars tend to think that by explaining and over explaining and providing an excruciating amount of detail to things that their lie has credibility. And so one of the signs of pathological liars is they tend to be overly verbose. They say so much. So when somebody asks you, what's your price? Say it's a thousand dollars. Stop. Full stop. Don't say anymore. The other way that I see people do it's like, it's a thousand dollars because I work really hard and you know, I went to this school and you have a lot of different needs and there's a lot of touch points. It makes you sound really, really weak. And the reason why I think you're saying it and justifying is because you don't believe it yourself. And I pick up on that. You're signaling to the other person, this, I'm inexperienced. I think I might've charged more than I think I'm worth. I don't know if you need this. There's all kinds of things about that. Right. And here's how we make it personal. Cause we're going to get into dating. If you were to meet somebody that's really attractive and you're, and you say like, would you like to go on a date? And they say to you, why would I date you? I'm like, there's no reason I would just get up and walk away. Why do you hold such superior position over me that you're going to ask me to justify myself to you? And if I have to, the relationship is going to be lopsided and you're going to be abused the entire time. I would say to them, I'm curious about why you think I should date you. I just flip it on them. And no one likes that. So you didn't like the question. Why did you ask me that same question? We arrive in a business relationship as equals. There are things that you do to see the higher ground and justifying is one of them. So never justify, just say what you believe and stop. Even if you don't believe it, just stop and see what happens. Bite your tongue. It's so true. I'm just thinking the other day, someone asked me to a speaking gig and I said 50,000 US dollars for the fee. And it's just a text. And I didn't say anything after. And then I could see they were thinking about that. And then they sent me a message. Why so high? And I said, I said to them, I don't need to explain it. It's a yes or no really, isn't it? You said that? Yeah. Okay. They said yes. Oh, but my point is, you know, you know, like I can try to explain that, you know, I've been in business 35 years. I could be doing other things during that time. I could probably do a video that make that money or spend time talking to the audience they want me to talk to. I could do that. Yeah. And I do think it starts to belittle the thing that I believe to be true, that I have value. So it's an interesting thing. Because again, when clients in particular people listen to this and they're pitching to a client, a client wants you to justify it so that they end up in the power dynamic of being controlled with the contract. Whereas if you don't explain it, it's really powerful. Yeah. I think there's two concepts attached to this. And I'm no like person, wordsmith person here, but there's the word just, and there's the word justice that must be related to the word justify. When I think of justice, I think of like the scales of justice, like it's all balanced. Right. And so they say, well, there's a big price and they need to know this other thing. They need to find balance in that. It is not my job to tell you why it's worth this. It's my job to provide you the information that you need to ask you smart, open-ended questions so that you can determine if what I do is worth the amount of money. That's it. And the word just, we know that if you put the word just in front of anything, what just does is it diminishes that thing. It's just cleaning the car. It's just another change order. It can't be that hard. So people use this language to make what you do seem smaller and trivial and less important and less valuable. So I'm concerned about these two ideas as connected to justify. I don't want to justify. Number five is how to handle objections. There's a couple of things we need to know about objections. And if you're not familiar with sales, you might be thinking to yourself, what is an objection? Objection is a question as to like, I'm not ready to buy it. It's it's how they express resistance. They're not ready to say yes. Most of us have really negative opinions about this. So we, we approach an objection with a bad attitude and probably respond with a violent comment. For example, they might say something like an objection would be, why is it so much money? Or can this be done quicker? Or are there, can I pay in installments? There's a lot of different things that hold up them from saying yes. So I'm going to reframe what an objection is. I'm going to use the thing from a dating book. It's called the IOI. Have you heard of this IOI? It's an indicator of interest. Okay. If I'm talking to you about a service that you're not interested in, in my theory is you will never express an objection. You'll say, send me the brochure, send me a proposal and see you later. I got to talk it over with somebody. And that's the end of it. You don't ask more questions. So when people ask questions about it, they're actually really interested. And I take that as a positive sign, not a negative sign. So we need to reframe our mindset when we hear an objection. We need to pause and say, this is good. I think they're interested. It's like when you're fishing and there's a nibble on the hook, you're like, wait, wait, wait, don't reel him in yet. Just relax. But there is activity here versus I'm not interested in fish swims right away. That's what happens all the time. So typically speaking, not always, when the prospect says to you, send me the proposal, send it to me and whatever, it means no. It just usually means no in polite culture because they're not willing to say no. How do you handle objections? You handle it by embracing it. And there's like a mental jujitsu thing that we do. We embrace it and we pivot. I'm going to share a story. I'm in a meeting with some star architects, some famous architects here in LA. And they were looking to redo their identity system and their website. And I'm in the room with the three principals and one person says, Chris, I'm going to be honest with you. He's a really direct communicator. I appreciate that. And he says, you're not the typical person we would choose. Everybody else that we're looking at has this much experience and working with architectural firms understands our needs very well, understands the market. You don't have a single thing. So you're not our typical choice. So here's where we use a little wordplay and we kind of embrace that. So I said to him, you're right. We don't have the experience that you seek. The challenge here is when you hire firms that have done all this work, what you get is one of the things they've already done before that they're likely to do again for one of the competitors. If you want that, you should hire them because that's a safe route. To pick us would be to do something atypical. So you're absolutely right. We're not typical at all, but we're not going to give you what they're giving everyone else. And you have to decide if that's what you want or not. It's psychologically so interesting because you're also like, you're taking off the table almost that you as a choice. Instead of pushing you further towards, you're saying, look, take off the table. You're right. If you don't want this thing that's different and unique and special and original, let me just take it away from you. So I'm going to do a little example, a little illustration for you, okay? This is a waffle cone, delicious handmade small batch. Say this is vanilla, this is chocolate, okay? And I asked you, what is your favorite flavor? What would you say? Chocolate. Okay. The more I try to convince you vanilla is better, what do you have to do? Just objections. Vanilla is better. Why would you say that, Simon? You know chocolate's not good for you. Vanilla is preferred as the most popular choice in the world. What would you say? I'd say, yeah, chocolate's my thing, man. Okay. So what happens is you have a belief. Even if you don't believe in it, as soon as you say it and I challenge you, you're going to feel like you have to defend your choice, otherwise you're going to feel dumb. So one of the biggest, not laws, but things that drive us, the biggest motivation in our life is the need to be consistent with ourselves. You've heard this before? Yeah. So we want to be consistent with ourselves. And when I ask you to be inconsistent with yourself, you're going to fight and you're going to push back. Even if you know you're wrong. You may have gotten into an argument with a friend, a spouse, somebody, and they know they're wrong, but they just can't back down. Or maybe you were the idiot that was wrong, and you're like, no, I need to, no, I've never said that. Even though you know in the back of your mind, I'm wrong, I should just admit it. So when you push against someone's request, observation, you're asking them to dig deeper. So not only are you convicted that chocolate is superior, you're now convinced that it's two, maybe four times superior now. And the more I do this, the more I'm building a gap between us versus building a bridge. And I'm pushing you more into your corner because no one wants to sound like they're stupid or that they're not thoughtful communicators. So what I want to do is instead, I'd just say, is chocolate the best flavor for you? Obviously, yes. It's the only flavor you would ever try in your life? For now, yeah. For now? What is it about chocolate that you really love? I don't know, it's the texture, mainly. Chocolate in my mind. It's not just flavor. This is amazing. So I don't think of chocolate as something with texture, so are you like adding things in your mind? Like, is this a rocky road chocolate? Kind of. Okay. It's got lumps. You like chunks in it. By the way, this is making me want an ice cream. You're so good at this. I don't care at this point. Go on. What's the spin? How are you going to make me have vanilla? I'm not. Jedi mind trick. There's no Jedi mind trick. It's vanilla you want. There's no. It's vanilla I want. But here's the thing. I see. So if I make a deduction, you like a certain kind of mouthfeel. There's the chewiness of the marshmallow, the nutty. So there's like variety. So I can see why you would not want vanilla because vanilla is vanilla. It's used as an example for boring. Yeah. I would always say something like this. It's like, well, this vanilla is only being made today and it's never coming back on the menu tomorrow. You can have chocolate anytime. Would that be the kind of like? I wouldn't do that because to me, that's like a hard sell. Okay. I want you to come to the conclusion. So the best way I know how to do this is get this off the menu and you and I look at the problem together. What is it that you like about this? And based on what your preferences are, may I make a recommendation that might introduce you to 20% new flavor, not 100% new flavor. All right. So let's talk about brand. I think I heard Michael Margolis talk about this. And he said that a product service without a story is a commodity. And so brand to me has real value in the world because it's the price we will pay above its equivalent. And the more we're willing to pay above the cheaper alternative is how strong the brand is. When it comes to sales, if you are a cookie cutter, no one knows who you are. There's no reputation around you. You're going to have to compete on other things. But if you have a powerful brand, you're well known. There are things that you're doing. It accelerates the relationship and allows you to command the premium. How do we know? Okay, there's a small company. The small company essentially puts this on a t-shirt. And the t-shirt, you and I might buy a no brand shirt. And I don't know if you're an anti-brand guy. Let's just assume you're not an anti-brand guy because that falls apart. We might buy this for like six bucks. If we go to Costco or something like that, we might buy three or four of them for like 10 bucks because there's no brand, because it serves the utility and it's functional and covers our body. That's all it does. As soon as we attach that logo to this, the price of the shirt goes to probably $36. Why is that? Because that is the value that you add to it. So when people are like, well, brand's worthless, well, they don't understand brand the right way. This is true about water. It's true about cars. It's true about books. It's true about everything. Because inside of this is what all books are. A piece of the paper with ink in it. But this says something about who this person is, what they represent, and I'm going to buy this book. Yeah, I think it was Anelope who said something like this. Says every dollar you spend is a vote for the world that you want or want to live in. And so we get to choose. Maybe you're, I don't know the Adidas logo well enough to draw it, but let's say you're an Adidas person, right? We choose this company wins or this company wins. And you're on an Apple side or you're on a Google or Galaxy side, whatever it is, you're on one side or the other. You're going to pick all the time we're voting. So brand has a lot of power when it comes to sales. If you have a strong personal brand, if you created content, if you've been of service to people, if you show up consistently. First of all, I feel like I know you. I think I might like you. And we're already on our way to trust, which we just talked about. Trust. That was the cue, right? So we can build trust at scale by developing and harnessing our brands. I think personal brand nowadays, people, some people I meet say, oh, I don't want to build a personal brand. My argument is if you don't want to, it doesn't matter. It's still happening. I think we all have brands and I'm going to just be a nerd with you. We have brands with a little B, the kind of brand I'm talking about is brand with a big B. Okay? So brand is an impression. It's a reputation. It's a gut feeling about you. So everyone in this room now, having heard me talk for long enough, has an impression of me, but maybe a different group, like 12 year olds will have a different opinion. My parents might have a different opinion. So there's all these impressions and these different ideas. So when we have enough people come to the same conclusion as to who you are, then you have a brand. But that's just a very small circle. What I'm talking about, brand with a big B, is this at scale. Right? So in your local community, people know you. Your coworkers, they know you. You have a brand. You're the person who shows up on time. You're always optimistic about work. That's a good brand, small B, to have. But outside that room, no one knows who the heck you are. But we live in a wonderful time, amplified by social media and content, that we have relatively democratic reach, that that same person putting some effort, intention, and understanding how this game works, can develop this at massive scale. Number seven is the big one, to be in the service of others. Earlier today, I was telling you about sales. And we need to reframe sales, because if we have a negative emotion around sales, then we're not going to do it well. We won't want to learn. We won't get better. That's why so many people that you approach in the street are very timid, reluctant to say whatever it is they want to say. So let's look at sales. What is sales? Okay? Sales is to serve, to have this idea that somebody's needs are more important than yours, that you approach things with an agenda. It's to ask questions and not to give answers. It's to listen with great intention and to ask great follow-up questions so that we understand and surface deeper meaning motivations. E is to empathize, to understand what they're really going through. Somebody's livelihood depends on making the right decisions, whether it's a job or a business or an investment. And the last thing is we're going to summarize. So to me, that's sales. So the first and most important thing is to have the mindset of servitude. So when we say, I've served, what does that connote to you? I think it means you understand the person's needs and your giving and what they need. I mean, in pop culture, when somebody's like, thank you for your service, I've served. Yeah. Is there a connotation to you? I don't know if there's a connotation in my... Thank you for your service. I had someone say that to me today when we were up at the Hollywood sign. They're talking about me. No, well, I said thank you for your service to them. Because they were in the military. So you understand. But I still felt a sense of gratitude. Yes. Because they literally put their lives on the line, fight for our freedom. That's the ultimate thing, isn't it? They put their lives on the line for what you believe and what their country believes in. And it's a really great story to tell young men and women to put their lives on the line for a higher purpose and idea. Good story to tell. So when we see people, we salute them and we show them respect and we honor them. So what that means is they're willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for a bigger goal. So if you want to be better at sales, you should understand what is the other person's bigger mission and goal in life and put aside your own needs. The problem is most people approach sales as, I need to make money. I need to be validated. I need to pay for this or that. And they just make it all about themselves. So you want to act as a fiduciary if possible and help them make the best decision for them despite it not being good for you. So we want to be of service to others. And when you do that, your mindset changes. Everything about you changes. So when I do a sales workshop, I'll say, I'm grateful for you all to be here. I'm grateful that we have the space and that today's a beautiful day and that we're going to have great food later. What are some things that you are all grateful for? And we just do this gratitude exercise. Can we be grateful for the things that don't even need to be grateful for? Like, I'm grateful that this table is well made. I'm grateful that this light is working well and it's not flickering in my face right now. So if we start to adopt this mindset of gratitude, it changes our emotions and says, well, let's transfer this over to have a sales conversation. Hold on to that feeling for as long as you can while we're having this conversation because it'll change the way that you show up, the language that you use. It'll affect your body language, right? So if you go into a date or a business meeting full of anxiety, you're going to sweat more. You're going to probably shake nervously and the words are going to come up funny. You tease by chatter, all these kinds of things. That's not actually setting you up for success. So we want to adopt the right mindset and believe it. Natural born seller. I didn't think I was a natural born salesperson. Turns out I am. But anyway, I'd love to hear you. Me neither. Yeah, exactly. You, as an introvert, your own description, you wouldn't be described typically as a salesperson. No. But you definitely are. I thought I hated sales. And I told people I hate selling, I hate pitching. And my coach at that time says, you just hate because you're not good at it. Let's help you get there. And then I learned to love sales. And I don't have any of the old emotional negative charge and response that I have. And I want to share a story with everyone here. So years ago, I go and visit this amazing remote fishing lodge in British Columbia off the central west coast. And I happened to be paired up with some friend of a friend. And he goes, Chris, I love what you do. You know what they need here? They need better marketing and design. I'm like, and he goes, you know what? I'm going to ask them. I'm going to sell this and I'm going to get you this project. I'm like, great, because I don't want to do sales. But he's like, but you're going to have to give me like 30% of the project. I'm like, I guess that's fair, sort of. I'm like, oh, my God. He's going to have one conversation because I don't have the guts to ask for what I want. So he goes, OK. And he's a very outgoing guy. So I'm outside literally looking in and the plane's coming to pick us up and everything. So I'm like, there's not a lot of time left here. He goes inside. I can see him talking to the general manager. Blah, blah, blah. He comes out. I'm like, yeah, in, in, in. He goes, no, I couldn't ask for it. I'm like, oh, OK. The plane hasn't come. So I walk into the room thinking, you know what? Because of my own shyness and my aversion towards sales, I was going to pay somebody a lot of the money for doing almost none of the work. So I walked in there and sat down with the general manager and I asked him this question. I says, you know what? I love being here so much. This is an amazing experience. You must have like the calendar booked out forever. He pauses, he turns to me. He's like, Chris, you know what? Our clientele are literally dying because to be able to afford to go here, you are of a certain age and then they have health problems and they literally pass away. He goes, I need to fill this calendar because we don't make money unless it's a fully booked season. And I said to him, his name is Ernie. I said, Ernie, I know you don't know this about me, but in my life outside of here, this is what I do for a living. And I'd love to help you if this is of interest to you. He goes, absolutely. Should we follow up? And so that was a really important lesson in my life that opportunities are going to pass you every single day of your life. If you're unwilling to learn a skill and put yourself out there and to risk the most horrible thing you could have happen. Somebody's like not interested. Well, your life didn't really change because it's going to continue on just as a ways before, but we're so fearful of rejection that we'll do anything possible to make a thousand excuses why we shouldn't put ourselves out there to harm ourselves ultimately. So that was my journey into learning how to ask for the sale, how to have conversations with people in real life everywhere I go and to make it the most natural thing. And it's really just about having a conversation with somebody and understanding what they're going through and seeing if there's a natural fit. If there's a fit, we can work. If not, we just move on. Best salesperson in my agency, Fluid, which I built out of Hong Kong, which I sold to PricewaterhouseCooper. That agency's number one salesperson was our accountant. And it's because she used to go and have lunches with other high-profile accountants in big companies. And they'd sit around a table and they'd be talking about what they're doing. And she'd talk with joy about how we just helped the company come out of bankruptcy and we saved another company and she'd be telling all these people. And then they'd go back to the office and tell their CEOs about this company that her friend works at. And next thing, I get a phone call. Can you come in, Simon, and see how we... So she was just telling a story about what she was doing. She just was proud of her work. Even though she was only the accountant. I say that, a very important role. But she was the accountant. She wasn't doing the creative. She wasn't doing the strategy. She wasn't doing the sales. She was the number one salesperson. I would imagine as an accountant, there was not a lot of BS in this person. No, no. Very the opposite of BS. So you can say a natural-born seller is no BS. I actually think, yeah. And that's the opposite to what we think. Yeah. We think it's all car salesmen selling you a car that's going to break down when you leave the lot, which is just not how it is. And the other idea that we can think about is the best salespeople aren't selling at all. They're telling stories. So what we want to do is we want to create stories that are repeatable. And it sounded to me like she was very good at telling repeatable stories. So repeatable stories, I tell you, you tell somebody something, and it spreads. So there's certain components we have to have in a story. So usually, it's reduced down to three things. There's a character. There's a want. And then there's an obstacle. We can just have those three components in a story. We're well on our way. So this is a very simple framework. Thanks very much for listening. We'll have to have some chicken. We'll see you later.