Ambassador Sam Brownback: CCP Holding Christians as Hostages Before Trump–Xi Meeting

Tonight at 1000 p.m. Eastern, President Trump is scheduled to begin a high stakes meeting with Chinese regime leader Xi Jinping. They're set to discuss the fentinol crisis, the trade war, and human rights. Joining us now to discuss is an ambassador Sam Brownback. He's the co-chair of the International Religious Freedom Summit and a former US ambassador at large for international religious freedom. He also has an upcoming book titled China's War on Faith. Ambassador, it's an honor and privilege to have you here as always. I'd like to begin by playing a clip from your speech yesterday at the Victims of Communism Memorial. >> This should move from being just a human rights issue to a national security issue for us, religious freedom. It is the most potent powerful tool that we have. >> Ambassador, what did you mean by that? I mean, it's a key hallmark of a western open society is religious freedom. You get to choose what you want to do with your own soul. And it is an existential threat to a communist regime. They have to and do spend billions of dollars to control people of faith. And so, one of the things that we can do is stand up for who we are and who we think uh what we think people around the world deserve, which is religious freedom. It's a fundamental UN uh bound human right. It's in the UN charter of human rights. China has signed that agreement. We should press it and it's one of those things that will drive freedom inside of China which will benefit us and the whole world. >> So, Ambassador, when it comes to human rights or religious freedom, what would you like to see come out of tonight's meeting? I'd like to see the discussion begin. Uh I this is a high stakes meeting and it's the first one of them face to face in six years. I wouldn't expect them really to get into much on the human rights territory because it's such a difficult issue for China. They've got three genocides going on in their country right now. They persecute everybody of faith in that nation. This is a tough one for them, but it's a fundamental one for us. And I would hope that the topic would just come up. Maybe it's through Jimmy Lie that they bring up the Jimmy Lie case in Hong Kong and start that discussion through that specific one. It would be great if they would bring up some of the cases like of the fallen gong family members of US citizens that have family members incarcerated in China. I would hope they would do something like that. I think that may be uh a little optimistic for a first meeting, but as the dialogue gets going, hopefully more of these cases can be raised. >> I know you touched on the fall & gong issue during your speech yesterday. I want to get there. Uh ambassador, I want to bring up another quotation that you made uh during your speech. You said, "Either the world will change China or China will change the world." Can you expound on that for us? I think it's just pretty clear. Uh, China, a communist country, has a communist ideology. Uh, it does not believe nor allow for a belief in a higher authority in God. Uh, they control, as I said earlier, all people of faith. Uh, it doesn't matter if it's Buddhist or Christian, Muslim, any group. They control and they demand that sort of control. And that's the world system they want to move towards. And with the authoritarian alliances that they have right now, that's what they're pushing. And they've got surveillance technology that they freely distribute to these countries to implement those sort of control systems. That's the world they want. That will change the world. So either China is going to change the world or we're going to have to change China to open up and to accept things like religious freedom and human rights for individuals. These two systems are in direct opposition to each other and you're going to see one of them win. >> It's incredible to think, Ambassador, how things have developed down these two paths over the past couple decades. It's incredible. As you brought up earlier, you you to say there are three genocides happening in China right now. We have the Tibetan Buddhists, which you call a cultural genocide, the weaguer Muslims in western China, and Fallon Gong. You said yesterday that perhaps Fallon Gong probably gets it the worst of all. For anybody at home who isn't as familiar, Fallon Gong's principles, truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance. Yet, as you point out, they've been brutalized by the regime for over 26 years now. Uh, for anybody at home, Ambassador, can you give some insight into the plight of the fallen gong there in China? It's horrific. I've interviewed a number of fallen gong family members who have lost loved ones uh who themselves have been incarcerated, somehow got out. Uh there's forced organ harvesting taking place, which is to me just an unbelievably barbaric thing going on that the Chinese Communist Party has done. And here I want to make specifically this is about the Chinese Communist Party. China itself is a very spiritual country. The Communist Party is this forced outside ideology that was developed in Europe in the mid 1800s forced on the system and on Chinese people. And I say that fallen gong gets it the worst because it's the most of the indigenous faiths in China. It's it really is a homegrown faith that has millions of adherence and really scares the Chinese Communist Party because it appeals so much to kind of the the soil, the natural environment in ch in in China. I say it's like sewing wheat in Kansas. It just grows, you know, that that's what's taken place there. And that's why it scares the Communist Party so much, I think. And I think it's why they've been so offensive and aggressive towards all faith, but particularly towards fallen gong. >> It's incredible. The fallen daffa information center, if you've seen it, ambassador, they're asking President Trump to make two requests of Xiinping during this meeting. One, as you brought up, was to free the jailed practitioners with US family ties. And number two is to end Beijing's targeting of Fallen Gong here in the United States. Now, given everything you've already laid out for us, like how the CCP is harvesting the organs of these practitioners, these latest requests seem quite humble. >> They are humble. They these are basic basic things here. And one of them is about US issues. It's about China not doing transnational oppression in the United States, not even in their country. I mean, that should be basic, you would think. It's just I don't know that those topics will come up because fall & gong is such a touchy issue uh to the Chinese Communist Party. So I'm I'm kind of doubtful it comes up in the first meetings, but it's the sort of thing that we really should be pushing for and more broadly really we should just push for this fundamental right of religious freedom for every person in China. It's that they're entitled to. It's agreement that China has signed on to in the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Uh it's fundamental to the individual. It's the human right of the soul. It's something that they should do and it would be good for the Chinese people and it would be good for the country of China. I just don't know if we can get the Chinese Communist Party to move that way. >> Yes, Ambassador. Uh, finally, we've all read the news that the CCP has recently intensified its persecution of Christians in China, too. It's targeted an independent faith group known as the Zion Church. President Trump has been very vocal about protecting Christians around the world this term. Is they likely demand anything from she on this? I hope so. I think really the Zion church was targeted and these were hostages. I don't know that this is part of their overall plan to control religions. I think they're taking hostages as trading material. I think it was something they did just before the summit, something like the rare earths uh mineral and stopping those exports to the United States to create pressure uh against the United States. Uh I think we should demand their release uh of these individuals, these Christians that were simply practicing their faith in China. But I think it was a hostage move reminiscent of what China used to do uh when we had the annual most favored nation vote. They used to take Christian hostages and then trade them uh to try to get more favorable votes out of the Congress. >> Ambassador, you've given me shivers hostages. This is just incredible. Ambassador Brownback, we appreciate everything you do for religious freedom around the world. Thank you, sir. >> My pleasure. Take care.