(Videorozhovor) L. Onderčanin o osudoch Slovákov v Kirgizsku pred sto rokmi: Interhelpo, Dubčekovci a nenaplnené sny

So very glad that today Lukáš Onderčanín joined us journalist for the daily SME and especially the author of the excellent book Utopia in Lenin's Garden which maps the journey of over a thousand Czechoslovaks ose who decided to leave everything behind at home and explore They left their homeland behind to help build a better and fairer society within the Slovak community We'll discuss how it all turned out with Mr Onderčanín Goodbye March 25 will mark 101 years since the first train departed Czechoslovakia for Kyrgyzstan Let's first move over though Czechoslovakia was established in 1918 after the First World War What was the actual social and economic situation What motivated people to leave for the unknown Kyrgyzstan or even consider leaving their homeland The situation in Czechoslovakia was not entirely ideal particularly in the Slovak part It was common at the time for various worker strikes to take place because those wages were not very high There were several cases of bloody crackdowns as well as some strikes A bolt from the blue also the consequence of the First World War and likewise a global financial crisis And perhaps the biggest crisis which came later began to unfold slowly But the ordinary workers certainly didn't have an easy situation many were motivated to seek an alternative or emigration to the United States What was actually commonplace even more so a global norm And there arose a problem around that time as Americans began restricting that immigration in the 1920s and 1930s It was much harder to get there let alone find work An alternative arose whether to seek work elsewhere Indeed those workers were ofte In such a desperate situation they couldn't even rely on their own family They were looking for various alternatives and one of them was opening up or possibly emigration to that east where the Soviet Union was formed And many still didn't know what it would mean or what it would look like But they had mainly a communist-oriented hope that perhaps this could also be an alternative Specifically in this case on this journey to Kyrgyzstan Rudolf Mareček played a largely decisive role in that who was in fact the originator of the idea and its main organizer Maybe we could take a moment to describe him a bit what kind of person he was in particular It seemed to me that she was extremely interesting Definitely yes Rudolf Mareček was so moralistic I'd be a traveler a wanderer who didn't want to stay completely settled somewhere in his hometown studied in Vienna then relatively early on made his way to Central Asia at was certainly not common at the time let alone traveling so far away And in that part of Central Asia e joined the revolution himself which also brought them the Soviet Union Even those documents e left behind a considerable amount of memories and many documents indicating that he was se as a prominent figure was detained all the way to China after being released from Kyrgyzsta prisoners and nomads and in fact he had to bring those Kyrgyz back to Kyrgyzstan So he went there uge adventures nearly died crossing there various ones I told you about And when he returned to Czechoslovakia during that period after the end In the First World War he was thrilled by the idea of the creation of the Soviet Union some communist countries He was therefore convinced a communist and tried to Inspire others with that idea The problem was that at the time there was no way to report those thoughts relatively disadvantaged in Czechoslovakia and although the Communist Party did exist The authorities didn't pay much attention to him And Rodolf Mareček tried some way speculate about how to work it out And he came up with the idea tha the former part of the Soviet Union now Kyrgyzstan could bring about a certain group enthusiastic communist workers mostly farmers who would establish there a commune where everyone would be Actually working for oneself where everyone would be well off where in truth everyone would live in equality And since he couldn't fully promote it publicly without being precisely prosecuted for it and he was in fact already under scrutiny arassed so he wrapped it up in such travel lectures and in effec raveled through Czechoslovak cities or even today we imagine travel presentations and He was actually telling people how fascinating and beautiful the lecture was The region is very interesting and in fact it actually attracted those people at he wants to organize something like an Interhalpo lecture there where everyone would actually live In that equality and gradually it actually spurred those people into action so they began to run preparations for this rule From what I'd read in the book Mr Mareček seemed to me like a wizard of some magic whose personal charm and charisma can effortlessly entangle everyone ot a purchase item Such a type that burst out from the child He was everywhere saw everything experienced it all That is part of it that is What he told those people was the truth—no it wasn't We'll probably never know for sure You're the one with the real problem I met his grandchildren at the cottage where he still lived He was a true hero truly accomplished much yet at the same time he was such a schemer We don't entirely know for sure whether he truly meant it sincerely or not There's no effort to profit from those people And part of this book is his story whether or not he deceived those people but at the very least he entertained the idea Idarholpa The question then is whether it has been sufficiently thought through because something else is at stake come up with the idea and visualize how it will work then put it into practice o carry it out And I think that by the time the preparations were made it had somewhat slipped out of his hands as soon as it started gaining momentum that a small project would suddenly become something much better It was actually Mareček who ultimately had the opportunity and at that time Czechoslovakia and we don't know at it was his decision It is true that he ept the belt but could have quickly left the area and caused ere were actually very many complications in the following years and ye It was the emergence of Idarholpa And are there any details about it being on was a Soviet citizen as were the people let's say What they can provide for that journey or anything about it they want to claim There's absolutely no proof or perhaps it would be necessary to gain access to some Russian archives what is very complicated and always possible But it is likely that some funds at he received it because it was actually an idea originating from the Soviet Union whic she also organized such robotic expeditions and Mareček was not the only one e was probably the most significant figure in organizing it so it's assumed that some money was involved He received it for that We don't even know for example whether something from those posts those very same jerks Probably not but at least on some attempt Yet that project which would be Alright so we're probably in the early 1920s Mr Mareček is doing lectures especially in Polvaží of course and in Žilina Martin Trenčín and roduces this as part of the newly established language IDO meaning it was some multifunctional language for Czech people or something specific At that time actually what is better known Esperanto a kind of international language was relatively popular in the 1920s Then something akin to a reform emerged Esperanto which is somewhat simpler and that was the Ido languages And Mareče He actually became enthusiastic about the idea and started organizing such clubs I visited the IDO language event in Vienna myself and from then on we know for sure that Žilina and Mar since such courses where those people used to go to learn that language but I think the main thing is The idea was precisely to organize those communist gatherings preparing for that trip to Kyrgyzstan and thus it also received the origin of Interhelp but e first thought was that when they went somewhere The Soviet Union that's how they'll speak of it in that language but in practice Even when you go there looking for work or rather sometimes I'd say fighting to survive So you still have to study some artificial language you'll never actually use Even though you basically understand each other that was unnecessary So partially The team may have dismissed that idea why organize it But then In fact the cooperative Interhelpo was founded in Žilina When was that Interhelpo itself was established in the year 1923 if any organization and then actually not until March 1925 did the first one take place ransport In essence the establishment of Interhelp was already aimed a They were going to Kyrgyzstan and those people essentially had two years or up to two It took them years to get it sorted out secure permission for testing obtain the necessary permits and so on Yes it gradually actually changed and even those people tried to recruit emporarily it wasn't the case that those who signed up for two years had to Two years of waiting There were surely people who decided at the last minute Yes that was delayed quite a bit in fact already since 1924 following the departure There were a few yet it kept shifting because people didn't have enoug documents Mareček himself didn't know whether anything would be equipped In the village there were many problems because that emigration to Russia was actually problematic for those authorities although they didn't ban it they did ban that apartme people had to prove they had some money so they wouldn't have to ask for help there Czechoslovak authorities so the entire process including all preparations and the purchase of certain machines Everything from Czechoslovakian technology was in fact lasting and endured as well In the fight perhaps we could briefly summarize what everything entails people had to do before they set ou distribute the inheritance that such different problems and troubles had to be dealt w ask If someone wanted to become a member of Interhelp and actually travel there pierdiska to the Slovak Union so needed to pay a relatively high amou members of the cooperative used those funds to purchase supplies for everyone as well as some machinery and so on So it meant those people had to sell the time of their servants so people for example were selling their actual homes in which they lived in the same mo e main problem with that evacuation was that people had sold their beds mattresses and similar items There wasn't really anyone else around besides himself since those departures kept getting postponed So there were many such logistical problems They were trying to raise some money for the first time so they had something to live on from the credit even though they were counting partly on the fact that the cooperative She'll take care of them herself however the membership was for that period 's quite high so there are many cases where people are selling their homes cabinets furniture or rather at the very least some kind of complete belongings they had And it should be noted that most members of that cooperative were relatively poor workers There weren't that many people with higher education so they wanted to send them away A to actually has a bit of a problem with that cooperative namely that it was originally supposed to be much smaller should focus on agriculture by bringing in some machinery relatively underdeveloped country which at the time was on the edge of the Soviet Union a very poor almost nomadic land and the Czechoslovaks were supposed to bring progress there and you the technology but as it grew and more people got involved so too did eir employment contracts were essentially changed Yet there remained always the problem that they didn't think about it such as architects engineers doctors and the like They of course had some but it often happened that those people during the course of preparation They withdrew their participation or perhaps they were frightened by it Those authorities had at times been quite harsh toward them so that chaos and in fact everything they had to inhabit and in fact leave their work behind The way they had it just as they had it was actually a major problem for many And what was actually at stake with them that they were so fiercely attacked so harshly criticized What was Rujov Mareček actually telling them about Well those travel lectures drawn on the basis of the Kierdiska 's actual contribution essentially sketched as picturesque mountains very often beautiful ones with apples hands on hips and often talked about it saying that when you come here they'll be there If we open up the meadows we 'll get our own land for free We can do whatever we want with it no one will take it from you Just like in Czechoslovakia You won't have to pay taxes or similar fees So they promised them as it was said golden apples too actually stem from that name e book because the newspapers in Czechoslovakia were so critical They criticized the project from the very beginning and were particularly critical of it at they're going to Lenin's Garden those golden apples and that's why In fact those people were so preoccupied that they expected the situation there to be muc simpler than her own life in Czechoslovakia March 25 1925 from Žilina The first convoy is departing Can we say how many people have invested here It was probably mostly Czechoslovaks but how many of them were Slovak Could we possibly estimate that In that first transpor About 300 people or 303 if I'm being precise most of whom were Slovak There were indeed many people from Moravia it was actually where they all originally came from Mareček was from Moravia so he often went back to Moravia spending much of his time there Poles Slovaks Hungarians Subcarpathian Germans and people from Subcarpathian Ukraine were there so it's really a diverse group but those Slovaks still formed their own unit within the collective About 300 people actually showed up that March still essentially in poor weather They lived in some old train car a wooden cozy cabin where they had to first get rid of all the equipment ractors some generators — everyone brought their own — each was allowed a certain number crates not in wooden crates where they had for example terrines warm coverings There wasn't any food available for rationing and in fact they had been traveling for over three and a half weeks from the Soviet Union to the city of Riga there were some wagons where food was cooked for everyone It was really very simple and truly for people who in fact hadn't even left some place before district city and suddenly they set off for the other side of the world I don't know but they say they saw a camel or a tame rhinoceros That must have been such a cultural shock for them to actually see a completely different civilization The real issue was that those people didn't fully understand what awaited them in that cramped space and whether or rather what suits them there so the journey itself was very It was demanding definitely not comfortable— four weeks going through something like that an old wooden train through various stops in that Soviet-era outpost well after those Nearly four weeks ago they arrived under the Tianshan beneath those cliffs into the city of Pishpek Today we know it as Bishkek by then it had already been renamed to Frunze after that Soviet general at that time it was really something do you really want such a hassle it definitely wasn't anything like what we have today Actually we see it differently there—unless I were to return That train is probably full I know it's very full fact cluttered with various tools and equipment if we compare how many times we traveled People and how many wagons there were in fact equipment perhaps we know tha I have it in my notebook but right now I can't recall whether it was half and half They really took a lot of things— everything they could get—for 300 people No because they had it restricted again—that means if you have any quota— You can't fit everything in there if it 's just one or two drawers for a person They thought people were taking some coats some of them were taking them Some of them brought their tools because there were exactly skilled craftsmen there which means you all have your own tools so it was really limited so they wouldn't take everything and that's why they also sold their ow gs that had previously been in place but it could be said that it was quite inconsistent with the government's stance We might say those people bet everything one card losing everything they had at home It's also individual depending on whether people truly do ey had nothing If they were poor and had some very modest income It had happened before that they sold the house and in that case they truly had nothing else left e other case is people who had some property and for example knew Let the rest of the family go and those people didn't have to go through that either selling everything completely wasn't such a problem as it was with the poorer ones At the station they were already waiting as we've mentioned but there was one more unpleasant surprise—that in fact Mr Mareče e told the entire expedition that he wasn't going with them that in fact he had been leading them for years and ultimately On day D I told him I wasn't going with you—that was really kind of him as the biggest shock for those people since Mareček was not only known for his father's thinking He's the main organizer actually another person who was in that region and knew it at least a little and now he's at the station just before the deadline he told me he can't leave because his passport was seized by the authorities a TEDA promise to those people that he would catch up with them that he would take care of it and come after them He actually never arrived anywhere—more precisely not until several years later— and that was a major problem e organizers and those who were still in charge of the cooperative had so little informatio What awaited them there was something they had no contracts for and deep distrust had already set in during the journey itself whether there'll actually be anything there or if Mareček's fooled everyone Of course many defended him saying it had happened anyway and that he could handle it without him ere weren't many people speaking Russian there at the time because In reality those Russian ones would be violated so agreement was only possible in practice in Russian Mareček knew about Růžin but the other team members didn't know that much so from a logistical standpoint it was very problematic that in fact the main organizer and someone who had come up with the whole thing suddenly remained in Žirina while the others left without him Today the capital city of Kyrgyzstan Bishkek has more than a million inhabitants You've already noticed a bit of that ey had planned it but the city looked like this in May 1925 So first of all when they arrived there It was terrible weather there it was snowing and freezing cold despite it being May here That was the main difference between Žilina and the journey that month—so little had changed That is also why those people were so prepared to be there in the first place arsh climatic conditions and they stopped somewhere on the outskirts of Byškeku If the city had been a bit farther they would have had to keep walking ey saw somewhere among some bushes that there were also some barns there Actually just a few buildings because it really wasn 't historically ever a city and the Kyrgyz are suc a nomadic people who frequently dwelled in mountains in yurts and the like and even until fact with the dissolution of the Soviet Union they forcibly resettled them into these areas ey had to settle down and build homes and some sturdy shelters so it was essentially also for their own benef A whole new situation has arisen — and Kyrgyzstan itself was actually very They hadn't developed yet at that time so when the Czechoslovaks arrived the biggest shock was there o one was waiting for him there and no one there fully understood that thoug Interhelpa of course had certain agreements but those agreements only mentioned at we'll lease you a few buildings and some land we'll give it to you free of charge but there wasn't much in that town there were just a few odd characters around perhaps some small government buildings but for the thinking of the cooperative so that everyone would be at some point in order to work together and build some factories they couldn't be divided on multiple villages or at several locations the first thought was that they were to them provided some accommodation but at different locations so it was extremely complicated and therefore in fact the local government did tell them we'll help you however we can but basically you can stay here and you have free land here That's all we can currently do for you so they' ve essentially learned in a relatively short time a harsh environment due to the climate since it's really cold in winter with enormous cold in the depths extreme cold in winter and scorching heat in summer with no preparation for either making the situation extremely difficul The first weeks are tough and they really shouldn 't be living through the first months at all and in fact burn down the government there we also had to talk about how you coped with that bad weather bu It also mentions a certain great dustiness that had fatal consequences Even though they were young they had already experienced traveling to such an exotic country at was a problem for many — for example they didn't like the idea that water couldn't be fully consumed there or rather They weren't used to drinking water that might be somewhat contaminated after all Because it's such a nomadic people they constantly move with horses cows and the like So many childre ey themselves received the virus and various other illnesses along with heavy dust overall when it kicks up it's quite dusty especially around there It's not entirely the most refined part in fact it's somewhat of a relatively dry arid region If I had added that Mareček originally considered that the other guy would completely change his mind elsewhere Also at high risk but with such a large lake as Izikul It's also much more fertile there and perhaps even more pleasant a more fertile origin at the very least yet the fact that the railway ended there That's why they couldn't possibly move all that equipment across half the country e truth is everyone ended up there exactly where they hadn't planned at all and yes It caused many deaths as these of course inevitably led to fatalities You know the worst Mareček did warn those families at first ey would rather children not be taken and originally workers should have gone without families bu and as it turned out in the end entire families settled there unfortunately I think there were more than 20 or 30 children who in essence were in the firs Of those members many perished including several who died in the incident As for those individuals then The new settlers began developing their activities there—how did the local population respond That shock was just as great for the locals because those Kyrgyz had only recently come into power From those places and even now some still lived in those warehouses going there at night and now someone has come who pulled out for example a tractor a to was actually an unknown technology to them something that growled and did whatever it was doing there What did they do a thousand years ago with those plows—turning the soil and the like so many ey also viewed it very negatively that someone had taken their job and especially that perso e tractor is often referred to as some devil's machine and the Kyrgyz really did perceive it that way as if it were truly demonic from that disappointment but many were delighted as it somehow worked out for them Over time it also brought some opportunities and essentially the idea behind the cooperative was develop Ukraine to be as self-sufficient as possible more industrialized and empower Kyrgyzsta en they actually got working time even in the collective farm Interhalpo at least during the first few months exactly like that they had to build everything from scratch so let's imagine from clay They began making bricks which had to be fired and from these they first built houses In the first months fact even the entire first year was often used in such ways that they had essentially just bathed some holes in the ground with some tarpaulin some overall covering and there those healthier and younger ones men used to be and if for example they managed to build some first houses ose first families could not possibly have stayed on and indeed paradoxically those first months saw the Czechoslovaks lived in such an old military camp or prison where soldiers from the past had once been imprisoned Austrian Mountain and indeed the first worldwide war That would be such a paradox that they were there Originally people actually lived in those buildings Perhaps as many as 100 people in a single building and in fact they had to build everything from scratch Build those houses the The factories were crucial because without them it was practically impossible to begin earn money so when they built the first factory I mean I extile so they've already started taking on some orders from that Soviet stockpile from those local authorities Gradually in fact a brewery also emerged there some industrial activities came into being there on the tree and began gradually as if to become self-sufficient but it is actually a process which had been dragging on for more than a year This means that now we are saying that The first year was extremely difficult there were often fires there which destroyed even what they had built so truly minimal The first year and a half perhaps even the first two years those conditions were extremely demanding and in fac at many of those people turned around and left But you say that after a year After two years were they already self-sufficient Partially yes Actually That's a commendable performance Essentially yes they at least knew that they had survived somewhat more comfortable circumstances of course at the beginning it was at ten or more people from the same family used to live together in one room and this gradually began to take shape The real problem was actually the year 1926 when the second transport arrived in Biskupice which was also the largest there were around 700 people there And now with those 700 people arriving all at once the interhotovci still didn't have sufficiently developed capacity to suddenly accommodate such a large number of people again As a result those problems recurred from the first year because we had to start from scratch Those were also the illnesses But I think that for the first year and a half and perhaps up to two years meaning they had already begun actually at the site in 1927–1928 earning money and thus her living situation began to improve slightly A still doesn't mean the situation was simple I remember you and also those people who returned because by their very presence they had Actually there was nothing there so they must have been so desperate in the situation that despite that Without a home or anything else in Czechoslovakia they decided to return was still a friendlier environment and even many of those people sold everything they had there everything they brought like those coats and those quilts they tried everything so they could retur That means in fact Rudolf Mareček' s activities in Slovakia continued so he continued recruiting people and delivering those lectures And on what basis did the second shipment actually arrive a need more workforce to actually develop the factories so based on tha The second transport also arrived and those people didn't have complete firsthand information about what was actually happening there They doubted that when they finally get there things will better despite the fact that many people actually wrote home from the execution transport tha It's not quite finished yet if you come we won't have the capacity so they had to plan accordingly your situation they also needed their own workforce so they could actually establish them expand those factories and workshops so it wouldn't just be a local thing anymore Local production for bees but so that it actually helps what comes there The second transport also included the well-known writer Petr Jilevnícký The most prominent figure who was part of the very first transport was Aleksandr Dubček a prominent Slovak politician who came to Kyrgyzstan as a very young boy with his father His father Štefa first tried his luck in America then returned to Slovakia I'd like to begin with his quote from the book: " In America you can have everything except freedom " The only free country in the world is Soviet Zvezd You might perhaps describe it a little Stefan Dubček had unlike many members of Interhalpa experience of emigration He was in America He was relatively successful as a carpenter there and worked only for good companies In Chicago he was at period There in fact Alexander Dubček was nearly born though somewhat oddly ey therefore decided with their wife to return to Czechoslovakia There was already such a fired-up communist there and yet in that working-class Chicago it was just like that It was quite significant that communists probably also met there e really wanted to return to Czechoslovakia because he saw the emerging state a notion that things in Slovakia are now improving and will continue to go well there at's why he returned thus Alexander Dubček was born already in Uhrovec in that well-known house where also What a paradox it is that exactly the same house yet that economic situatio As I mentioned right at the beginning it was by no means simple and Stefan Dubček very quickly He realized he couldn 't find a good job at home so he began looking into other alternatives e just happened to stumble upon Rudolf Mareček's lectures precisely on that topic It was actually very powerful because there was such strong industrial concentration there mainly in the kitchen and so it got him excited that he as an enthusiastic supporter He wanted to see what the emerging Soviet Union could offer bring it forward and thus following that criticism from the United States a Toho that life there was not easy at all he let himself be very easily tempted yes let's sell everything and actually leave with the children for that little cottage a man who having considerable experience with the construction was particularly knowledgeable about different buildings thereby actually making her into something of an architec a helped the team in some way and without him they wouldn't have made it there There might be bigger issues with members and actually why there was such a relatively long period of existence e internet user no then gradually they left from there and I think gradually first the woman and her son e elder son then Stefan with Alexander gradually moved forward First they left the collective itself Interhalpo because the conditions there weren't any better either before any ideal opportunity arises meaning that when someone receives a better offer or knew he could apply somewhere else or wanted to retur Many Czechoslovaks gradually left feeling undervalued ot everyone fully agreed with the collective itself so Duvček left for the continuation to Nizhny Novgorod where he had a job at the automobile factory Since he spoke English that was an advantage because it was the Ford automobile company at the time so he was there and It's true that his wife and the older son actually left for Czechoslovakia They had some issues there related to a minor glitch and the threat that he might be spied on so that's why they lef Czechoslovakia and then already in the 1930s already toward that as it approached actually during the Second World War in the Soviet Union such paranoia was growing and actually a bit of repression in the eyes of any minority means even among outsiders who had actually worked in the Soviet Union and for that reason they genuinely felt that they did What a great idea to return to Slovakia especially since they had to choose for example between the Czechs o relinquish Slovak or Czechoslovak citizenship and accept only Soviet citizenship whether or not so they decided that in fact along with Alexander Dudček they would return at that time after the first world war I think it was eve a few weeks before the war broke out they came back here to Slovakia Ah so barely by the skin of our teeth—what I heard from some other sources about Alexander Dudák—was that he then had If you had the advantage over the Soviets—because the Soviets treated him as their own—that' s the one who grew up as theirs In the Soviet Union that might have helped him move forward but the year 1968 was even more significant He was truly surprised when they seated him among them after the battle though it was true he had that kind of experience The second issue is that it often raises the question of whether he didn't learn enough given the project and we'll get that too but in the end it probably won't work anyway f you thought he actually had that early experience with communism in the country that was built on As a result many people wondered whether he had actually seen those problems earlier than everyone else But it's true that he took exactly the positive opportunities from it at they actually lived there in a difficult situation but very harmoniously with the other old ones so he also saw that negative side of course mainly when he was some teenager and jus just before the start of the Second World War people had already been relocating here to Byške for example From Ukraine's equator to the villages and thus they could already see the effects of the famine there so he certainly saw the negative aspects as well but despite that he didn't completely let go of those ideas It's quite interesting that later in 1968 some of these collective members criticized him for example Rudolf Mareček in various letters stated that the eyes could not possibly be held in a very negative manner In 1925 came the first transport in 1926 the second in 1928 the third even the third and in the year 1932 the four When exactly did Interhelpo experience its greatest expansion and what diverse activities were involved Was it doing I know for example they made furniture for the Kyrgyz Parliament So that's the biggest success or if we can call it success certainly within those 40 years they achieved quite a bit was earning money for itself and actually supporting the country — it was even a period whe The Interhelpo cooperative produced about one- fifth of Kyrgyzstan's GDP so it was truly in effect extremely successful enterprise built several significant structures there starting with the first bank they later constructed a hospital there e building which至今 serves some ministries was in fact the main government building They brought electricity and water supplies to human settlements there and people dug there so they truly brought some know-how that they actually used in the country's developme so actually those 30 years around the year 1930 when it was actually relatively successful and it actually worked out for those people—they actually had their own homes It was so critical at that point that people were already arriving there in such numbers completed but those transports were much smaller tha e first one meaning that there I think it was there about 60 people then possibly 90 people therefore There's no problem finding them somewhere to stay and the other thing is that they gradually with that goal in mind The cooperative aimed to integrate that local community into the production process for that reason the number of Russians and Kyrgyz people gradually began to increase there members of the cooperative and in fact that share increased gradually until Czechoslovakia formed a minority and partially began to lose actual control over the cooperative itself How many members did Rusvo probably have at its largest scale So in total about a thousand people left from Czechoslovakia and there was a period when with many having already returned by then actually in the 1920s So around those thousand people it was usually and when the eighth grader goes 1400 and indeed it was precisely at that time that people were no longer fully present there as if the club's time had passed ey were working for example so it was a period when they were actually doing quite well but gradually Actually the idea was that over time we might hand those businesses over directly to the state And at the same time as the greatest wave of expansion began in the mid-1930s the situation started to deteriorate There was persecution of the members and leading representatives of the cooperative several were taken to Gulags Where did they all die Why were they persecuted in the first place and why were they taken to the Gulags During that period of the 1930s when the paranoia began to spread Stalin was driven to madness wasn't so much about logic as it was about the emergence of something fundamentally differe even more so the number of people to be imprisoned versus the number to be rehabilitated people who were not Russians and people who were not on their own land were often perceived as suspects This means that paradoxically even the language Ido — and that Esperanto which was initially meant to be with the idea of uniting workers from around the world so they would have one language like the Esperantists They were often the first to be persecuted because they were seen as possible spies As a result it was the team itself that was arrested so I wouldn't say it was just Some primary objective and those victims among the 100 members were not fundamentally a lot but actually because people from Czechoslovakia The fact that they also held other citizenships meant they were automatically considered suspicious At that time the paranoia was extremely strong even among the members of the collective itself The real problem with the entire collective was also its ideology—that power struggles were always at the core From the very beginning many people wanted to make money from it and many of them were actually crying there your ideology in fact stems from those existential reasons ot so important that for example members of the Communist Party as a result people there actually started reporting each other and over those 30 years this happened frequently ended fatally either they were sent to the Gulag or there were cases involving several perhaps en members who were shot dead right inside that brothel so we simply don't know how many people there were because after all those archives haven't been available until now All public and all names are in Moscow but we know that some names from the Interhalp team were found The greater the mass of the threat the more intense that paranoia actually was and that in turn contributed significantly May your dissolution be such a breakup In 1943 the collective was dissolved at the end of the year We can't actually say for sure what the reasons were for it being recorded In essence it was a cooperative formed in accordance with those contracts The factories were closed and gradually those businesses began to be sold off or rather I should say given away at Soviet state was ours and some members defended it saying that after all it was our idea build something here and then integrate it into the Soviet economy But many people took it very critically because it was something they had built themselves They wanted to have control over it and possibly even profit from it but that wasn't entirely desirable at the time so these companies gradually evolved— not just an idea from forty years ago bu fact from the 35th 37 ey handed over to that Soviet economy or rather they helped themselves to everything during that military campaign when the war was turning perhaps in the heart of Nazi Germany It was precisely to these peripheral regions of the Soviet empire that Moscow transferred many enterprises e textile factory produced items such as uniforms for soldiers and various equipme Actually used on the front line so at that time they were also succeeding but they were increasingly integrated o the economy of the country as I mentioned earlier Czechoslovaks were rarely in leading positions and gradually they actually lost control over the team and that the team itself had become in effect just some sort of interhop The official organization was dissolved in that 43 by then it had become nothing more than a slow consequence by the time that came around the collective was real the idea that we all live there f he buried it and said it was ours and were working and it was essentially a Czechoslovak cooperative then it no longer existed At least several years Then still some others former members of the cooperative had tragic fates as I said When World War II ended could you perhaps say something about it Some members of the cooperative perhaps even the younger generation already in fac who was born there or rather grew up in that collective farm They went to fight and actually liberate Czechoslovakia Most of them were members of the Free Army which had actually just come from that area They had some concentration camps right in Duzlup in the region of present-day Kazakhstan Then in fact they went along with the eastern front and many actually joined up o the Slovak National Uprising and many of them actually died there across Dukla for instance I think Dubček's brother also fought there even though he was already gone by the In Slovakia he came from a different direction but it's possible to meet exactly those people there who grew up in Kyrgyzstan — so yes there are indeed several such cases people who had even returned to Czechoslovakia for the first time since they had permanently lef As I said I actually spoke with a woman named Golianová—her brothers fought and one of them died in the Slovak National Uprising and the other one actually made it all the way to Prague and it was the first time it had ever happened because he was I think e had actually been born directly in Kyrgyzstan so after many years he had essentially returned to his homeland er parents And there were those who also fell in the Second World War Definitely yes I might also ask about your motivation for writing this book— we could even show it Utopia in Lenin's Garden a superb book period photographs quotations and contemporary correspondence very well draws you into the story and you feel as if you were there certainly at that time we recommend so in effect How did you get to this point While you were being supported I've always wanted to travel to this region and when I first went there with friends just to take a tourist vacatio I already knew that Interhelpa cooperative existed and that there were some remnants there Czechoslovaks at that peak but I didn't have it quite that well memorized and then a few years later When I was there in that little place I thought to myself that it would have been nice It's possible for that issue to stay in people's minds because that topic was often somewhat manipulated as communist propaganda and presented as an actually very positive example what I'm not saying is that this collective often turns out to be a remarkably resourceful way of doing things and that's how they managed to succeed Actually it was the Czechoslovaks who did it but it's true that it was very often described that way at ideological entanglement and I had the feeling that nobody actually knew about I've never heard of that in my entire life and it's fascinating that actually A century ago a thousand people from Czechoslovakia left everything behind and found themselves on the other end of the continent and there they're going to build some new existence so gradually Actually I started getting interested in this topic by first visiting archives here in Slovakia and the Czech Republic In Prague there's plenty of it but then I came across paněčky on Moravia—exactly Rudolf Mareček who wrote about e also wrote a great many documents and was frequently cited in newspapers despite the fact tha In that case it actually didn' t happen at all—there was just the initial creation but gradually those documents accumulated and I've realized that actually something meaningful can emerge from practice book not just in terms of scope but also because it's no longer just about some a brand-new article because the original motivation was to do some kind of reportage but specifically those fates so fascinating that you could write a feature article about China like this and actually chose to go back to Kyrgyzstan for work a second time I also met some descendants there who were actually They are still alive or perhaps the next generation already is and likewise in that archive In Býškeku in fact most of those documents are still there and can still be accessed there e view from there where I'd spend some extended time is worth ten thousand It's going to take a long time to go through all the documents so I'd better get started but I saw only a very small part of it and actually based on tha I managed to write it down if only in bits and pieces The Czechoslovak story truly began with that mome the context of the Soviet Union right up to its very own dissolution In fact the very existence of that propagandistic rhetoric surrounding socialism is evidenced by the fact that Mr Mareček was precisely the one during socialist Czechoslovakia but in a way he actually drove those people mad doing it during his later lectures a hero who speaks the truth as it is and even visited Interpol and a few years later as well Did they actually accept it Back then even according to those letters I found They didn't worry about it too much because the hardest times had already passed He arrived at a time when things were going relatively well for him and they'd already more or less forgiven him for something like that happening so it wasn't really a significant negative reception and no one took it that seriously anymore but it's true that he mainly did so at a time when Interpol had already ceased to exis you really pushed the idea that he's the creator he strongly promoted it and he had excellent political connections He met President Zápotovský often had photos taken with him and later attended the Interhop meetings In Czechoslovakia and likewise in Kierdysk he was in effect still such a central figure even though he never went through those hardest times with them so he kind of knew how to market it a little e actually wrote about it to the point of death and presented it so vidly that even his grandchildren take it very seriously a positive stance and they found it very difficult to accept that he expressed himself negatively and when I tried that is to find some documents from the archive which would somewhat excuse his behavior so it still follows from that at he was such a schemer I don' t know exactly what he deceived those people with maybe not even that but at the very leas o be well-prepared in advance and then when the worst possible outcome had already occurred it was actually sent off When you were in that Kierdys e local Kierdysi actually perceive this Czechoslovak expedition as mine at the Czechoslovaks brought a certain modern civilization there or something entirely along those lines Could they possibly have felt anything at all when something like that happened Vyškeh is such a neighborhood that still has e name of the alley is that one street where those brick houses are which the Czechoslovaks buil And as I mentioned they also constructed many significant buildings that still stand today and serve their purpose The institutions hold power yet it's true that discussions about this have been scarce Last year marked the 100th anniversary which drew a large number of delegations there ere were some conferences and then all those descendants met yet there was still so little of even if it was just mentioned at all but when you talk like that with ordinary people you'd be scolding yourself s is very much about Czechoslovakia and yet they built farms there which isn't something you'd expec ordinary people kept mentioning them so I feel that perhaps it was also a mistake those too from Czechoslovakia and now even Slovak and Kyrgyz authorities are forgetting that history You can go there to walk around you can for example take a look at the cultural center which the Interhop people built and are there any bulletin boards there with such a monochrome exhibition but it's not really captured there as if fundamentally emphasized what all those Czechoslovaks accomplished for this country yes many viewed it negatively as if they were forcibly imposing something there So did they actually help to transform that hill into a proper structured development large city so I wouldn't really embrace that ideology either but it's true that in fact Today these thoughts and that memory of the interhop are so sweet and actually people there don't notice it much anymore—it's a bit off the beaten pa Are there still any descendants of the Czechoslovaks living there in Kyrgyzstan There are probably a few people there maybe a couple of dozens but they're already the next generation which aren't actually spoken in Slovak or Czech I still ran into them there I was talking to Teda around 2020 about Mrs Golianová who also wasn't speaking anymore I think she was born right there and her brothers were actually the older ones Those who remembered everything but she had already in truth died that many years ago so it's truly the next generation born at a time when either the interhopo was already thriving In those 30 years people still remember it positively on the spot or is it already another generation at my parents worked there and reminisced about so the direct descendants who would experience it are very very few a newer generation is coming up which actually means telling stories and moving forward so that's actually why it's already being questioned Good great thank you I've heard about this topic also earlier but actually I didn't have any information about it at all and then when I finally got my hands on that book it genuinely caught my attention I went through it with its taste and I found it quite enjoyable Thank you for the interview